Timing

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

So I got brave tonight and decided to record myself playing Turkey in the Straw. I've been working on it for a couple days now and while I wasn't expecting it to sound anything like it should, I figured that it would at least be recognizable. I mean, I had the notes down, I can walk through it with only a botched note or two. Granted I'm playing it so slow it could mistaken that I'm using my feet, but I'm ok with that.

Well, I hope none of my neighbors are home because after watching the playback of that they more than likely heard me having a conversation with myself and my computer as to exactly what the #&(% is wrong with myself and if I have some sort of #&(%!@ mental condition that keeps me from understanding timing? #&(%.

Is there anything that can help with this, I understand it takes time, thats fine, but is there some exercise that will at least help me grasp it better, or even slightly so? Or is it just that I need to have the left and right hands better adjusted to their duties on the instrument. I know my notation reading is sub-par, but I still think its faster than my playing skills and even those should be able to keep say, a 1/4 speed. Is there something that I'm just flat out missing, or some practice method that I might be able to catch on to?

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm an 'ear player' - always have been since i got into Bluegrass years back. It was play by ear or butt out,there was nothing else. IMHO,it's imperative that you get whatever tune that you're trying to play firmly in your head,so that while you're playing it,you can 'hear it in your head'. Sounds a tad crazy but you know what i mean. Once you can do that,then your 'playing reference' is there all the time including the 'tempo' of the tune.
It intrigued me that the latest (i think) CD by Sarah Jarosz,was titled 'Song up In Her Head'.
There's more truth in that title than maybe most folk think. Also,be brave enough to try the tunes up to tempo.There's nothing to be lost. If you practice that way for long enough,it begins to be a natural thing to do. When i began playing back in 1963,there were no 'slowdowners' or ANYTHING at all like that. I simply had to 'listen through' a tune to hear the Banjo part & memorise it. Not the easiest thing to do,but Oh boy !,has it ever paid off in my playing. There must be a shed load of pickers on here who've done exactly the same. Playing aids,tuition DVD's are all good to use,but in the end,it''s all down to you, & you can do it the same as the rest of us & eventually, maybe better than some of us - have faith in yourself,
Ivan;)

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I know what your saying, but all the tunes I'm going over right now are entry level, so to speak, so finding standardized versions of them hasn't been easy. But that is the way I've been trying to learn them, it's just being consistent has not been easy. In time I guess though, in time.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Hard to say without actually hearing you play.

Turkey in the Straw wouldn't be an "entry level" tune in my book. More like Boil Dem Cabbage Down or Angelina Baker. You want to play simple tunes like that with a rock steady rhythm and good timing of notes between the beats before moving on to something like Turkey in the Straw.

Some things to consider:

1. It helps to be clear about the details of keeping time when you play. "Rhythm" is the beat, how the notes of the melody are organized over time. The downbeats should be steady as clockwork ("1 2 3 4" for all the tunes mentioned so far). "Timing" is what happens between the downbeats, and that's more flexible--you can play a tune straight or swung, for instance. "Speed" or "tempo" is just the pace--how slow or fast the beats happen (usually in terms of "per minute").

2. It is CRUCIAL that you pick down on down beats. When you pick a series of eighth notes (each number is a note: |1234 1234|) you should be picking down on the odd numbers and up on the evens.

3. Try a song (with words to sing) that you already know. "You Are My Sunshine," say. Try to play the song with the same rhythm and timing that you would sing it with. Listen for where your picking gets off.

Hope this helps

[Perry]

metronome

[Ravenwood]

I would just add to what Will said in point #3. You mentioned a botched note or two. That suggests your fingers don't really have the tune down yet. A slight moment of indecision about where your fingers are supposed to go is probably what is throwing your timing off. If you know the tune in your head, then eventually, with enough practice the timing will come. That is the point of working with tunes you already know. You have the timing in your head and just need to train (or practice) your fingers to the point of being able to express the timing you already have down.

Will, I tend to agree with you about "Turkey in the Straw" not necessarily being an entry level tune. I've always wondered why everyone who has every written an entry level book has included it. Why in particular do you consider it not entry level?

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Lonely, You're right, my understanding of musical vocabulary, while getting better, is still horrendous. Doesn't help in explaining my problems. Pick direction has been a main point of mine in the last couple of weeks and getting the downstrokes right and on cue has proven to be somewhat difficult. I think that goes down to ravenwoods point about a slight indecision on my part, ie lack of skill, throwing everything off, and thats what I was figuring too. Why do I think Turkey in teh Straw is a beginner tune, good question, and I guess because Rich D and Hal L said so. It was next in line in my book and one that I was looking forward too, but obviously a bit out of my league.

And that comes to the point of learning songs I already know. Which is a problem with the mandolin so far. My skill set is rather weak and I havent found many sources out there for entry level songs. I do have a folk of the wood dvd somewhere, I could pull that out but if I remember correctly that didn't play the tunes slow.

Good advice all around, thank you.

[SincereCorgi]

Ah, yes, that magical moment when you first tape yourself: the musical equivalent of 'jeez, does my voice really sound like that, you guys?'

Don't be too hard on yourself. I'd suggest slowing stuff down, using a metronome, and playing along with recordings using a program like 'Amazing Slow Downer' that lets you tweak the speed to your level. There are also a lot of great books of rhythm exercises that you practice just by clapping or tapping your hands, but that might feel a little like using a medicine ball or something if you just want to play the mandolin. There's a book/CD set by Kaufman on Homespun, too, that has simplified versions of tunes followed by 'normal' versions followed by advanced variations that could be good.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Lots of reasons to hold off on Turkey in the Straw for beginners. In contrast to simpler tunes like Boil Dem Cabbage or Angelina Baker (or even Old Joe Clark or Salt Creek), TIS has fairly long, somewhat convoluted phrases, longer strings of scale-based runs, lots of string crossings, and a syncopated bit in the 2nd half. Most true beginners will struggle with any *one* of those issues, let along all of them stirred into a single tune. I usually teach Arkansas Traveler before TIS just to help people get used to the longer phrases and scalar note runs.

I'll also second the use of a metronome, although many beginners really struggle to find one that will play in time with them. :)) Most people don't want to spend the time to play quarter-note down picks on every click at 60 bpm, gradually working up to say 80 or 90 bpm before trying to pick down and up.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

"Is that how really talk?"-- Exactly what I was thinking.

I want to try and follow the metronome. I have one sitting here, just not sure how to go about it. I really don't want to take any short cuts or lazy ways out with any of this, its just understanding and finding the right things to do that get me. Ive had the debate wth myself over thelast few nights if I should be practicing songs or spending that energy elsewhere.

[jasona]

metronome

This.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Set the metronome at 60 beats per minute and play a down pick on every click. Once you can do that without wavering off the clicks, then (this is important) keep doing it. Don't move on to anything else until you can comfortably just play down picks at 60 bpm. If you get it and move immediately on to something else, you'll end up spending 5 minutes missing the clicks and 30 seconds landing on them steadily. Which means you'll have practiced playing *out of rhythm* about 10 times longer than playing *in* rhythm. So just play down on the clicks. Take breaks and come back to the metronome and try it again, still at 60 bpm.

When this feels familiar and easy, then try picking down and up for every click. The down picks should still land *on* the clicks, so the up picks happen between the clicks. If this is difficult, back off to just down picks again. Then try down-ups again.

Once you can do this comfortably, then bump the metronome up 2 or 4 bpm and try it again. Keep gradually increasing the pace until you're comfortable at, say, 80 bpm picking down and up. *Then* start adding in left hand fingering. Try a basic setting of Boil Dem Cabbage or Old Joe Clark. Nothing fancy--you want a simple tune so you can focus on coordinating the two hands (and not have to concentrate so much on getting the tune right).

The more time you spend up front getting these basic mechanics working smoothly, the easier it will be to pick up other tunes. That said, the best way to learn tunes is to get them in your head first (by listening to them over and over, and some more, and again, and over and over some more again...), and *then* find them on the mandolin.

Hope this helps.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

P.S. You may also want to practice a simple "shuffle" pattern where the first down pick is a quarter note, followed by two eighths, repeated:
|D DU D DU|D DU D DU|
This is a common rhythm pattern in tunes like Boil Dem Cabbage, Old Joe Clark, etc.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Thank you Will and everyone else, Metronome set to 60, see you in a half hour.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Yeah, do let us know how you're getting on with it.

[Roger Kunkel]

metronome

Submit to the the nome.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Ok, So I did 60bpm for a few minutes, didn't quite feel right so I took a break. For some reason I didn't think I was "on". Came back to it. Closed my eyes, 5th fret E string and let it go. This time I could tell, The sound from the mando and the nome just seem to come together. For a few minutes. Fell apart a bit, I stopped, recouped, hit it again. Went from about 3 minutes to maybe a bit over 5. It's funny because after a minute or two i was able to get my foot involved, where as before my foot would simply slow down or speed up to match my hand.

This is definitely going to be part of the nightly practice routine, not only does it help with timing, but in a dark room, eyes closed, I can sit there and study the sound, the specific sound from specific frets and strings and then hopefully move on to running scales at pace with the nome.

This is very good, thank you.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

That's terrific that you're wallowing in it this way, intent on the sound and the beat. That'll do it. Just give it time. Once it's second nature, you'll be well on your way.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

It's really not that easy. After going back to it a few times, getting off track is not that difficult to do and getting back on time isn't easy either.But once the hand motion is in place its easy to kind of just drift with it and follow it through.

[Rob Gerety]

Give praise to the nome.

After a while you'll be pushing and dragging time at will. The nome is your friend.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Be careful about "drifting" too much. What helped me early on was feeling the beat as viscerally, physically as I could, to the point of gently flexing big muscles (think diaphragm, glutes, abs, etc.) on every beat. You want the nome to give you the tempo, but you want the beat to come from within *you.* If you're not internally dancing to the music, your music won't dance....

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Good words of advice there. I've been noticing that if I let my mind get involved things can get hairy (things usually catch fire or break when I think) but if I just let my body go, then it stays pretty much on target. Not an easy thing to consistently follow for extended periods of time.

[300win]

Everyone is differant in how they learn, and the quickness they can catch on. My advise to anyone beginning is to not try complicated tunes too early. I too can only play by ear, and when I began a long time ago, there were no aids to help you, only being around other pickers, and you really had to try and catch on to what they were doing at speed. There were no problems getting people to show you tunes, riffs, etc., but nobody slowed them down for you, and I think that actually helped me learn faster. till this day a tune that is slowed way down does not have the same feel to it as it does when played at speed. But what works for some might not work for others. Try differant things to see what works for you, and in the beginning keep things simple.

[Rob Gerety]

If you're not internally dancing to the music, your music won't dance....

+1.

Watch some video of Mike Marshall sometime - or really most any musician that has solid rhythm. You've got to get into the groove in a physical way - helps big time.

[Doug Hoople]

Another +1 for your own foot as a metronome.

It's a great diagnostic. If you can keep a steady beat while playing your tune, then you know the tune well enough to play it at that tempo. If you lose the thread and your feet start to get mushy, that's a sure indication that you're playing through a section you don't know.

Once you know what you're unsure of, create an exercise that loops through the trouble spot. It might only be three notes, or it might be a few measures. Make it as small as possible, but try to make a loop out of it so you can work it over and over. Once you've got the trouble spot ironed out, start stretching out the length of your loop to include more of the whole tune.

+1 for the regular metronome, too! Try it and your foot together.

[Rob Gerety]

I like the "whole body" groove.

[Harrmob]

I always foot tap, but when I have difficulty with timing, I bob my head with the beat. Sometimes I do not connect with the metronome because like an idiot, I did not learn by playing with one!

[HddnKat]

I try to stay away from the head-bobbing thing - I'm afraid I"ll start looking like Bert doing the 'Pigeon'

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Thats ok, I'm sure I look like Ernie. We could put out an album. Make a killing selling to the tone deaf or those with sick senses of humor.

[farmerjones]

My experience with a nome is to set the nome to you. (when you're playing at a speed you think you like) While you'll never win in an arguement with a nome, you'll disagree less, this way.
The nome will reveal your ruff spots, so you can smooth them out.
(This is where you slow the nome down)
Working with a nome also helps you to hear two things at once. Place the nome where you can hear it and yourself equally. When you play with others eventually, you'll need to be able to hear them and yourself both.

[AlanN]

because like an idiot, I did not learn by playing with one!

Then there are a lot of idiots out there, including Bill Monroe.

Homer: (when told his rhythm playing was just like a metronome)

"Thanks, but a metronome don't swing!"

[Pete Hicks]

A nice exercise is to listen to music without an instrument and call out "one" on the first beat of every measure. This is best done alone or with another friend who is working on rhythm. If you have the first beat, the rest tend to fall into place.

[Rob Gerety]

Working with a nome also helps you to hear two things at once. Place the nome where you can hear it and yourself equally. When you play with others eventually, you'll need to be able to hear them and yourself both.

Yes! This is one of the little known benefits of playing with a nome. It teaches you to divide your attention while playing. Singing does it too.

[300win]

Timing and being in tune, is the most important aspects of music .