Amateur repair job for a 1920 Gibson A-2

[mandotrev]

I have an A-2 that has an issue. The back has separated about 1/4 of an inch right where it meets the neck. I think it separated from a dryness issue. I moved to a new apartment recently that has convection heating and I wasn't thinking about my mando. It had been slowly separating before and one day I looked and the heel of the back plate was significantly separated.

I live in South Korea (teach English at a university here) and finding a qualified luthier with vintage mandolin experience here is out of the question. What I am wondering is if I should attempt the repair myself. It's not too warped. Steaming? Soaking? Wood glue? I think I can do it myself if someone is willing to walk me through it. Here is a picture taken with the camera on my monitor. I can post better pictures if necessary, but this should give you an idea of the issue.

Thanks very much. Advice much appreciated.

[Greg Mirken]

The first thing to do, right now, is take the strings off. Otherwise string tension will distort the sides so they won't align with the back. Then, better pictures would be good.

It would be great if someone can refer you to an experienced repairer in Korea.

[MikeEdgerton]

Contact Cafe member Desert Rose (his name is Scott). His profile is here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/member.php?7794-Desert-Rose). He is in Japan but does work with musical instrument manufacturers in Korea as far as I know and he might be able to point you to someone closer to you that would be qualified to do the work.

[Paul Hostetter]

What Greg Mirken said. Perhaps you should investigate some way to get it back stateside to get it set right.

[mandotrev]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have contacted Desert Rose and am awaiting a reply. I loosened the strings as soon as I noticed the gap and it is in its case now with a humidifier in its sound hole.

No one thinks I can do it myself? The trouble with shipping it abroad for repairs is that the mandolin is not a museum piece. Although it plays and sounds wonderful, it was not expensive. I paid $825 for it about 10 years ago. If it is going to cost $400-500 to fix, I would be tempted to just buy another on ebay. The recession has been driving prices down considerably, so it might be a good time to do that, anyway... I am brave enough to attempt the repair myself if anyone could explain the process of soaking the wood or steaming it. I promise to follow directions to the letter.

Much obliged.

[Paul Hostetter]

You don't soak it. You don't steam it. You're really putting it at great risk putting a humidifier in the soundhole.

[mandotrev]

By humidifier I mean a slightly damp sponge with a plastic covering, designed to evaporate slowly. I am certain I am not harming the instrument. If it is not soaked or steamed, how can the wood be reshaped to fit back under the neck?

[Paul Hostetter]

Having been in the instrument repair business for over 40 years, I've seen plenty of instrument damage from spot humidifiers, the ones that go in soundholes, cases, all of them, thanks to people who were certain they were not harming the instrument. Asking "how can the wood be reshaped to fit back under the neck?" is quite simply not a valid question. Your combination of attitude and inexperience is alarming. Do-it-yourself repair prescriptions over the internet in the absence of an actual examination of the instrument would be egregious. You might think it's just a cheap old thing not worth investing in properly—I can't accept that. I see too often the results of misguided amateur repairs that can't be reversed or corrected. It's your instrument. If you insist on wrecking it, it's your choice. But you do have other choices.

[Greg Mirken]

Paul may sound harsh, but he's reacting to the thought of another old instrument being hopelessly screwed up. They aren't making any more 1920 A-2s, and yours has survived for 90 years; it deserves respect. Those of us who have been repairing and restoring old instruments for a long time feel more responsibility to the instrument than to the owner sometimes. This instrument was around before you were, and it will be making music, hopefully, after you and I are gone.
It's hard to tell what's going on from your photo, but it's weird for the back to be pulling away from the neckblock like that. The back doesn't tuck under the neck or anything. It should just close up neatly when pressed down. If moderate pressure doesn't close things up perfectly, you will never be able to fix it yourself. Please give up the notion of steaming or soaking anything; that's just wrong.
Without better pictures it's getting pointless to offer any more advice.

[swain]

Where in S. Korea? Seoul I hope. I might be able to help you find two excellent violin shops. I'm not there now, but might be able to help with directions, presuming you've not visited these places already. PM me.

swain
Vega F, on the bench
pacrim a
Weber YS
Peterson Octave

[mandotrev]

Swain, I PM'ed you, but the message doesn't show up in my sent items. I configured my settings to keep a copy of sent messages...Did you receive it? I'd very much appreciate it if you could let me know of a good luthier in Seoul who is somewhat conversant in English.

Greg, I will try to put up better photos later today, thanks.

Paul, in reviewing the thread, I think I have asked some reasonable questions that make sense given my geographical circumstances and the economics of the instrument's value -- versus repair costs. While your 40 years of experience is laudable, I hope you can use it to help me figure out the best thing to do. My goal here is to explore all my options. I see no sense in taking an admonitory tone here. If a luthier is my only option, I think it makes sense for me to fully understand the work involved before I make that decision.

A slightly damp spot humidifier can damage my mandolin? I haven't heard this before. I have a room humidifier that I can use but don't have a hydrometer.

[mandotrev]

Here are a few more pictures. Thanks for looking. I should add that the neck action is fine. I can still tune and play the instrument as-is. It sounds fine. (I've loosened the strings, though, and won't play it until it's fixed).

Also, I should mention that it probably had a previous repair in the same place. When I bought the instrument, about ten years ago, it looked like there had been some sort of reglue activity in that spot.

[man dough nollij]

Having been in the instrument repair business for over 40 years, I've seen plenty of instrument damage from spot humidifiers, the ones that go in soundholes, cases, all of them, thanks to people who were certain they were not harming the instrument.

Hi Paul,

I've been in environments where in-case humidifiers were an only option. I have settled on an Oasis humidifier under the heel if it's around 20% RH, and an additional one under the head if it's lower. It has worked fantastic, with RH as low as 1% RH in the dorms at McMurdo station. Now that I'm back in the real world, and probably will be for some time, I'm wondering what the risks are of the in-case humidifiers. It's pretty dry here in CO, and I'll keep on using my case humidifiers, but I would hate to induce over-humidity in the location of the humidifiers.

[blueron]

During my searches for luthiers in Thailand I came across a reference to a luthier in Korea. His name is Kim Hee Hong, and his website is http://www.almaguitar.com/. I have no idea how good he is, but his website certainly generates a lot of traffic.

The website is a little opaque, but this information should help you get hold of Mr Kim:

alma@almaguitar.com
is not available now

Please contact here -> almains62@hotmail.com
Fax ++82 43 833 2928

[big smiley guy]

Hopefully any regluing involved hide glue - that will make the repair a lot easier. It always sucks figuring out the mystery glue that an amateur repairman has used.

[mandotrev]

Thanks, Blueron and Smiley. I emailed Mr. Kim along with the pictures I posted here. It is Sunday afternoon here, so I may have to wait a bit for a reply. I will post here what his response is.

What difference will hide glue VS. Elmer's wood glue make to its future prognosis?

[Rob Grant]

Interesting photos Trev, I've never had anything to do with a 1920 Gibson, but it's interesting to see that there is no heel button extending from the back plate. I thought only the Koreans made mandolins like that.<g>

Anyhow, if all else fails and you are facing selling your first born to afford the shipping cost alone of getting this little beast fixed, I think a bit of judicious DIY might suit the situation. Don't use a glue like epoxy or superglue. Carefully squeeze a bit of something like Titebond, Elmer's or even hide glue into the split (maybe work a tad over the headblock surface with a thin blade... just don't get too heavy handed). Then gently clamp the sucker with a G clamp using some thick leather to protect the clamped surfaces. Clean the excess glue which squeezes out while you still can. Then let the thing sit for 24 hours or so. If you use a glue that can later be reversed with heat, I can't see that any repair you do will be equivalent to defacing the Mona Lisa.<G>

[mandotrev]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the suggestion and kudos for being the first one here to think it possible to DIY. The wood is quite stiff. I tried gently pressing down on it to test whether a clamp and glue would do it, but I think I may damage the instrument if I try to force it. That is why I asked earlier about steaming or soaking.

You're in OZ? I am moving to NZ in July. Another thought I've had is waiting until I get down under to have it repaired. I wonder what sort of cost I would rack up and if it would cost more or less.

[Rob Gerety]

I am curious to hear from a luthier what would be the approximate expected cost of repair (range) and if it is possible/likely that the repair would involve a bit of hide glue and skillful clamping? Is that would is probably involved or is it more than that? I know you can't tell for sure without holding it in your hands, but what is your best educated guess?

Is it only the back that has separated? Are the sides still tightly affixed to the neck block?

The other thing you could do is sell it here on the cafe. I bet you could find a buyer with full disclosure. While these teens Gibson's are definitely worth repairing and keeping in good order there are still a lot of them around and on the market here in the US and you could replace it fairly easily at a later date.

I have to say, if it were me, I would not try to repair that myself. I'd want it repaired by someone who has done many similar repairs in the past. Its too nice of a mandolin. But, that's just me. I would be tempted - but I wouldn't do it.

[Rob Grant]

Trev, does it look like the back has separated from the head block and the head block has rotated slightly upward. In other words, has the action changed at all with this separation?

[jim_n_virginia]

I'd take the strings off, put it in a case and then buy another mandolin and play that one and wait until I could get to a qualified Luthier who has a LOT of experience working on mandolins particularly Gibsons to work on the other one.

You usually only get one shot at a clean repair before you gotta pay a luthier to repair the DIY AND still repair the original damage.

Now I'm no luthier but even I know that if there is a separation you have to clean the old glue before you clamp/glue it back so it will go back tight. There could be loose braces near there or neck block slippage.

Get you an nice cheap Eastman oval hole and fix that baby later when back in the states or something. Thats what I would do anyways! LOL! GOOD LUCK!! :mandosmiley:

[mandotrev]

Rob, I am certain that the action has not changed.

Jim, I have a couple other mandolins, so waiting to repair it is a possibility, though I will not be going back to the States any time soon.

I wonder how I can remove the glue? Sanding it?

[Rob Gerety]

My understanding is that the things you are talking about as far as glue removal etc. are exactly the sort of things that need to be left to an experienced professional. I'm told (and I obviously defer to someone who actually does these repairs) is that you use hot hide glue for this repair and assuming there is nothing but hide glue in there now the old glue it may melt during the repair and it may not be best to try to sand on it or scrape etc. I would not jump to the conclusion that you need to scrape out the old glue. I know that would be my instinct as well. But you are dealing with hide glue and its a different animal from modern glue. I really think you will be much better served by getting professional help and making sure that it is done right the first time so you are not left with a mess. Believe me, I understand the urge to do it yourself - but this is a time to resist the urge!!!

I have a small (3/4 inch) back separation in the same general vicinity on my Gibson A. The fellow I use for repairs in my area wants to charge me $50 to reglue it with hot hide glue. I've been putting it off. But after seeing your pictures - I think I'll get it done NOW!

See this re hide glue - http://www.spurlocktools.com/id57.htm.

[Randy Smith]

[QUOTE=Rob Gerety;786952]
The other thing you could do is sell it here on the cafe. I bet you could find a buyer with full disclosure. While these teens Gibson's are definitely worth repairing and keeping in good order there are still a lot of them around and on the market here in the US and you could replace it fairly easily at a later date.

I have to say, if it were me, I would not try to repair that myself. I'd want it repaired by someone who has done many similar repairs in the past. Its too nice of a mandolin. [QUOTE]

mandotrev:

You're getting really good advice from Rob and jim n' VA.

You mentioned you paid $800.+ for the A2. If you spend $400. for repair, you'll have $1200. invested, which you will be able to get back if you choose to sell it. Given the prices of many oval Gibsons are up from ten years ago, not down, I doubt you'll be losing any money. As Rob said, by disclose the repair a Cafe ad if you really want to sell it. It'll probably sell for at least what you have invested in it if not more.

Even better, if you have the mando repaired well, you will probably have a great playing mandolin that you want to keep. It's not going to lose its sound because it was repaired. I have an A2 that's had some sinkage reshaped and its brace slightly adjusted. It still sounds as great as it did before that work was done.

Disclosure: I love these old mandolins--I've got two. Get the work done on it by a professional and play another in the meantime.
But as they say, that's my opinion. . . .

[mandotrev]

Rob Gerety,

Can you give me the email of the email of the guy who gave you the $50 estimate? Maybe I can ship it.

Thanks.

[Rob Gerety]

I will send you a PM. However - the job he quoted for me is nothing like what you are dealing with. Mine was just a short little separation - hardly even opened up. Its a half hour job max. Yours looks much more involved. I would expect it to be much more expensive.

[mandotrev]

I would really like to understand exactly what is involved before I hire someone. The wood has to be shaped somehow. If it is not soaked or steamed, how will a luthier move it back into place before it is glued?

[jim simpson]

The repair or re-gluing of a plate (the back) that no longer matches the sides typically occurs from being in that state for a prolonged period. The approach to repair it is similar to attaching a plate on a build. The sides needs to be held in shape in a form. Some use a form with adjustable padded areas that persuade the sides into the desired shape. Once this has been accomplished, the back should match the sides. I don't know if your back would need to be removed or not.

[allenhopkins]

If you buy that $4K+ F-2 you're considering, you can use the A-2 as a back-up... Whatever it costs to get that separation fixed, it won't amount to $4K!

[mandotrev]

Thaks for the valuable information Jim. If I gently clamped the area with leather over the clamp and slowly tightened the clamp over a period of a week or so, in order to persuade the wood, would I be on the right track?


The repair or re-gluing of a plate (the back) that no longer matches the sides typically occurs from being in that state for a prolonged period. The approach to repair it is similar to attaching a plate on a build. The sides needs to be held in shape in a form. Some use a form with adjustable padded areas that persuade the sides into the desired shape. Once this has been accomplished, the back should match the sides. I don't know if your back would need to be removed or not.

[jim simpson]

I wish I could find a photo of the adjustable mold that I'm thinking of. Attached is a std. Gibson A mold. I suppose a mold that would allow shims between the mold and sides of the mandolin body could be used to get the sides back into shape. Again, protective material such as scraps of leather would protect the instrument.

[mandotrev]

I'm a little confused because the sides aren't really a problem as far as I can tell. The trouble as I can see it is that the wood has warped upward due to dryness, I suspect from a different environment (I moved recently). If the sides do not match perfectly but I am able to glue it with a reversible wood glue, I will be happy. If the job has to be redone in ten years, so be it. I don't think I will cause irreversible damage if I can succeed in getting the wood back to where it was so that I can glue it. Does this make sense? If it is possible to persuade the wood back into position with a slowly tightened clamp over the period of a week or so, I think I am competent enough to accomplish that without damaging the instrument.


I wish I could find a photo of the adjustable mold that I'm thinking of. Attached is a std. Gibson A mold. I suppose a mold that would allow shims between the mold and sides of the mandolin body could be used to get the sides back into shape. Again, protective material such as scraps of leather would protect the instrument.

[delsbrother]

I'm a little confused because the sides aren't really a problem as far as I can tell. The trouble as I can see it is that the wood has warped upward due to dryness, I suspect from a different environment (I moved recently). If the sides do not match perfectly but I am able to glue it with a reversible wood glue, I will be happy. If the job has to be redone in ten years, so be it. I don't think I will cause irreversible damage if I can succeed in getting the wood back to where it was so that I can glue it. Does this make sense? If it is possible to persuade the wood back into position with a slowly tightened clamp over the period of a week or so, I think I am competent enough to accomplish that without damaging the instrument.

This is so strange to be on this side of the issue. Usually threads with titles like this are started by the guy after you, 10 years later.

[mandotrev]

I realize that a lot of luthiers visit this forum and that home repairs are a touchy subject, but frankly, I don't see why I shouldn't try to at least make an educated decision as to whether I should attempt the repair myself. As I've said, If I can accomplish a repair that lasts ten years and does not damage the instrument, I will be happy.

Given my values, is there any reason I should not try slowly clamping the wood back into position?


This is so strange to be on this side of the issue. Usually threads with titles like this are started by the guy after you, 10 years later.

[Rob Gerety]

Good luck. I hope it works out for you. Keep us posted.

I am not a luthier. You comment might be construed to imply that we don't talk favorably about home repairs here because we are trying to line the pockets of luthiers. Not so. Most of these folks have plenty of work. The comments you are getting are based on genuine concern about you and your instrument.

If you were working on a $100 or $200 modern instrument my view of this would be different. In that situation I would be saying go for it - give it a try and if it cracks or something no big deal - buy another.

In my view the value of the particular instrument you have has little to do with the price you paid. It is a small piece of history. I own a similar instrument and I see myself almost as a care taker of a bit of history. I feel I have a responsibility to do all I can do to make it last another 100 years or more. So my feeling is that if I don't have the resources or the inclination to care for the instrument properly then I should not own it. I should own a modern instrument.

Many of us have had the experience of letting our instruments dry out - which appears to have played a role in your case - certainly I know I have. We learn from our mistakes. I am sure many of us have failed to address a small problem and seen it develop into a bigger problem - a small seam separation turns into a much bigger separation (I am sitting on a small seam separation as we speak!). When I make a mistake and I cause damage to a piece of history I feel strongly that I have a duty to put it right. No half measures. I need to restore the instrument to its former self before my error. For me, that means suffering the pain of paying more than I like to pay, and being without my instrument for longer than I want to be without it. That is the price of owning a vintage instrument. It is a burden that I must shoulder. A duty that I as an owner of a vintage instrument must faithfully discharge. If I cannot discharge that duty properly and well (which could well happen down the road) then the answer for me will be to sell the instrument to someone who can, and to buy a modern instrument for myself. Just my opinion - for whatever it is worth.

[mandotrev]

I hear you, Rob, and I do want the instrument to be around for my grandkids. What can I do to rehumidify it, now that it's dry?

As for paying someone, I'd gladly do that if I could gague a cost. I contacted the Luthier in Seoul someone refered me to earlier. No response so far. He may not have the English skills to respond. I also contacted Desert Rose in Japan. Also no response as of yet. There is also considerable risk involved with shipping it half way around the world, as well, no matter how good a luthier I find in the states to fix it. I am not sure it is fair to assume that I don't care about the instrument by trying to fix it myself. Particularly under the circumstances. If anyone here could give me an estimate on fixing it, I would consider it. It's not impossible to for me to ship. I also have the option of trying to find a luthier in New Zealand. I am moving to NZ in July. If I do that, I am wondering how I should care for the instrument in the meanwhile. If not a spot humidifier, then should I use a room humidifier? Spring is here in Korea. It's about 60 degrees today and not dry, though my aparment has convection heating.

Regardless of what I decide to do, I would like to understand the work that needs to be done first, before I ship it out to anywhere. I think that's reasonable.

[Cary Fagan]

As an amateur, I've done just this repair more than once. I had a nice F5 Holoubek that fell and had a seam separation at the base and I've also done it to several older, inexpensive mandolins (including some where the top had shrunk a bit and so didn't perfectly align.) Now it's up to any individual to decide whether he wants to risk something himself but I've always been interested in doing so. In the seam separations, it was a simple matter (as has been said) of using tightbond or other glue, working it in there with your finger, carefully clamping (using protective cauls under the clamps on both ends), wiping any excess glue with a damp rag, and letting it dry. Personally I've never regretted doing it. If you try, just take it slowly and thoughtfully.

[swain]

Seoul School of Violin Making
108105 Plazza, 620 Naeson 1
Kyumggi, Seol
Korea

Phone: 0082 343 256095
Fax: 0082 343 257112
Contact: Won Soon Park, President

[fatt-dad]

(not a luthier)

How will you get the glue in to the seam when you are doing "incremental" clamping? I mean you may get the incrimental clamping to join the pieces of wood, but how will you then get glue in the seam? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'd remove the back, make sure the structure is good (i.e., do any/all regluing that may present itself), regraduate the top (in case it's too thick or such - you know hot rod it), and then glue it up.

That's what I'd do (well, that's what I'd pay somebody to do).

Good luck with the gluing job!

f-d

[mandotrev]

I feel confident that I can glue it well enough -- at least not do any damage to it -- but I would like to know more on the best method of persuading the wood back to its original shape. Should I clamp it, and slowly put more pressure on it? If I hire a luthier and ship it out, what would there technique be?


As an amateur, I've done just this repair more than once. I had a nice F5 Holoubek that fell and had a seam separation at the base and I've also done it to several older, inexpensive mandolins (including some where the top had shrunk a bit and so didn't perfectly align.) Now it's up to any individual to decide whether he wants to risk something himself but I've always been interested in doing so. In the seam separations, it was a simple matter (as has been said) of using tightbond or other glue, working it in there with your finger, carefully clamping (using protective cauls under the clamps on both ends), wiping any excess glue with a damp rag, and letting it dry. Personally I've never regretted doing it. If you try, just take it slowly and thoughtfully.

[Rodney Riley]

If you are really not in a hurry and can wait a while for this mando to be repaired. Why not buy a mando kit with the assembly video. Put it together and get a little knowledge about how all the pieces work together. i.e. neck block, sides, bracing, kerfing, top and back. The sides might look straight and the action may look good. But has the bridge been adjusted over the years to allow for side warpage? Try to get to Dan Erlewine, September 9, 2009 of Stew-Mac trade secrets. This can give you some insight on why so many are hesitant for you to repair this piece of history yourself.

[Rob Gerety]

There are numerous excellent luthiers active here that have a ton of experience with these instruments and this kind of repair. Maybe if you shoot a private e mail or a PM to several of them - with pictures and history - you could get an assessment and rough estimate subject to change when they actually have the instrument in their hands. Just a thought.

I don't mean to be critical. I understand you are in a bit of a predicament. No easy answers. I respect your view - I just don't agree 100%.

With respect to how you can re-humidify - I defer to experts but in the absence of any advise and based on my own personal experience I would probably feel safest putting it in a room or even a closet with a small room humidifier (failing that maybe just a pan of water in a closet set aside and away from the instrument so water cannot get on the instrument) and digital hygrometer and watch it closely so that it is kept at around 50% RH and room temperature for a week or so - maybe forever???? Just my idea - could be wrong. I'm no expert.

[mandotrev]

I took the mandolin out of the case today and had another look at the crack. I also tried to press the wood back with my hands. There appears to be a nail in the wood where the neck meets the back preventing the wood from going back in place. It is to small and narrow to photograph. At first I thought it was the stiffness of the wood that made it difficult to move the wood back into place, but I can see now that there is something inside the mandoin that is obstructing it. Does this make sense? As I said earlier, this part of the mandolin was probably repaired before I owned it, over ten years ago.

[MikeEdgerton]

What you have is the pin that was put there when the mandolin was built to align the back with the neck block. Read about it here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?47705-Old-Gibson-A-3-restoration-questions.&highlight=alignment+pin).

[nobullmando74]

Hopefully any regluing involved hide glue - that will make the repair a lot easier. It always sucks figuring out the mystery glue that an amateur repairman has used.
the worst is a silicone based glue. Really, what were they thinking?

[EdHanrahan]

... I can see now that there is something inside the mandolin that is obstructing it. ... As I said earlier, this part of the mandolin was probably repaired ... over ten years ago.
Sorry, but you ARE they guy that DelsBrother predicted:

... Usually threads with titles like this are started by the guy after you, 10 years later.
As one who's done lots of meatball surgery on cheap instruments, and some VERY careful amateur adjustment of the more precious ones, it's time to call in the professionals. Working around that nail, plus whatever failed glue is in there, would be fairly sloppy, and getting it out could be a VERY tricky.

As others have noted, the world needs all the '20 Gibsons that it has.

[mandotrev]

I've decided not to repair it myself. I contacted a luthier in NZ and sent him pictures. He'll do the work when I am down under this summer.

Can someone walk me through the best method of rehydrating a dry mandolin? What's the best care for this instrument before it is fixed approximately 3-4 months from now?

[Paul Hostetter]

The only reasonable way to rehydrate a dessicated mandolin is to gently bring it up over 40%, or to the local ambient humidity, whichever is higher, by humidifying the entire environment it is in. Meaning, your apartment, or your music room, or whatever—not the case or the instrument's interior. This is as simple as running a simple steamer-type humidifier it's actually dry. If it really is dry in your domicile, you'll see frosty condensation on the insides of the windows when the humidity is better. But you may not need it, unless your apartment is ferociously heated and dry.

According to Google weather, the weather for Seoul, South Korea today is:

8°C |
Current: Overcast
Wind: NW at 9 mph
Humidity: 81%!! <——————

Tue: Chance of Rain
13°C | 0°C
Wed: Clear
13°C | 1°C
Thu:Clear
13°C | 2°C
Fri: Mostly Sunny
15°C | 7°C

Open a window. The back didn't exactly pop because it was dry, it popped because the mass of the back did one thing that it had to do while the neck block had its own agenda. The neck block is a huge chunk of wood, and it's very unlikely any changes in humidity you can inaugurate are going to have much effect. Just get it safely and promptly and directly to a qualified luthier. Good call. I would loosen the strings in the meantime.

[mandotrev]

I heard back from a luthier here in S.K. who said he was willing to do the work for $50. I am a little circumspect. He is primarily a violin maker. What questions should I ask him to make sure he is going to fix it correctly?

[Paul Hostetter]

I heard back from a luthier here in S.K. who said he was willing to do the work for $50. I am a little circumspect. He is primarily a violin maker. What questions should I ask him to make sure he is going to fix it correctly?

Keep looking. There are no questions you can reasonably ask out front. I think you need to have confidence, based on an established record of the luthier in question, that he understands the issues this instrument has and knows how to deal with them. I have two instruments in my shop right now, a Ramirez 1-A and a cello, that were horrendously boogered by violinmakers, ironically and coincidentally both in Germany, who clearly had no clue about instrument repair. Now that they've done what they did, the guitar and the cello are both permanently ruined.

[thistle3585]

Since the OP has decided on a what to do with the instrument, I'd like to steer this in a different direction. The cause and effect so to speak.


My A-2 has done the same thing and I have seen a number of vintage instruments suffering from the same ailment. I've often wondered if kiln dried versus air dried material would prevent this from happening. It seems to be more than just humidity. Would it not be a function of the wood shrinking as it ages simply because its wood and not because of the humidity? Is there a reason that this seems more prevalent with the lower end instruments over the higher end? If I recall correctly, a lot of vintage F styles sub combed to a crack from the scroll to the f hole.

[Paul Hostetter]

I've seen this situation quite a number of times, and I've seen it happen to instruments that spent decades in ideal humidity situations. No swings, no heat waves—just steady aging. Again, the neck block is massive. And the mass of the back where it joins the neckblock is considerable as well. Notice the grain direction.

http://www.lutherie.net/gibson.a.neckblock.jpg

Even under ideal circumstances that joint can go, and when it does, 80 years of wood contraction and shape-shifting occur very quickly and permanently. And the string tension exacerbates the problem. Getting it all back down is tough, and the edges usually never really quite line up again.

Climate control at the plant?

http://www.lutherie.net/gibson.plant.1941.jpg

[Rob Gerety]

The more I read the more I'm convinced I need to get my little 3/4 inch seam separation fixed NOW.

[jim simpson]

Paul,
Was the little positioning nails or pins just long enough to hold the back in place while glueing?

[mandroid]

Ok I'm late to this, {edit}, never mind.. , back to playing my plastic Mix A5, darn near weather proof.

[Rob Grant]

Jim asked:
"Was the little positioning nails or pins just long enough to hold the back in place while glueing?"

Usually the pin is just proud enough to "locate" the plate during the slippery glueing procedure. Although there are some luthiers who do use nails or screws to hold the various pieces of an instrument together. From what I understand even old Stradivari used iron nails to secure the occasional violin neck.

[Paul Hostetter]

Strad wasn't the only one, and the technique was way more than occasional, it was the norm for most makers back then.

Stainer:

http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/Before1800/4548xray.JPG

Guarneri:

http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Violas/Guarneri3354/3354GuarneriViolaNeckHeelXray.jpg http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Violas/Guarneri3354/3354GuarneriViolaNeckXray.jpg

Old Genovese mandolin:

http://www.lutes-strings.de/bilder/Mandolinen/mandoline%20historisch/Genueser%20Mandoline_X-ray_laengsschnitt.jpg

But it's not the same as locating pins, or what we called in the jewelry world refer to as blind pilots. The cut square nails really bit into the wood and acted as clamps. Blind pilots or locating pins simply keep broad gluing surfaces aligned during clamping.

[Rob Grant]

Very interesting X rays Paul. Thanks for posting them.

I've often considered following in the footsteps of a great master like Stradivari. Hell, I might just make my next tool purchase a nail gun!<G>

[mandotrev]

Very interesting xrays. I can't help but wonder how the luthier managed to convince the hospital to let him xray his stringed instruments.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the nails helped increase the sustain of the instruments above.


Very interesting X rays Paul. Thanks for posting them.

I've often considered following in the footsteps of a great master like Stradivari. Hell, I might just make my next tool purchase a nail gun!<G>

[MikeEdgerton]

I can't help but wonder how the luthier managed to convince the hospital to let him xray his stringed instruments....Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the nails helped increase the sustain of the instruments above.

The X-rays probably weren't done in a hospital. There are many other places where they have X-ray machines. As for the sustain issue, it would surprise me greatly if it had any effect at all.

[Paul Hostetter]

The nails were a tool that had to be left in place, plain and simple. Maccaferri used something similar for attaching his guitar necks, a screw, but could remove them after they'd done their job.

Most of the x-ray projects (and CT and other kinds of scans) I know of are being done in hospitals. John Thomas (http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/562082493foUtDI), the Gibson guitar expert (who's an attorney), and Steve Sirr (http://www.vanzandtviolins.com/Amati_CT_Scan.htm), an MD in Minneapolis, are two leading examples. I think (but I'm not certain) that the Cité de la Musique in Paris has its own x-ray facilities.

http://image69.webshots.com/169/5/1/92/2903501920033810361gMUIvl_ph.jpg

http://image65.webshots.com/765/1/61/98/2110161980033810361eASKPo_ph.jpg

[Paul Hostetter]

The nails were a tool that had to be left in place, plain and simple. Maccaferri used something similar for attaching his guitar necks, a screw, but could remove them after they'd done their job.

Most of the x-ray projects (and CT and other kinds of scans) I know of are being done in hospitals. John Thomas (http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/562082493foUtDI), the Gibson guitar expert (who's an attorney), and Steve Sirr (http://www.vanzandtviolins.com/Amati_CT_Scan.htm), an MD in Minneapolis, are two leading examples. I think (but I'm not certain) that the Cité de la Musique in Paris has its own x-ray facilities.

http://www.lutherie.net/gibson.l-o.on.xray.table.jpg

http://www.lutherie.net/gibson.l-o.xray.jpg