Luthier Schools in Times of Recession

[delsbrother]

Reading this article in the NY Times (http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109081/in-hard-times-lured-into-trade-school-and-debt) online has me more wary than ever about leaving my job to go to Luthier School (most likely RV).

What is the climate out there really like? Are there any former grads getting work nowadays? Any pros hiring grads (specifically) to help out?

I find myself on both sides of this - I work in public education and my job is always in jeopardy. Every day there are more and more job listings for teachers at these trade schools - reading that article makes you think about what the real commodities are...

[...and Master of None]

I've never been impressed with the schools that are little more than drains designed to syphon government loans. I've known some people who taught at such places, and I wasn't very impressed with them, either. The old phrase "he who can't do, teaches," comes to mind. One woman, supposedly the proud owner of a shiny Phd, was teaching C programming at one - she kept coming to me and a couple of others in my department to ask questions that anyone who has even taken a single "introduction to programming" class would know the answer to. In fact, my kids could have answered most of her questions and their only exposure to programming was a basic introduction to computers that was required at their high school.

Fortunately, I've rarely had to work with graduates of those schools because most places I've worked won't even interview them. My current employer will at least grant them a pre-screening telephone interview. I usually conduct those interviews for my department and you'd be floored by some of the idiotic responses I get to simple questions - responses from people who supposedly have a "degree" in programming.

As for luthiery, I think in the current economy it doesn't matter how good the school might be. Very few people would consider a custom hand-built instrument a necessity, yet most sales of such aren't going to the uber-rich who tend not to be too heavily impacted by a downturn. So, you've got an item that is a luxury, the demand for which depends heavily on an upper-middle class with disposable income. I don't think I'd quit my day job to jump on that band wagon right now! Oh, I imagine that established luthiers with full waiting lists are not going to starve any time soon, but I doubt that they're going to be rushing to hire assistants, either. At least, not at the kind of wages that one needs if one intends to pay back student loans!

Just my $0.02. (BTW, I work for the premier "for profit" educational company in a regulated industry. Little, if any, of our business comes from government loans. Most of our students' training is paid for by their employers - I guess I'm biased but I think that's a good indicator of whether a for-profit operation is legitimate or not.)

[Big Joe]

Most of the so called Luthiery Schools are not much value for the to be professional. You don't get enough experience with anything to have the skills to do the work needed. You are better to serve an apprenticeship with a good luthier and be prepared to learn the skills from the bottom up, and not worry about how fast you will build an instrument. Learn the instruments and then the tools and then how to use this information, and then you may be qualified to try building an instrument. Building can be a good way to learn but often is used as a gimmick to get your money and leave you with a poor quality kit guitar and not any real skills to do luthiery for a living. Just my opinion, but I've seen many student "graduates" and have not seen any that really knew what they were doing or prepared to do real work. Unfortunately, they did not always understand they had no idea.

[Graham McDonald]

The best experience for building instruments is to repair them. I would suggest that you have a much better chance of making a living as a builder and repairer of stringed instruments than you would just building them. Having the opportunity to repair a whole range (in quality and price) of guitars, mandolins, banjos and all those strange and wonderful ethnic things that come into a repair shop is a very solid grounding in learning how instruments can be (and sometimes how they should not be) built.

Another point is that if you are just starting out as a builder, you can make a lot more on a hourly rate repairing than you can building. I reckon a decent stringed instrument repairer should be able to charge at least the same as the person who repairs your stove or dishwasher.

cheers

[Bill James]

We have a Luthiery school here in Red Wing Minnesota and many of the graduates are customers of mine and have gone on to building and selling instruments and doing repairs for shops and on their own. Some build full time, some part time (by choice or because of the economy) but they all seem to me to be valuble assets to the industry. I only scanned the article and it didn't seem to mention Luthiery schools but I could have missed it. It seemed to focus on Culinary schools.

Also when it comes to an institution making a profit and providing nothing of any substance in return, it's kind of ironic that the article comes from the New York Times. :))

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Having worked in a production shop, many small scale shops that do a combination of repairs and new builds, spending parts of the last 15 years teaching lutherie in formats ranging from several years at a university to small masters type workshops and also one on one with students, I'll add my 3 cents to the thread.

There are several major lutherie schools around the country and a very nice one up in Canada that offer large classes, a variety of options, and generally cost a good chunk of change. Many of them offer some help with placement after the schooling and I've seen many cases where attending that particular school allowed the former students to get a foot in the door with one of the production factories- usually at a factory training wage of $7-9 per hour with no benefits. While $7 an hour may seem like a poor wage, $9 an hour in a town like Santa Cruz won't even find you a legal parking space to live in your van .... I know, I was there, I ran the numbers, and the dishwashing job at the Mexican restaurant payed better in the long run. ( Comments Paul????) That only lasted a little while until I was run out of town and went back to Oregon to work at a different production facility for $7 an hour...how long do you think it will take your $10,000 or more tuition to balance out that????

The biggest challenge with a "lutheirie school" is that there really is such a large amount of information that can potentially be passed on that there is no realistic way you can get it among a large group of people in a short period of time. One of the schools advertises that they have classes of over 30 students at once! Many of them are run like a production facility- when it is time to bend your sides, you go over to the bending area, learn use their production setup, bend your ribs, and move on. Rib bending accomplished, but 20 years worth of subtle knowledge on all the intricacies of bending wood is not part of the program. The same idea applies to the rest of the build. Lets not forget "that one guy"- the person who has a different learning style that the rest of the class, takes up a disproportionate amount of time, and is generally a drain on the staff and students and is VERY high maintenance. Like it or not, there is one in every larger group. At the end, you have an overview of some methodology, and you could go back and build another instrument there, but most students walk away not being able to think for themselves. Many of the larger programs do offer a lot of fun and an enjoyable community of peers during the process.

Learning to build instruments is a long process that takes a lot of patience and problem solving to work through over many years, if not a lifetime. Going someplace where you put together a kit with titebond and superglue in a week or two only makes you good at building a kit. I've me a number of people who called themselves a "looothyer", having put together a dozen kits. When you finally get to the point where it is time to carve a top by hand, you are back to square one with no experience and the work often shows it. The only way you get good at carving tops is by carving tops, not grabbing another pattern carved one off the rack ( no offence to all the old guys who have already carved hundreds of tops by hand and finally have been able to afford their own smallcnc- that is a completely different scenario)

I generally have 12-18 students a year that come to me for private instruction. About half of them have already graduated from one of the larger brand name schools. They built a couple of nice instruments, but they can't think for themselves. Without being in front of the production process, they are not able to do any work. I had one student last year that spent well over $10k, was there for three months, and never picked up a hand plane... Rather than try to tackle the entire build at once, working with an individual builder, you can break it up into five or more smaller session where you can concentrate on one area and get a good wealth of knowledge and a little bit of homework. Come back six weeeks later and move on to the next step, that sort of thing. Most builders are pushed for time, behind schedule, and not too many are getting rich on it, yet a lot understand your desire to learn and were there themselves at one time. Be realistic about it- if you want a chunk of time that I could accomplish two full refrets and a neck reset, you can't come here and expect to take up that much time in teaching for $50. I generally have a shop rate and an educational rate. The educational rate is about half, but still before I see a penny, the landlord, the web guy, the advertising, the tonewood guys, the family, the mortgage- all of them don't offer any educational rate.

Working with an individual builder, one on one, you get very detailed information that is what you are looking for, and tailored to your learning style, not what the general curriculum dictates. Realistically, it costs money and takes time away from already busy schedules. Look at the big brand name schools and then break down their costs into a day by day number situation; you'll likely find that the number is higher than you expected but it is also one that if you approach an individual builder, they will work with you. Even at the level that I work at and having built hundreds of instruments over the last three decades, I still regularly approach builders that I admire and offer to pay for advice and instruction whenever possible. Think of how much I have to pay for a couple of hours or a half day with one of the giants- that is usually all the time they can give up. A lot of times I pay their full shop rate and still have to bribe them with a magazine article....but it is worth it;)

j.
www.condino.com

[delsbrother]

Wow. Thanks James for that long and thoughtful answer.

The article doesn't mention lutherie schools by name, but trade schools in general. I may be stretching things including lutherie schools in the same conversation as schools for video game designing and auto upholstery, etc. but having no direct experience I thought I'd ask here. The closest lutherie school to me is at GIT in Hollywood, and visiting there you definitely get the "diploma mill" vibe. Others have had experiences with the program (which is roughly $10K) and had not great things to say about it.

I suppose I always knew that choosing such a career would be risky (especially these days); I just had my interest piqued by that article. If people are still going broke after paying $40K to learn how to fix BMWs and not finding work, I guess it should be a given that there might be problems trying to pay off lutherie school.

[Geoff B]

I teach mandolin building at a local community college and I'd say students are pretty realistic about what they get out of it, at least in my class--and from what I know from the other instructors who are all very good people-people and incredibly talented as well. In the classes I teach I usually suggest other ways that folks do things, but go in depth on how I/we do it in my class. For instance, we bend sides on an electric pipe in my class, but they get to watch the guitar builders bend their sides with blankets and I show them pictures of my propane-torch-pipe set-up at home. I think my students understand that they are learning A way to do it, but that there is very rarely THE way to do it. I haven't worked repair, but for skill building I couldn't imagine anything better--the problem is finding your way into that job without experience... good luck! Building your own is a great way to expose yourself to the tasks and get your mind thinking about the theory of the craft. If you just stop at what you are taught, then you aren't a very good student. If you only teach a process and not a philosophy, then I think you short the students somewhat. This craft is a THINKING craft, not a color by number thing. I think our school does a very good job, but ultimately students get out of it what they want. I usually have 3 to 5 students, so I am working 1-on-1 with them for important tasks (cutting the neck, joint for instance) and we serve as a think tank while we all work at a bench together. I can't vouch for other schools, but I think it is a great way to get STARTED, and as James said, it is something we learn all the time. Like in any job, there will be some on-site training no matter how much you learned before. Folks who are IN IT mentally will pick up quickly, regardless of where they got their start. Folks who think it's easy will have a tough time facing the reality--but that's true of anything, really.

There is also something to consider what the individual is wanting to do with their knowledge. A production facility? A repair shop? An instrument store that does set-ups? A one-man shop? Custom builds? Traditional designs? There is so much to learn, you really can't pack it all into a year or two of school. Again, that's true of just about everything. I think schools are a great way for folks to get a jump-start, but it is a step in the process. Do your homework, commit to figuring it out (ie., not having it handed to you) and you'll find what you are looking for...

[grandcanyonminstrel]

I think that, from my standpoint, I can sum it up like this: There are a number of ways that you can learn to build a good instrument- that is the easy part. Trying to make a living at it and run a small business that keeps you and your family afloat is a completely different set of skills.

j.
www.condino.com

[lowcountry picker]

Happened to google 'lutherie during the recession' and came upon this thread.

Funny, I am the student that Condino says went to a high dollar school and 'never picked up a hand plane.' I have taken some classes with James and he is very knowledgeable.

The 60 day program that I attended was for instruction on how to build an electric guitar and a flattop acoustic from scratch, and a overview of common repairs. Both guitars combined are worth over half of my tuition, and everyone that hears my acoustic wants one.
Had I taken the more expensive class that teaches you how to make the classic archtop, then I would be all too familiar with how to use a hand plane. But since use of a hand plane is not totally germane with the construction of flattops, there wasn't time for the topic.

Since I've been out of the school and working in my own repair shop, I have been able to pay myself back for tuition and most of my power equipment to get me set up for building custom guitars. I do luthier work parttime, but keep busy enough that I'm turning away work.

Don't doubt that a school can get you on the right path delsbrother, especially if its well known by musicians/your clients.

No one can take away from you the skills that you learn from such an endeavor. Truly, unless someone has attended such a school they have not much room for comparison.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

I've actually heard the no handplane story from a number of folks.

Thanks for adding some counterpoint to the thread and giving us a student's perspective. In the long run, I think a lot of us would like to see a longer term fretted instrument building program here in the US similar to the violin school options. I'm pretty sure there are a few graduates from the Salt Lake City program lurking here and reading this thread.

j.
www.condino.com

[sunburst]

Learning to build instruments is a long process that takes a lot of patience and problem solving to work through over many years, if not a lifetime.

In many ways, that's the crux of the issue.
Those problem solving skills don't have to come from lutherie or a school, they can come from anywhere.
I've mentioned before that I was a "farm boy". I watched the old folks, left-overs from the time of hand work and fixing what was broken, and saw the thought process of problem solvers. I just figured you could fix or build anything if you put your mind (and hands) to it.
You don't get a certificate, or any other piece of paper for it, but if you know of a place to go and observe people who know how to work with their hands and with their minds to figure it all out, take the opportunity. Schools seldom teach that kind of thinking, and how would they?
It is often said that you should get a job in a large music store doing repairs if you want to learn a lot about lutherie in a short length of time, and there's a lot to that. If you can find a place where there is more than one repair person, and a least one has a lot of experience, get the job, stay out of the experienced person's way and just watch. Ask some questions, but don't be a pest. As this forum shows, luthiers are often quite willing to share their "secrets".
Or... it could be a marina, a small cabinet shop, anywhere where people do actual work that involves problem solving. The skills learned can be valuable.

[barrangatan]

Just to add to something that's been mentioned already: the NYT article in question is really focusing on the all the for-profit colleges and universities - the U of Pheonix, ITT Tech and Kaplans of the world - and how most of them are failing miserably in providing a quality education for the increasing number of people who enrolled in them, many of whom went into great financial debt in doing so. Compound with the strong armed, deceptive and coercive sales tactics that these institutions are reportedly using to lure their prospective students, and the huge amount of federal dollars they are sucking down, we have a national problem on our hands.

And going back to the OP's original question: I think changing careers during any down turn is a big and risky gamble for anyone. Unless you are forced to do so, or if you are beginning to see the writing on the wall, I would recommend staying in your day job during the week, and use whatever free time you have to start learning everything you can about building and repairing instruments. As many have chimed in already, trade schools and structured programs are a good way to introduce you to the craft, but as in most cases whether in luthiery or traditional education, the real learning comes after you leave the program and start applying the basics you just learned on whatever you start doing. Remember that luthiery is one of those professions where your work is going to be judged solely by its quality, not where you learn your skills from. Your prospective customers will not care one bit whether you learn how to build from RT or simply in your garage by yourself. So find the best learning process that fits your learning style, as well as your schedule and financial bottom line.

So while you're still working your day job, check out whatever resources there may be in your local area that may allow you to start 'getting your feet wet'. There are quite a few established builders (mostly guitar) in the Los Angeles area, and some of them may be open to having an apprentice in their shops. There may be other weekend courses out there that you can look into. And then, there is always the option of simply getting a good mando or guitar kit, and start putting it together on your own and with advices from the builder who sold you the kit. I've seen quite a few marvelous instruments on this forum from people who got a kit from Roger Siminoff, and after months of putting in little time here and there and with Roger's incredible guidance, is able to put together a professional looking instrument all on their own.

Good luck to you and let us know what you end up doing or finding out.

[sunburst]

Remember that luthiery is one of those professions where your work is going to be judged solely by its quality...

How I wish that were true!
The people who collectively make up the market generally are not good at judging quality. It is reputation above all, name recognition, 'branding', that sort of thing that make a luthier 'successful' financially.
That means that doing good work is only part of the 'game'. Being prolific, consistent, and staying around long enough for your reputation to grow are more important for financial success than simply quality work.

[Rick Turner]

Three out of three full time luthiers who work for me are Roberto Venn grads, and I wouldn't hesitate to call the school and ask for recommendations, as I've done in the past, for future hires. They come out knowing the language of lutherie...if they're good...and are ready to apprentice. With my experienced guys knowing what the courses are, they know what to expect of a new person, too; they'll know what he or she knows and doesn't know. We start RV grads up at about $11.00 an hour, and the good ones are worth that fairly quickly. The pay I can afford will top out at around $17.00 to $18.00 and hour for someone who stays with me and is productive for three or four years. I've not risked going above that, and won't be able to until my CNC machine is more productive. How's that for odd? Get a CNC machine and be able to pay your employees more...not less.

Look, any of the white collar careers involve a major investment into learning, even if it's just a four year liberal arts BA. Why shouldn't someone interested in lutherie pay to learn?

I'm also of the belief that to be a fully rounded luthier, one should work in retail repairs for at least three years. Repair work is MUCH more difficult than building decent instruments. All of my instrument design work is heavily informed by years and years of doing repairs. How are you going to know what fails in a mandolin or guitar until you've had to fix it? Every instrument has its weak point, and copying failing instruments of the past is not the way forward. In the mando world, a great example of this is Roger Siminoff's F-5 peghead scroll strengthening cross grain disc.

I wouldn't dis the schools too quickly. They're not all great...I had a terribly under-informed employee who had taken the Musicians' Institute course in Hollywood; but I do know Roberto Venn, and there are grads from there working at every major guitar company in the US and many abroad, and that includes one of the VPs at Fender. Just because many of us came up primarily self-taught doesn't mean that there might not be a bit of a short cut to the process of learning. I would have loved going to a decent lutherie school when I started, but in 1963 there weren't any...at least not for guitars and mandolins and at least not in the US.

[Rick Turner]

One other kind of political comment:

<Political content removed by Moderator, as per Board Guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/faq.php)>

[Big Joe]

We've interviewed a number of grads from "lutherie schools" at our shop, and when I was at Gibson. Only one was worth considering. He got out of the Army after 13 years ( 3 tours in Iraq ) and went to a lutherie school. He did get a basic understanding of the language and the parts involved. The hard part is training all the wrong information out so you can put the right information in. He has proven to be an asset to us. He does not work full time and has a 'day' job. However, the time he puts in has been beneficial to him and to us. We continue to train and teach him what he needs to know and I would love to put him on full time in the foreseeable future.

Most of the guys we have trained had little or no experience, but had the right tools... oh... not hand tools or power tools, but the right tools mentally and the eyes and hands to do the work. They are able to "see" things and know what to do by instinct. With enough hours training and a high desire on their part, they become excellent. We do not pay wages for training. How long does that last? It depends upon the person. If they have a great mind and great skills to hone, then it may only be months or a year. Sometimes it can take longer. Usually we figure it will take a year before they can work without a lot of help and supervision.

The hard part in a small shop is having the time to go over things and teach. It slows us down during the early part of the training and our volume can actually decrease for a while. Once the apprentice is able to function with a bit less constant supervision and has learned how to do many of the basics, it can help make up for that early time investment. Still, it does take a lot of hours before one can know all the little things one needs to know.

One advantage we have in our shop is that we have so much work come through on all stringed instruments (no.. we do not consider pianos stringed instruments :) ). This gives a wide variety of projects to be involved in and an opportunity to do things one may not see often. We do tons of neck sets and refrets and cracks and broken necks. Our volume of these kind of projects give opportunity to really develop the skills in those areas. In addition, we do a lot of restoration work and a lot of finish work. We use nitro lacquer in our booth or varnish and french polish. We also build custom instruments... both electric and acoustic. This gives the apprentice a lot of opportunity to learn every aspect of lutherie from basic setups to design and how to make that design work.

We do not take on many apprentices. We have to be really convinced the apprentice is in it for the long run, and not just a hobby or a person that will think they know it all in a short time. I've been doing this for a very long time and I don't claim to know it all. It is amazing how often we can still learn new tricks... even as an old dog :) . In any case, if one has the basic mental and physical tools for the work, and are willing to sacrifice enough to get there, they can. It is not easy, and it is not cheap, but it can be done.

We have tossed around the idea of doing a school of lutherie for the last few years. The problem is not the ability to teach, or the availability of students, or the opportunity for those who can graduate to make a living. The problem is I have not had the time to actually get the school up and going. The time is not there to get all the things together that would need to be there for the student to get all they should from a school. Maybe someday... if I don't get too old first !

[rbvintage]

1. I'm not a luthier. I've never been to a school of luthiery. For 30+ years I've been a business consultant specializing in sales force development. My clients have been, primarily, $0mm to $100mm companies. I have written a set of manuals on how to generate revenue through sales.
2. Most of my clients over that period have been entrepreneurs. Wikipedia says "An entrepreneur is a person who has possession of a new enterprise, venture or idea and assumes significant accountability for the inherent risks and the outcome."
3. I've been playing and collecting stringed instruments (mandolin, guitar, banjo) for the better part of 50 years. I know and respect many luthiers and musical instrument repair people.
4. Most of those folks have an entrepreneurial spirit, and love what they do. That being said, another fact exists in the world of entrepreneurs: "You can't get fired, but you can starve to death!"
5. I believe a piece is lacking from the education of many entrepreneurs, including those involved in luthiery and stringed instrument repair. They haven't been taught the in's-and-out's of business, most particularly, how to successfully market and sell the products of their love and skill. Cold, hard truth..."Nothing happens until something is sold!"
6. I am going to the IBMA conference this year to do a little R&D, to see if there's a way I can help those artisans and hand-workers that have kept my love for wooden, stringed instruments working! (Keep in mind, much of my research will be related to "how I get paid"...after all, I'm an entrepreneur, too!);)

[thistle3585]

Wonderful point RBvintage. I'd bet a lot of repairmen aren't quite sure how to value their time and create charge rates based on the competition and not take things like overhead and operating expenses into consideration. I ran a service oriented franchise for sometime and the first day was spent understanding how to arrive at an hourly charge rate. You might be better off selling your services to a luthier school by doing a one or two day business session.

On another note, my wife's uncle is a cobbler and he has told me how his business flourishes in economical downturns because people tend to have their shoes and leather goods repaired versus discarding them and buying new. He says that he'll know when there is an upturn in the economy because his business will drop off. I wonder whether that same theory applies to repair work?

[sunburst]

Repair work on instruments never stops. I could do repairs 80 hours per week and still turn down jobs. The good thing about that is I can be somewhat picky about what I work on.
It comes back to reputation again though. There are plenty of people who 'say' they do repairs, and there are no real credentials for instrument repair people, so there is a lot of bad repair work being done. Word of mouth is the thing. People will go to the repair people who have the good reputations.

There are probably some luthiers who could use some guidance on what to charge and how to be better business people, but if they are consistently doing good work, word will get around with no particular marketing effort on their part.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Almost all of the crusty old fellows and heroes to us here in the cafe community got to where they are long before you could ever go to any school for it.Today's media offers so much more information readily available.

I think it is a much more complicated and challenging craft to become expert in repair than to build a good instrument. There is so much more information you need to understand and you are dealing with hundreds of interpretations in materials and methodology. When I step in the door over at Dream Guitars, on any given day I could have to chose from 30 different neck body attachment methods, dozens of finished and glues, aerospace composites all the way back to hundreds of year old spruce and Brazilian rosewoods. Damage control is probably the hardest-a wrong method, material, or approach from someone's $150 fret job can drop the street value ten or twenty times that if you blow the originality or intent. Drop a chisel on a $50,000 D'Acquisto like the one I was working on this afternoon??? Epoxy or superglue an open seam on someone else's Loar? Saw through the fingerboard binding? Not an option.

If you can afford one of the nice larger school programs, go. If you can find an individual builder to work with and can only afford a weekend visit, go. If you can only afford a book and a few materials or a public library card, get it. If all you can do is search the database her and at the OLF and MIMF and other online resources, do it. Dumpster dive your maple and get a forest service harvest permit to harvest your own spruce if that is all you can come up with. Raise bunnies to make your hide glue...In any manner, if you want to learn to build a instrument, start working at it! It will be challenging, and slow, some days frustrating, others manic, and something I can't explain that I've spend 75% of my life both fascinatingly enganged in and other days chained like a curse at 4am into a craft that we are blessed to be able to pass our time involved with. It's my vocation, my mistress and my vice. Be careful what you are getting yourself into....;)

j.
www.condino.com

[MikeEdgerton]

James, you make it all sound so romantic... :cool:

[delsbrother]

I already have the rabbits.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

It is interesting that I came across this article this afternoon. This morning I ordered the Don Macrostie DVD (to go with Siminoff book that I've had for a few years), an F5 template set and mold from Siminoff.

I am going to put my dormant wood shop to use in a week or so.

[Big Joe]

Often we get excited about the idea of being a "professional" in the business as a builder, repair, or player. Too often we find our hobby and passion becomes a job and it can lose its joy if you are not careful. It is important to know whether you can keep your passion even when you live with it 24 hours a day. Most cannot. It sounds great for a period, but then they either stop playing or leave the business and regain their passion as an amateur. Some can do both, but not most. That's why I fish for fun and not for a living :) .

[Nelson Peddycoart]

I have no delusions of being a professional luthier, Joe. At one time, I thought it'd be cool, but then I did some math and realized just what you are saying....that I'd have to make x number of instruments (and SALE them) to keep my standard of living up. I figure that after a while, I would get sick of putting such care and attention into something I couldn't keep. I'd just like to build one and see how it goes. If it shows promise, I'll build another until I have the one I want. I really enjoy detailed/hand tool work in my shop now, and thought this is a way to better my knowledge of the instrument in general.