Did you ever feel slightly taken

[Jack Straw]

I really don't want to name name's or point fingers so I will refrain from naming the actual music store. #I just thought I might pass on some insight from a recent mandolin purchase.

About this time last year I was looking for a mandolin upgrade and had about $1000 to spend. #I also had a nice Martin guitar and another mandolin to offer up in trade. #I contacted a dealer that had a Nashville Flatiron Festival F for sale and asked about a cash and guitar trade for the mandolin. #

The dealer was rather hesitant in taking the trade as he was located about 1600 miles from me and wasn't real sure what he could get for the guitar. #He advised me to sell it local. #He also said I could just send him the $1000 and make payments on the mandolin.

After some thought, I decided to take him up on the offer to make payments. #It seemed like we had a pretty square deal worked out, although the price was a little high ($2199). #But seeing how he was willing to take payments, I figured it was worth a little extra. #In addition I would be able to keep the guitar and the other mandolin.

Well as life often does, money got a little tight for awhile and it took me 5 months to pay off the balance. #

Meanwhile, unknown to me, after 3 months the dealer started charging me interest on the 'loan' to purchase the instrument. #I felt stung by this and asked for a refund, of course that was a no go. #After I paid him off for the balance and shipping I was in for about $2400.

The instrument arrives and it has some miner finish cracks on the top and crazing on the sides between the points. #Now I am really pissed that this wasn't disclosed up front. #When I e-mailed the dealer in a very civil tone about my take on the transaction, the sales person never e-mailed me back. #Calls to the specific store allways amounted to 'you need to talk to so-and-so who cut the original deal with you'. #Of course this guy was never in, sick, on-vacation, doing some shows ect. #After awhile I just gave up and licked my wounds.

After the fact I have realized the mando is a giant and has an incredible tone. #The surface stuff is really nothing to stay pissed off about. #Life goes on.....

No, I'd say there is something to be pissed off about & you would be doing the community a service to tell us who this dealer is.

[J. Mark Lane]

Hmmm. $2199... plus tax? Was there tax? Plus shipping...that had to be, what, $50? How much of the $2400 was interest? And was it actually $2400? Or $23xx? Seems like the numbers don't leave much room for real disappointment.

Whether he should have charged you interest is perhaps debatable. Generally, one is not supposed to charge interest without telling the borrower, in advance. But if you had agreed to pay it off in some time period, and you took longer, it strikes me as not unreasonable. What was the rate? And for what time period did he charge it?

As for the finish checks etc., it's hard for all of us to comment without seeing it. I saw a mando not long ago that the owner loved the appearance of, but it had very serious finish flaws that would have bothered me. OTOH, I've seen people hugely upset over very minor flaws that were hardly visible. ....

In the end, you got the mando for about what you expected to pay, you locked it up before you could really afford it, and it turned out to be a great sounding instrument. Seems like a pretty good deal to me....

Mark

Mark is probably right. There are two sides to every story.......

[jjboone101]

Although, $2400 is pretty steep for a Flatiron F when they seem to be going on the Cafe for approx. $1800-2000.

[Paul Kotapish]

Could you clarify the sequence of events? Did you get the mandolin after you sent in the original $1000 or did you only take possession of the instrument after your payments were complete? In the first case you would be getting a loan and should have signed some kind of loan agreement that stipulated what the terms were.

If you didn't get the mando until after you paid the full price, the shop was taking payments on a layaway item, which is generally not handled as a loan, and is customarily an interest-free way to secure an item for purchase when you don't have the full fee up front.

In either case, there should have been something in writing about the terms of the deal. Something smells fishy. If you have any lawyer friends, you might ask for a little opinion from them.

[mrbook]

I have purchased many instruments by mail, and in many cases there was a lttle letdown when I first opened the box - always a few more nicks than I anticipated, or something that didn't match my high expectations. I always played the instrument for a few days, and in all but one case I ended up thinking that the instrument was exactly what I wanted and everything the dealer said it was. Without seeing an instrument, your (my) expectations are the highest; I know that listing every tiny imperfection results in a description that makes the instrument appear far worse than it really is (and more difficult to sell). I also have often found that when I wanted a certain instrument and paid what I thought was a high price, within a couple years I usually felt that it was now a bargain. When you decide to buy something, you usually decide you are willing to pay the price, high or low. I would rather buy or sell than trade.

As a store owner in real life, I often let people pay major purchases off over time. Most take longer than anticipated (things come up for all of us), and although I needed the money myself and would have liked to charge interest, I never have, and I'm always happy when they finally buy it. Everyone does business differently, though.

[Paul Kotapish]

Here's an article about the legalities and pitfalls of layaway plans.

http://www.thecommondenominator.com/cl112398.html

According to this, it's illegal to charge interest on layaway purchases.

Check it out.

[Lee]

Exactly how old is this Nashville Flatiron Festival F? Seems to me it's a bit new to have some minor finish cracks on the top and crazing on the sides between the points.

[J. Mark Lane]

Interesting little article, Paul. However, it appears to relate to the D.C. area. Of course, Washington, D.C. is a Communist Country, so lord knows whether any of those "rules" apply anywhere else. It may well be illegal to charge interest on layaways in every state in the country. I have no idea. It's not the kind of thing I deal with in my practice (thankfully <g>). But I would be very careful in making suggestions of "illegality" without knowing with some certainty what I was talking about (in the relevant jurisdiction).

I just want to make a general comment here. Frequently, on this Board and in many other Internet locations I have enjoyed over the years, someone comes along with a "complaint" about a retailer. From the safety of their remote locations, in front of nothing but a mindless and emotionless computer screen, people promptly jump on the bandwagon to cast blame, charge the store owner with all manner of crimes and misdemeanors, and suggest that the complaining party get thee to a lawyer post haste! As a lawyer myself, and also as a former retailer, and also as a consumer who has purchased many musical instruments, over the Internet and otherwise... I so tire of this.

As Dale points out, there is *always* another side to the story. People should, in my not so humble opinion, be a little slower to cast stones. And a little more careful about invoking "The Law." The Law is usually pretty measured, and usually commonsense based. (Although personally, I think a law that prohibits interest on layaways is a bunch of meddling nonsense....All that should be required is full disclosure to the consumer, after which it should still be a free market... but alas, I don't make the laws, I just live them.)

So that's my rant for the day. FWIW, I thought "Jack Straw's" comment fairly measured. And personally I appreciate that he didn't "name names." He just wanted some thoughts, and I imagine perhaps a little kind support. He got a nice instrument. Let's all go home now....

Mark

[Jack Straw]

The Flatiron is a 1999 and I it wasn't shipped until I had payed for it in full. #I didn't pay taxes on it, the out of state purchase saved me about $150.

I think there were basicly three things that upset me:

1) Inability to cancel purchase or return item.

2) Lack of up front knowledge of crazing.

3) Inability to contact sales person to discuss the general condition of the mandolin. #Not that it would have helped other than allowing me to vent and enhance their knowledge of what I think a honest assessment of instrument condition means.

I think the important message here is the lessons learned.

1) #90 days same as cash means exactly that.

2) #Always check on the return policy before purchase.

3) #Ask for second opinion from another cafe member. #I know there a couple people out there who have/had first hand knowledge of this instrument.

I should have entered this deal with both eyes wide open. # I must admit I was partially blinded by MAS.

[Lee]

MAS causes a multitude of unexpected symptoms.
In the long run; seems like you have a great mando.

[TommyK]

A little tough love... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yep, 90 days same as cash is 90 days same as cash. #You didn't live up to that bargain due to hard times. #He could have put the Flatiron back on the show room floor and maybe, just maybe charged you for the difference between your agreed price and what he could get for it, and you'd still be without a mando. But, he did hold it for you and apparently worked with you through a tough spot. # #
I think the dealer put himself at risk by charging you "interest." #That put him in some legal trouble if he didn't provide you 'loan' papers. #He'd have been better off calling it handling fee or storage or something. #Yes he should have been up front about the fee, whatever he called it, when he allowed you to take longer to pay the mandolin off. #However, if you'd have put it on a credit card, my quick calculator work put the apparent interest rate at 12-ish%, less than most credit cards. #In don't think you got beat up too bad. #Do you really wanna go to war over what?, $200.00? #I doubt you'd find a lawyer willing to look twice at it. #
Life does go on, live and learn, caveat emptor, you're smarter for the experience.... yada, yada, yada.
#
You got a mando you wanted. Enjoy it.

Hope there's no hard feelin's, just my take on the issue. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paul Kotapish]

I just want to make a general comment here. Frequently, on this Board and in many other Internet locations I have enjoyed over the years, someone comes along with a "complaint" about a retailer. From the safety of their remote locations, in front of nothing but a mindless and emotionless computer screen, people promptly jump on the bandwagon to cast blame, charge the store owner with all manner of crimes and misdemeanors, and suggest that the complaining party get thee to a lawyer post haste! As a lawyer myself, and also as a former retailer, and also as a consumer who has purchased many musical instruments, over the Internet and otherwise... I so tire of this.

As Dale points out, there is *always* another side to the story. People should, in my not so humble opinion, be a little slower to cast stones. And a little more careful about invoking "The Law." The Law is usually pretty measured, and usually commonsense based. (Although personally, I think a law that prohibits interest on layaways is a bunch of meddling nonsense....All that should be required is full disclosure to the consumer, after which it should still be a free market... but alas, I don't make the laws, I just live them.)
Mark,

I take your point. And, largely, I agree with it.

I have also bought dozens of instrument over the years in person, by mail, by phone, and over the Internet, and I've never had a problem with the transactions. I'm sure I paid too much for some of the instruments, but I reckon that all balances out with getting some real deals on others.

The difference is that I always understood what the deal was going into it, and I always felt that I could get a straight answer from the seller if I had a quibble.

I managed a music store for several years, too, so I do know the score from both sides of the counter, and of course there are two sides to every story. I never refused to discuss both sides with a customer, or to reach a compromise that we both felt good about.

In my reading of these posts, anyway, no one was tossing stones or making judgements about whether there was a shady deal or not. Still, if a customer feels ripped off and hasn't been able to even discuss the issues with the seller, then it seems prudent to consider the options. My suggestion to Jack Straw to get a casual opinion from a legal-savvy pal
and to take a look at a little article on the subject is hardly the same as a call to legal action. When I have had a beef about some business deal or frustration with a contractor, I've often found it helpful to get some perspective from the lawyers down the hall. As often as not, they've set me straight by dousing the flames rather than fanning them.

Maybe the 200 spondooliks should be just so much water under the bridge. On the other hand, it's never a bad idea to stay informed and get the story on your rights.

PK

[J. Mark Lane]

I've often found it helpful to get some perspective from the lawyers down the hall. As often as not, they've set me straight by dousing the flames rather than fanning them.
Those are good lawyers. <g>

Mark

[mandolooter]

I'd say, all in all and if its got the "sound" that ya did ok. Now that doesent excuse the dealer any if he/she misrepresented it and the "unknown" interest charges, etc. but if it sounds great that is a huge positive point and it could have sounded bad to your ear. (now you Flatiron owners don't go gittin mad at me, that ain't meant to imply nothin bad about Flatiron products, Im just saying in a what if scenario!) I've been dissapointed with a few of my Ebay purchases but my worst experience was thru the Cafe classifieds. On that deal Scott was on the seller in a heartbeat and my money was refunded in full ASAP. When I bought my "dream" mando from an out of state music store I was told it's "the mandolin of a lifetime". I was a still bit leary and figured that was, at least in part, sales hype! Well it arrived and it was all i was looking for in a mandolin and I haven't regetted it a bit and Im glad I pulled the trigger when I did and got it. I think all in all it could have been way worse of an experience for ya and the fact that you describe it as a "giant" should make ya feel a tad better...chaulk up the extra bucks to learning experience, play a few sad songs to get it all out of ya and every time ya feel bad take it out of the case and pick a few notes...you'll feel better Im sure!!!

[PlayerOf8]

Jack,
The only way a sale should ever be FINAL is when the buyer is happy with his or her purchase. If there is a next time -- and believe me there will be a next time, Start by going to ELDERLY or GRUHN or MANDOLIN WORLD or MASS STREET or MANDOLIN BROS. These dealers among other put their terms up front. The only reson these guys stay in business so long is that they bend over backwards to please their customers.

George