Mandolin in the white

[peterleyenaar]

To the Luthiers who visit this forum

Does a mandolin in the white sounds better then a mandolin with a finish, varnish or lacquar, in other words does a finish
contributes to the sound of a mandolin in a positive way or is a finish merely a series of protective layers, not improving the sound of the mandolin ?
Thanks
Peter

[Chris Baird]

A mandolin sounds different in the white. Whether it sounds better only YOU can say as what sounds good it relative to individual preference. I prefer the finished mandolin to the white but I would venture to say that a big part of what I find sounds good is what I'm used to hearing. I am used to hearing mandolins with a finish on. Oil varnish seems to darken the tone where as lacquer and shellac(completely f.p.) will sound a bit brighter to my ear. Of course, the other thread has already driven the varnish/lacquer debate into the ground and needs no further revisitation.

[Charlie Derrington]

This is opinion, so please view my statement in that context.

I don't like the sound of a mandolin in the white. The only description I can give is that they sound "too" open, loud, and brash. I don't know of any other way to describe it.

Charlie

[lindensensei]

Mr. Derrinton,
The finish on the F9 is very thin, I've worn through it with just my fingetips in only about 4-5 months. #Does thiis very thin finish get put on mandolins that are built specifically to be finished this way, (mandolins which are not quite so loud or open) or could an F9 still have such wide open sound if it were varnished or lacquered to a gloss finish? Thank you

[Dave Cohen]

The first article which I referenced on page three of the varnish/lacquer thread addresses this issue specifically. In it, among other things, Mr. Schleske followed modal frequency changes as each coat of varnish was applied to a violin. He also made many other observations, such as the changes in the velocity of sound in spruce strips followed over periods of years. He looked at such things as the effect of absorption depth into the wood, the drying process, and he touched on varnish recipes of all types, i.e., "spirit", "essential oil", and "fatty oil". If one really wants to know what varnishes do and how they do it, Schleske's article is a must.

[Stanley Cox]

How many of you Luthiers string up to pitch in the white?
If so than at what point during the finishing do you string it up again?
Stanley

[lindensensei]

Actually, Dr. Cohen I was really wondering if the woods and materials in an F9 are equal to a Master Model, and if the binding and finish are fundamentally the main reason for the much higher cost. #Or are the woods not equal and hence the thinner coat, the more...etc.

I doubt I could stay awake long enough to read an acedemic article about finishes... I'm really looking for more of an answer in the lines of yes, no, or sometimes.

[Spruce]

OK...

"Yes", "no", or, in some cases, "sometimes"...

[lindensensei]

Let's see, Spruce... Do you represent Gibson OAI?

[Chris Baird]

I don't represent Gibson but I do know that material selection is for me the most important step I take in construction given the difficulty in changing other things. There are some quantifiable variables that can be measured and have a very direct effect on tone. I would guess that the wood for the A9 is just the top of the pile where as the master model wood is tested and carefully selected for its acoustical properties. Not to mention being a different species.

[Dale Ludewig]

Re: stringing up in the white-
I string every instrument up in the white for a number of reasons. First, I get all the hardware mounting done and action set up before finish goes on, so that if I (and I will) mar the instrument slightly, I can sand it off. Then when the instrument is completely finished and buffed out the hardware goes right back on and you're in business.
Another main reason I string up in the white is that you can adjust the neck shape while there's strings on. Templates probably work for a lot of people, but I like to know what the instrument is going to feel like with strings on and adjust the neck shape accordingly. I even had a customer come to my shop recently (she only lives about 90 minutes away) to play her mando in the white, and I could adjust the neck shape while she waited until it was just what she wanted.

Just my thoughts.

[Spruce]

"Let's see, Spruce... Do you represent Gibson OAI? "

That is so funny...

"...I do know that material selection is for me the most important step..."

It's all in the wood... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dale Ludewig]

"Let's see, Spruce... Do you represent Gibson OAI? "

That is so funny...

"...I do know that material selection is for me the most important step..."

It's all in the wood... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yes, Spruce- it's all in the wood. <g> Even the flaws built into an instrument. It's all in the wood. Talent can be set off to the side. <g>
Just to be serious for a moment, Spruce does find and market some remarkable wood. Bruce, you expend a lot of energy finding and cutting some remarkable pieces of material.

IBMA is a'comin'. Can you bring some with you, or are you flying? Maybe a slab or two, checked as baggage?

[Spruce]

I might send out a box or two, Dale...

But I'm really looking forward to just packin' a mando and pickin' my brains out that week...
Didn't get to too many festivals this past summer and need to make my fingers bleed... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[lindensensei]

C'mon, guys, my wife sneaks in an' reads this. Gimme' an answer...

[Charlie Derrington]

Dan,

So many questions, so little time.

We try to apply the finish on all of our mandolins as thinly as possible.

Yes, the wood selected for the 9s is not as expensive as the wood for our top-of-the-line models. But, that's not the only reason they are less expensive. We use different glues, there is no scraping or buffing, etc.

If you've already worn a spot on your top, I would suggest a couple of things.... One, don't worry about it. Two, if you do worry about it, change your playing style or add a pickguard. I had to learn that lesson the hard way on my first Loar. I changed my right hand style and re-installed the pickguard.

The main (and I stress main, because there are indeed other reasons) reason for the varnish models being more expensive is indeed the varnishing process.

Hope that answers your questions.

Charlie

[lindensensei]

It Does, Mr. Derrington. Thank you. I bought a new F5L as a result of your answer. My 3rd F model. Someday, maybe, an MM...

[Charlie Derrington]

My dad was Mr. Derrington, I'm just Charlie.

And thanks very much.

[HoGo]

I've got three mandolins in the white now (actually two of them are already getting their varnish) and I recorded their sounds just to hear the difference. I'll post the clips of white vs. finished mandolins in October.