Texas Swing Mando

[MikeB]

I almost dread the answers I expect to get to this....or perhaps I should I say I dread my inability to understand them?

I just came from Scott T's "Texas Swing Mandolin" chord page here at the Cafe. #I've seen this sort of thing before and have heard a fair amount of swing music. #But, for the life of me, I cannot make sense of how to apply this chord "progression" or "pattern" to any tunes I know. #Scott suggests that his patterns work for tunes "like" Sally Gooden or Katy Hill, and even some Celtic tunes. #

Now, this totally stumps me. #How can the same chord progression work for tunes that I know are not played with the same chords in a non-swing style?!?

Am I just "swing challenged" or stupid, or what?!? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[archie]

I know how you feel about finding those chords unfamiliar...if you're used to the bluegrass or old-time versions of those tunes, you must wonder how on earth they fit. What really helped me was sitting and listening to Texas fiddle versions of some of those songs, such as "Grey Eagle" and "Sally Goodin." They do it differently down in Texas, in both lead and back-up, but it's terrific music. Mark O'Connor's old record with Texas Shorty and Benny Thomason (with Jerry Thomason playing those hot accents on tenor guitar) is a great one. Give it a couple of listens, and then Scott's chords will make more sense. Playing that rhythm up to speed is a different matter, though.
-archie

[Mike Bunting]

I see it like this; chord progessions are not written in stone. Sally Gooden e.g. is a melody line which can be in any key. Chords in a key are built upon the scale of that key. Sally Gooden is usually played instrumentally in the key of A and can be played with no chords, one chord, the tonic, A major, with 2 chords (oldtime and BG) A and E. Styles of music have chord changes attached to them and swing is no different and it likes to use more "sophisticated" changes, most of which are chords based on the scale in which the tune is played. Listen to Bob Wills play Sally G and listen to Bill Monroe play it. You can probably hear that it is the same tune, listen again to hear the different ways of presenting that melody and how it interacts with the chords played behind it. Listen again, have fun.

[MikeB]

I knew it would go about like this. #Thanks, you guys, but I still don't get it.

Scott says those chords can be used on tunes LIKE Sally Gooden, suggesting the same chords could be used for other tunes. #There is a fundamental point I am missing and I am unable to express the right question, I guess.

Yes, I have heard many tunes played BG style and swing style. #I hear the differences, but cannot understand how the swing chords are chosen, how a given pattern of swing chords can serve different tunes (not many standard tunes have the exact same chords or progressions), or much else.

In Scott's example, he gives the chords for the keys of G and A. #I would at least expect the relative chords in both examples to be the same, e.g., #a diminished 7th in the G set would match up with a diminished 7th two half-steps higher in the A set, but nope, they don't--not entirely, anyway. #

I just don't get this.

[ShaneJ]

In Texas Swing, you won't "dwell" on a chord more than a couple of beats. Think of how a tune would sound with a guitar and mando chopping the chord while a bass "walks" a bass line. Now, focus on the walking bass line and play a chord that fits each note of it. That's getting closer to the Texas Swing chord progressions. It IS different and, at times, tough. But it sounds cool.

[ethanopia]

Here is an idea check out the end of Uncle Penn when Ricky Skaggs and Co. play it. They add that little bit of the swing chords you are talking about.

The tune is Jenny Lynne.. Now for the first part of Uncle Penn its played with a I and V chord progression. But at the end of the Uncle Penn when they play Jenny Lynne the last times they swing it, and ad in a bunch of of those "jazzy" chords. My band does it like this too and it really opened my eyes to how the harmonized scale works...truly incredible from a mathmatical theoretical standpoint. A tune can be played with one set of chrods or another and still sound the same and different all at the same time!

[MikeB]

A tune can be played with one set of chrods or another and still sound the same and different all at the same time!

Ummm....what? #I'm feeling like the only kid in class who doesn't have any idea what the teacher just said. And I'm sort of wishing I hadn't raised my hand....

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[odeman]

Jethro Burns ( of Homer & Jethro ) was a master at these types of swing chords. Instead of 4 finger "block chords" normally played in a bluegrass setting, he played 2 and 3 finger "comp" chords like a jazz musician. There's a couple of his instruction books out there, co-written with Ken Eidson (sp?) that are fairly simple to follow. I think they were published by Mel Bay.

[Paul Kotapish]

Mike,

I can understand your confusion about the issue. Until you've actually heard the same tune played with several different accompaniment styles, it might be difficult to grasp how different sets of chords might go well with the same melody.

This is one of those cases where--as David Byrne once quipped--writing about music is a bit like dancing about architecture. You won't make sense of it until you experience it with your ears.

If you have access to the iTunes website, you can do a search for a couple of the tunes Archie suggested--"Grey Eagle" and "Sally Goodin"--and hear sound clips of a dozen different versions of each ranging from unaccompanied old-time settings to bluegrass settings to swing settings with a typical "sock-style" swing accompaniment.

Listening will help, but better still would be for someone to demonstrate for you just how it works. A guitar player with a lot of experience accompanying a variety of styles should be able to give you a feel for how one can apply a swing-style progression to a variety of tunes--or conversely--how the same tune can have a really different emotional feel with different accompaniment styles.

One thing to remember in all of this is that the fiddle-tune traditions are much, much older than accompaniment. There are a lot of tunes still being played that are hundreds of years old, and for most of that time, they were played without chords of any kind. Guitar (or mandolin or piano) accompaniment on fiddle tunes (dance tunes such as hoedowns or reels or jigs, etc.) is pretty much a 20th C. development, and there have been many approaches over the years.

In New England, for example, accompaniment patterns tend to be carefully tailored to the contours of the tunes, with plenty of passing chords, relative minors, and elaborate cadences, whereas in Appalachia the patterns for some of the same tunes are often much more straightforward and typically devoid of any minor chords. In Ireland, where DADGAD tuning for the guitar prevails, the accompaniment can be more impressionistic with lots of modal drones and alternative voicings. In the Western contest style of accompanying fiddle tunes, the swing groove trumps all, and variations of the same handful of basic patterns are adapted to fit the quirks of the different tunes.

And with every style, of course, there is a huge range of opinion as to the which accompanists are most appropriate in their choice of chords and rhythm.

One other aspect that makes it tough to develop an appreciation for subtleties of accompaniment on fiddle tunes is that there are that there are so dang many of them and they all share so many similarities.

When I first started playing an accompanying fiddle tunes I was bewildered because all the tunes sounded the same to me and I had a devil of a time keeping track of them all. After a few years I developed my ear more and was delighted to realize that each tune was a little jewel with its own sweet, individual personality. Now, thirty-some years and thousands of tunes later, I realize I was right the first time! They are all the same . . . . . . . . only different!

Hang in there, Mike, and as you listen to is more, it will all start to make sense.

PK

[MikeB]

Thanks, Paul, for taking the time to write all that. I am an ardent admirer of your work, and one of many beneficiaries of your wisdom at this site.

I appreciate everyone's help and encouragement, of course, and apologize for my slow wittedness (is that a word?). It always helps me most when someone really seems to understand how difficult and confusing this stuff can be. Just saying that makes makes me feel better, maybe not so thick-headed afterall.

I think I'll set up a lesson with the best guitar teacher we have here in town. He happens to be among the best I ever heard play, too. Maybe he can help me make sense of this.

Plugging away,
Mike.

[lightningbug]

Mike B
Thanks for this thread. Until you brought up the question, I didn't know what I didn't know. I'm going try playing some of these tunes over the chord progressions to see how they work.

[MikeB]

Will wonders never cease?!? #It works!!!!

I went through a bunch of tunes I have in a sort of midi format (Melody Assistant .mus files, actually) and played Scott's swing chords (OK, I know he didn't invent them) against them. #Danged if they didn't sound pretty cool a lot of the time! #(Mama? #I can SEE, Mama, I can SEE!!!)

Almost.

Some tunes definitely worked better than others. #And, it felt like sometimes a certain tune would have worked better with some minor modifications in the chords, modifications to which I have not a clue.

So, right now, it feels like magic trick that works some of the time, but for reasons I do not understand. #When it doesn't work, I don't know why, either.

Am I asking too much of this board to try to take me to the next step? #You guys got me this far....Or do I still need the services of a professional?

I still don't understand why the G set of chords is different from the A set, chord for chord. #That part leaves me baffled, unless one was just a variation that also works, and thus, I *could* try substituting a B7 for the Bm in the A set of chords....

And how do you know if a particular tune will sound any good this way? #I would not have guessed Sally Gooden. #I put swing chords against Cronin's Hornpipe, and about knocked myself out with how well they worked!

So, I'm excited. #I learned SOMEthing today. #I'm just not sure what.

Thank you all for your contributions, again. #I LOVE THIS SITE!! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[250sc]

When I play these types of progressions I tend to think of what a bass player would play while walking from one chord to another. The walking line normally consists of quarter notes that lead to the next chord. If you listen to the 'swing' chord progressions they follow the same tones that the bass walks through. The trick is to know what the chord is that your walking to. It is often a I, IV or V chord.

Once you get the hang of it you can use this technique to boost the energy while accompaning a solo.