Vivaldi fingerings?

[rosenthal]

Hi All,

A friend and I, relative beginners, are working on the Vivaldi double mandolin concerto. I'm curious about how one sorts out the right fingerings. If there is anyone out there who has polished this piece, I'd like to know how you finger measures 80 through 86 of the Mandolin 1 section. I can't decide when to play the notes all on the e string vs when to cross pick between the e and the a strings. I'm also not sure I like the sound my Mandolin makes when I get to a high b on the a string.

In fact I'd also be interested in hearing how well various people's bowlbacks sound up the neck...

Thanks,

Peter Rosenthal

[vkioulaphides]

Peter, it's hard to imagine any work from that period climbing up to the 14th fret; not impossible, of course, but unlikely, considering the instruments of the time. Having said that, present-day performers might choose to use "non-period" fingerings.

As for high positions: Both my vintage instruments (1897 de Meglio, post-1881 Ceccherini) intonate impeccably all the way up: The de Meglio is a wee bit higher action-wise than I would call "structural perfection"; the Ceccherini is indeed flawless up there.

My 2004 Calace, being essentially brand-new, is both perfectly in tune and buttery-soft all the way up to the stratosphere. Whether yours truly is capable of playing well up in the nosebleed-region is a whole other story, of course... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

What is it that you are less than happy with? Is the action too stiff (likely), are the high frets worn out (UNlikely), is the intonation off? I am sure others might have similar experiences and therefore helpful suggestions for you.

[rosenthal]

Hi Victor,

Thanks for the reply. I think my questions come from being an isolated self taught amateur in the Hartford tundra. I've quite a bit of access to violin cello and bass instructors, but none of them have much to say on the topic of classical mandolin.

Regarding the sound of my Vega at the high frets. I would have to say that the sustain dies quite sharply, especially on the two lowest strings. To a lesser extent it happens on the a and e strings as well. It might be that the spacing between the frets is getting smaller than my finger pads, and its my fingers doing the muffling.

Now, as to the Vivaldi, I noticed that that particular passage lends itself to climbing up the neck in a climbing scale with the fingers following a repetitive pattern. The scale starts with the first finger on the e string third fret, and the second and third fingers playing a d and e on the a string. Over the next few bars, I climb up to playing the 10th fret d with the first finger and the a and b up on the 12 and 14 frets.

I'm wondering how someone who has had some formal method training would finger this. Is there a way this section is "supposed" to be played?

Thank you

Peter

[margora]

If by Hartford tundra you are referring to CT, there is, in fact, classical mandolin in the area -- maybe not immediate, but close, as in Providence, RI, the Providence Mandolin Orchestra. www.mandolin-orchestra.org

[Jim Garber]

Peter, it's hard to imagine any work from that period climbing up to the 14th fret; not impossible, of course, but unlikely, considering the instruments of the time. Having said that, present-day performers might choose to use "non-period" fingerings.
Am I mistaken that this was not originally written for the Neapolitan mandolin? I seem to recall that in which case all bets are off as to the original fingering.

I would stick to the logical and easy to play using the e and a strings, starting from 2nd position and going up to that 14th fret. It is also a repeating pattern of fingers 1 and 2 and 1 and 3. The other way seems much too choppy -- I would think in this passage you would need to maintain rhythmic steadiness above all and using the ringing of the notes with each other.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Also, our own Mark Levesque lives and plays in the Hartford area.

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Jim, you are correct in that that Vivaldi wrote for the mandolino, and not the Neapolitan mandolin. While his music is certainly playable on instruments tuned in fifths... this is not what Vivaldi intended.

All of Vivaldi's mandolino music takes good advantage of the gut-strung mandolino tuning in fourths (low pitch to high: G, b, e, a, d', g') and played with the right-hand fingers. Of course,this music is rarely played in this fashion today... but for a few of us fanatics...

Eric

[Jim Garber]

Eric, Eugene or anyone else:
Which in your opinion is the best recording available of Vivaldi on mandolino?

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

As for high positions: Both my vintage instruments (1897 de Meglio, post-1881 Ceccherini) intonate impeccably all the way up: The de Meglio is a wee bit higher action-wise than I would call "structural perfection"; the Ceccherini is indeed flawless up there.
Ditto for my Ceccherini -- intonating fine right up to the 17th (though not a lot of sustain there). The Rinaldi (which may or may not be a de Meglio in drag), however, at the moment goes sharp on the higher frets (noticeable from about the 10th fret). I'm still in the first week of getting the setup right, though, and there's still a lot of fine-adjusting of bridge position and action to be done before I accept that this is the best possible intonation. My problem at the moment is that the bridge is as far back as it will go, but I'm still fretting sharp. If the bridge won't go further back, then lowering the action (which is nicely playable now, but still has some leeway) should in theory have the same effect of lowering the fretted notes down to pitch.

Martin

[etbarbaric]

Hi Jim,

Oh darn it... where is that old thread when you need it... This has been discussed before... but I can't find the thing.

Sadly, there are not many recordings of the Vivaldi works on original mandolinos... and fewer still using finger-style technique.

1) James Tyler and Robin Jeffrey recorded the three concertos that use mandolinos on Vivaldi: Concerti "Alla Rustica" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000024BS0/qid=1095546321/sr=1-31/ref=sr_1_31/103-2191641-4163057?v=glance&s=classical). It seems that now the double-concerto and the " Concerto for Diverse Instruments" have now been re-released on a Duetche Gramaphone album entitled Panorama: Vivaldi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004XPU9/qid=1095546183/sr=1-11/ref=sr_1_11/103-2191641-4163057?v=glance&s=classical). You can listen to samples on the Web at various sites.

2) Paul O'dette recorded the single and double mandolin concertos on a reproduction mandolin on his 1980s Vivaldi recording... but he chose to use a plectrum... which I don't much care for.

3) Also Il Giardino Armonico recorded these works as well... on Vivaldi - Concerti per Liuto e mandolino (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000000SK4/qid=1095545307/sr=1-39/ref=sr_1_39/103-2191641-4163057?v=glance&s=classical). I don't remember whether they used fingers or a plectrum... possibly the latter. These guys are always fun for something different (read fast and varied playing!)...

I would recommend 1 and 3, probably in that order...

Eric

[etbarbaric]

And of course, germane to the initial post, because the mandolino has a top string pitched to a high g', most music it (including Vivaldi) never leaves the first position...

Eric

[Jacob]

Has anyone tried mandolino tuning on a modern six-string mandolin such as a Gibson (http://www.gibson.com/products/oai/mandolins/m6.html) or a Gold Tone (http://goldtone.com/products/pages/gm-6.asp)?

[Jim Garber]

Eric:
I think that this (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=15401;hl=vivaldi) is the thread you were looking for.

As far as mandolino tuning... interesting... does the Gibson and Goldtoe have a std mandolin scale? I would image in you would have to tune it with metal strings tho as opposed to gut/nylon.

Jim

[Eugene]

Wow, I was actually at a music gig today. #I step out for a weekend afternoon to miss a heap o' good fun. #I essentially would only have echoed what Eric already has offered.

In spite of the fact that they use quills, I really like Il Giardino Armonico's Vivaldi CD. #This isn't a "play-along" for most players reading along, however, because they do not tune to the modern standard of A=440 and they are excessive on ornamentation in the repeats.

I have not handled a new Gibson 6-string mandolin. #To get them up to an open high g", one would need extremely fine strings. #I'd be curious if any owners of such things opted to experiment.

[Jacob]

Jim, the Gold Tone six-string has a 13.75 inch scale and the Gibson website doesn't list the M-6 scale length.
Both models are designed for steel strings.
Using Doug Dieter's Universal String Tension Calculator (http://www.kennaquhair.com/ustc.htm), I figured a .009 inch string for the high G (g'').
This would approximate the tension of an .011 inch string tuned to normal high E (e'').
A theoretical steel mandolino set might be .039, .030 and .023 wound with .016, .012, and .009 plain strings.

[Eugene]

Excellent, Jacob. It sounds like you need to plan a shopping trip, eh?

[etbarbaric]

Hmm... I have to admit that this direction makes me cringe a bit... This is delicate music meant for gut strings and playing with the fingers (not shiney Gibsons painted red) In general I'd like to get closer to that earlier aesthetic... not farther away. I think you also might be pushing technology a bit... if not your finger-tips... more like a mandolin of the slicing/dicing variety. And of course finger-style play would likely not be workable on metal strings at this high tension... You see... I'm really not very much fun at all! :-)

However, there is another option... tune one of these six-stringed things like they recommend (an octave above the guitar) and play Paganinni! His mandolin pieces were written for the mandolino Genovese (Genoese mandolin) and it was tuned in E, to the intervals and pitches of an octave guitar (albeit, double coursed).

Having said all that, I must admit that I was *just tonight* forced to buy a shiney metalic purple child-sized guitar for my 2.75-year-old daughter (I made her *very* happy!)... though it will be a while before we're considering Vivaldi... Maybe I'll start her on Paganinni first...

Eric

[Eugene]

Octave-guitar tuning is, as you've said, that for which the Gibson 6-stringers were intended...although I'd wager the characters to concoct them never considered branding them modern mandolino Genovese. #Too bad.

I very much like early music on the instruments for which it was intended. #However, I'm not so frightened by the notion of playing Vivaldi on a shiny red Gibson. #It's certainly not my kind of thing, but I wouldn't regard it as any different than a Vivaldi violin concerto being performed by I Musici, Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, or any other assemblage of modern strings. #It would be just another modern-instrument interpretation. #Another example: I play quite a bit of de Visée guitar music. #While I favor the sound and techniques associated with courses of paired gut strings, I don't take issue with playing the music on the modern instrument using modern techniques. #In playing it on modern guitar, I approach it as transcription even though it was composed for an earlier incarnation of guitar.

[Jim Garber]

I guess this is the equivalent of the folks world's term "traditional." I played in an old time band for some time many years ago. Plyed fiddle and mandolin but also played a few Carter Family tunes on autoharp. One guy came up to me after the concert to complain that my autoharpo was not traditional because it had too much plastic and 21 buttons. Of course, the autoharp was a non-traditional instrument altogether even for folks back when the Carter family played. it is all relative, i guess.

On the other hand my preference would be to hear the Vivaldi's pieces on instruments that he wrote for. Besides something about those 6 sting "mandolins" makes me nervous -- an not just because they are not "traditional."

Jim

[Eugene]

Autoharp!? Your story smacks of scenes from A Mighty Wind.

[etbarbaric]

I did just attempt some lute music on my daughters new $12 metalic purple guitar so I guess I can't carry the purist flag today... :-) (maybe tomorrow) Unfortunately the nut, frets, and bridge are all bad jokes... Hmm... lets see... file off the frets... put on gut frets... gut strings... A metalic purple vihuela with a decal for marketry? How do you think that would fly on the lute list this week Eugene? :-)

[Eugene]

Indeed...

[Eugene]

PS: My Martin sounds just fine on up the neck, Peter. Your mandolin should to. You may need a bit of set up.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"...this was not originally written for the Neapolitan mandolin... in which case all bets are off as to the original fingering."

Indeed. Once again, I fell victim to my own, boorish Neapolitan-or-Nuthin' prejudice. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I admire you all. As for myself, I am still struggling to play the, ehm... common little critter on a somewhat more proficient level than I do currently. And, by the time that level is reached —if ever— my next project will be of a geriatric nature. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Ars longa, indeed...