Tuning Peg Blues

[Hayduke27]

Hey folks, I have been searching around the forums for answers to my problem, and can't find anything so thought I'd ask all of you. In fall of 2001 I bought a mandolin through a man a met on this forum. He was an older gentleman named Sonny Morris, and the one he sold me was his 9th build. It is just gorgeous, and has always had a nice deep woody voice.

This mandolin has seen a lot of use over the past 4 years, and just recently I have had a problem. It seems that my tuning pegs are starting to slip. I change my strings at least once per month, but these days even new strings are very hard to keep in tune. I hear the pegs slip as I tune up (the "clicking" and sliding up a half step). This never used to happen, but is not getting worse quickly. I can barely get through a song before strings start to fade out of tune. Am I correct in thinking that the tuning hardware is slipping, and what does it take to change out this hardware? Thanks for any advice, I sure hope I can get my baby playing again!!

[Skip Kelley]

If you hear clicking it can be in the strings slots of the nut or bridge. If that is not your problem the tuners aren't much to replace. The ones you have look to be Gotoh's.

[Willie]

I would almost bet that you have gone to different gauge strings and like Skip said they are being pinched in the slots on the nut...a luther can widen the slots for you if you don`t want to try it yourself....Good luck....Willie

[DerTiefster]

Or at least lubricate the slots with pencil lead graphite or something similar. If the strings are tight in the nut slots, it should be apparent when they try to stay there when you change them. You change strings often, so ... do they come out loosely or stick in the groove? You also didn't -say- but do they go flat or sharp when they "click" after playing? If flat, then it's not a sticky nut slot (unless you are tuning down to pitch instead of up to pitch.

[Hayduke27]

I do change the strings often, and I have been using the same type of strings for about 2 years, those being D'Addario XLP Medium Heavy. This problem has developed more recently. The strings do not stick in the nut at all, and it is not a problem to get them to stay seated in the proper grooves when I put on new strings. My A and E strings slip the worst, and they consistantly get sharp.

[Hayduke27]

Also, as a note on the "click", that doesn't happen when I am playing. The click is when I am tuning, from flat to sharp, and rather tha a nice consistant sharpening of tone, it jerks up to a sharper note.

[DerTiefster]

Sorry about misunderstanding. You said that, "I can barely get through a song before strings start to fade out of tune." and I thought this meant that the strings were spontaneously sagging in pitch. But I thought I'd ask whether they go sharp or flat because I didn't want to assume too much and get it wrong. If the strings go "click" and get sharp, that would just about have to be because the tension on the tuner side is greater than on the side between nut and bridge. When the string slips over the nut to relax the headstock area tension, it pulls the main string body sharp. But I now don't understand the comment about playing just about all the way through a tune and then the strings fading out of tune. I'd like to assist, but I'm confused about the symptoms.

It might still be worth rubbing a pencil lead in the nut groove to lubricate the base of the slot. Graphite does wonders sometimes. But I might still misunderstand your meaning.

[Bill Snyder]

If they are going sharp after tuning up it can not be the tuners. Tuners will not suddenly put more tension on the string. It sounds like the nut.

[Rob Gerety]

I'd be real surprised if the problem is related to the tuners.

[Big Joe]

I would suggest getting a good setup and having everything checked out. The nut and saddle are both issues that can cause the string to bind. It is probably time to check the bridge fit, truss rod and frets as well. Getting everything checked out and set properly would probably give you much better performance. A set up is like a tune up on your car. Needs to be done from time to time. They should also check all the hardware and make sure it is functioning properly and all screws and fitting are tight. The issues you describe are typical of nut slot or saddle slot issues that should be checked on a set up. They should also check the tuners to assure they are functioning properly and in good shape. I think you would find it well worth the expense.

[Paul Hostetter]

Those are Gotohs and they are not the problem. If they ever worked, they still work. Many top-flight makers (Steve Gilchrist, Stan Miller, Bill Collings among them) use them. The clicking sounds like the issue often observed with an ivory or plastic nut. Do you know for sure what the nut is made of?

[Hayduke27]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies. It sounds like I need to clarify a few things, but I am starting to get the feeling that the problem is not in the Gotoh's, but instead related to my set up. Let me explain one mroe time like this:

1.) I can and do tune the mandolin to proper tuning.

2.) I play 1 song, during which time one of my A, and one E string will fade out of tune, consistantly going sharp.

3.) after the song, I tune the 2 strings that have gone sharp by lowering them until they are too flat, and then tuning up to the proper note. While I tune up, rather than the typical, gradual increase in tone, they increase a little, then with a "pop" or "click" sound they suddenly tune up a lot, often sharper than I want and I have to repeat the process.

I do like the sound of having my instrument "set up". It's been a long time, I would like to have somebody give it a professionsal eye. Anybody know a good luthier in western Colorado?

[DerTiefster]

While you're looking for a luthier, I'd still suggest you wipe a pencil lead across the bottom of the nut slots to put a little graphite-based lube there. Who knows? You might even find that you don't have to find that luthier until later in the summer.

[Paul Hostetter]

Really, that pop and click is audial evidence of friction in the nut slot. If you have a nut of some soft material such as ivory or plastic, the strings themselves will saw their way in and create their own sticky channel. Perhaps, though, you just need to have the nut gone over. Everything you've said points to friction in the nut slots.

Mark Minor is in Salida, he's the closest guy I know of there. Contact me off-list for details.

[Hayduke27]

Thanks so much for all the advice everybody! My nut is plastic, and all signs do seem to be pointing toward tight grooves. I am going to rub some pencil graphite on my nut (that sounds dirty), and see about finding the ol' girl a place for a summer check-up! Thanks again!! :cool:

[Hayduke27]

I learned some interesting things, thought I would pass them on. First of all, putting graphite in the slots on the nut improved things dramatically. For one, the strings are staying in tune more consistantly. For two, it totally elimimated the "click" while I was tuning. All string now have a nice even tune up. I still have one A string that continues to get a little sharp, but I wouldn't be surprised if a set up down the road would correct that. Leading to my next observation:

While I was putting the graphite into the nut with a pencil, it became very apparent that all of my strings had been gnawing a new groove into the nut. This was totally invisible to the naked eye, but when I ran the graphite over it, I could both see and feel the new ruts in my nut (sounds like Dr. Seuss). It seems the strings are wearing down into the nut on the fretboard side of the nut. Are nuts replaceable?

Thanks again for your help folks, you guys nailed it! :cool:

[Tracy Tucker]

A little late to help, but I know Sonny ships his mandolins strung with Martin Bluegrass strings, which are a lighter gauge than the ones you use: so the guys were correct (of course!) in pointing to the nut pinching the bigger strings.

[Paul Hostetter]

Are nuts replaceable?

Of course!! Bone, and nothing but!

http://www.lutherie.net/replace.that.nut.jpg

[Michael Lewis]

Yep, have the nut replaced with a piece of good quality bone.

The fact that you lower the tension of the string and bring it up to pitch, and then it goes sharp, is proof that there is friction in the nut. There will alw3ays be SOME friction but a bone nut will have less than the plastic one.

In order to bring the string up to pitch, the section above the nut has to have enough more tension to overcome the friction at the nut. This short section will eventually give up some of it's difference of tension as the instrument is played, thus going sharp.