Mandolin Elbow? (Guitar convert's lament)

[terzinator]

Maybe it's just me...

How many others out there who switched from guitar to mandolin have experienced soreness in your shoulder/upper arm (on your picking side, not fretting side)?

I certainly hold the mandolin up higher than guitar, and the picking/chopping technique for mandolin is certainly different, too. I've been playing the mandolin now pretty much full on over the past three or four months, after 30 years playing guitar, and man is my arm sore.

Or maybe my technique is just really bad.

[John Rosett]

Try lowering the mandolin (lengthen the strap) so that your elbow is not at such an extreme angle. Also, examine how tightly you're holding the pick. Do you use the same pick for both mandolin and guitar? You might be squeezing the pick too hard. I know that I find the mandolin more physically challenging than the guitar. Hope this helps.

[catmandu2]

Being that the physicality of mandolin playing is a concentrated movement--compared with most guitar, it's easy to "tighten-up" while playing fast pieces, which inhibits playing. With any instrument, it's essential to learn to relax tension in your arm, wrist and hand to allow for fluid movment. As John says, start with your posture--especially shoulder, then work your way down to your fingers analyzing where your tension is and how to focus on relaxation while playing. Three or four months is not a long time and no doubt your body is still adjusting--good thing to work out posture/technique issues sooner rather than later.

[Sleepy]

Lortabs help

[terzinator]

Lortabs help
Um, yeah, but I doubt my doc will prescribe Vicodin for my mando discomfort!

I think the advice about loosening up is a good one. Yes, I do find that I'm more tightly wound when playing mandolin... there's that mental hangup of needing to be "more in control" of the pick, since the picking technique is a faster one. I'll lower the instrument a tad, and try to relax!

Different pick for mando and guitar. I use Blue Chips for both, but the mandolin pick is bigger/thicker.

[Alex Orr]

WEIRD! I was just thinking about this. I've played for a little over three years (usually an hour or so a day) and started noticing elbow pain in my left elbow (fretting hand arm). It's sort've a mild burning sensation and I'm thinking it's probably just some tendonitis.

[Coffeecup]

Alex, I had the same for a while when starting mandolin, after guitar. I think it was due to using too much pressure fretting. Possibly I also adjust angles somewhat, bringing the neck up more towards 45 degrees.

[Randi Gormley]

I dunno if that would be the only cause. i've been playing mandolin exclusively (never played guitar or other stringed instrument) and that same left-elbow problem just began cropping up in my arm about six months ago. I've been actively playing mandolin for probably eight years now. Oddly enough, the pain in my elbow also happens when I'm driving and don't bend my elbow for, say, 30 minutes or so. I figured, like Alex, it was a touch of tendonitis (which is much better than the osteo-arthritis that used to affect my left thumb but has apparently gone away for the nonce). Ah, to be, say, 25 again! with all my muscles, tendons and joints still new!

[catmandu2]

Ah, to be, say, 25 again! with all my muscles, tendons and joints still new!

I'd rather be 50...with the ligaments of a 25 year old ;)

Since TZ's onset is with change of habit, change is likely a significant factor. Conversely, your issues are probably from too much of a good thing! I've struggled with chronic pain from repetitive use half my life...fortunately, mostly emanating from fun stuff :mandosmiley:, rather than typing.

FWIW, I have pretty debilitating CTS...but yoga and B-complex vitamins really help a lot. YMMV

[TLaboski]

Here is my experience with my playing elbow: Tendonitis on both sides - inside and out. Stretching works well until you get it, then you need therary (physical therapy). On top of the tendonitis I have a sublexing ulnar nerve (your funny bone on the inside of your elbow). That nerve runs from your pinky and ring fingers, up your arm, to your shoulder/chest and to the back of your neck. The best thing for that, after years of getting it under control, is stretching the chest muscle and arm. Stand in a doorway, hold your arm straight out to the side and pull it back. Essentially you are counteracting the hunched over/shoulder forward slouch that can come from playing the mandolin. While you are playing take some time to stretch backwards. Obviously there is more to this, but this is the quick rundown. I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on tv.

[Randi Gormley]

Stretching is probably good for much of what ails you when it comes to sore muscles caused by bad posture or change. I've found that a yoga stretch the name of which escapes me but is actually a reverse prayer position (hands behind your back instead of at heart level) helps a lot with the left elbow thing.

[Ignatius]

How many others out there who switched from guitar to mandolin have experienced soreness in your shoulder/upper arm (on your picking side, not fretting side)?

Or maybe my technique is just really bad.
Hey terzinator--

A lot of the responses here suggest remedies for elbow problems, but your OP seems more concerned about the shoulder. If so, I had the same problem badly about a year ago, and it returns from time to time. I went to my doctor who suspected arthritis in the shoulder but first sent me to a physical therapist (PT). The therapist diagnosed quickly and said she sees this sort of problem all the time: it is likely that it is a back problem for you.

The PT told me that most people in Western nations these days spend too little time developing back muscles, which leads to bad posture (hunching when playing or working at the computer, slouching, etc.). When you are called upon to do a work like playing guitar or mandolin, good technique and posture call upon these back muscles; however, because they are weak, the burden shifts to the shoulder, leading to shoulder pain. I never noticed it until I started switching regularly between mandolin and guitar, and the PT was not surprised at this because the switching violated my muscle accommodations that had avoided stressing the back: in other words, the shift between instruments revealed the problem rather than caused it.

The PT prescribed a set of back and shoulder exercises for me that worked wonders within a week. The pain reduced easily by 40-50%, and it was virtually gone after a few months. I get lazy about the exercises now and again, and it starts creeping back again, but it disappears entirely now once I start doing the exercises again even every other day or so. The sad news is that this is probably a lifetime routine for me if I plan to keep playing so I need to learn to lock this exercise into my practice schedule.

As you suggested, thought, the PT told me to be careful to focus on correct technique on the instruments as well. If you are wrapping your hands or arms around the instrument incorrectly (even on the left), your inter-related muscle system can start feeling stress on your (right) picking shoulder. Likewise, if you are angling the instrument to allow you to see the fretboard, you might be causing stress on that shoulder as well because your picking needs to adjust accordingly. I have been working with a guitar teacher to get my guitar technique in place, and it is surprising how the rules there actually are helping me remember on my own what to be doing on the mando.

Short answer: have your doctor check if you have significant strength loss in the area of your back near your hurting shoulder. If so, that may be the problem. The good news is that it is fixable without medicine or surgery!

Ignatius

[Rob Gerety]

I started playing mandolin a fair amount recently. Played guitar a lot in the past and now. I too have noticed some shoulder and neck soreness on the picking hand side. I think it stems from the fact that I am sort of hitching my right shoulder up all the time for some reason when I play mandolin. That causes undue tension which causes some muscle soreness. It also is bad for my playing. But I am convinced that bad habit is what is causing my soreness.

[TomJ]

I'd rather be 50...with the ligaments of a 25 year old ;)

Since TZ's onset is with change of habit, change is likely a significant factor. Conversely, your issues are probably from too much of a good thing! I've struggled with chronic pain from repetitive use half my life...fortunately, mostly emanating from fun stuff :mandosmiley:, rather than typing.

FWIW, I have pretty debilitating CTS...but yoga and B-complex vitamins really help a lot. YMMV


My mom had bad carpal tunnel. She was looking into the Vitamin B6 connection to see if that would help, and she made me read this page since I was complaining about some of the same symptoms.

Makes sense. Inflammation causes B6 deficiency (http://www.tendonitisexpert.com/inflammation-causes-vitamin-b6-deficiency.html)

B6 didn't help me but totally helped her.

[Coffeecup]

A lot of the responses here suggest remedies for elbow problems, but your OP seems more concerned about the shoulder.


That could be because the title of the thread is Mandolin Elbow.

[zombywoof]

Lordy I got the elbow thing too (although no shoulder problems, at least yet). I was relieved as all get out when I finally put two and two together and figured out it was the mandolin and not bone cancer or something.

I have started playing with the sucker strapped on - I prefer to move around when I play anyway.

[Ignatius]

That could be because the title of the thread is Mandolin Elbow.
True, but the OP describes upper arm and shoulder problems; in fact, I don't see that he mentions his elbow in his post at all.

Ignatius

[terzinator]

Yeah, sorry... that's what I get for trying to be cute in my thread title... but it's not really an "elbow" problem. It's upper arm/shoulder.

So, many thanks all, and Ignatius, I'll work on strengthening my back muscles. You might be on to something there. And the other point about holding the mando to see the fretboard is true, too... I seem to have better technique when I hold the mandolin more parallel to the floor, rather than at a 45-degree angle.

[catmandu2]

My mom had bad carpal tunnel. She was looking into the Vitamin B6 connection to see if that would help, and she made me read this page since I was complaining about some of the same symptoms.

Makes sense. Inflammation causes B6 deficiency (http://www.tendonitisexpert.com/inflammation-causes-vitamin-b6-deficiency.html)

B6 didn't help me but totally helped her.

FWIW, it takes a while for it to take effect--took a few weeks for me. I suspended intake a couple of times in the past couple of years, and my symptoms worsened. If anyone else happens to find this info relevant, I'll provide my de rigeuer public health announcement: before contemplating surgery or other invasive procedures, consider other alternative remedies (e.g., B vitamins and a little yoga asana can do wonders...I would recommend yoga, generally, for everything, anyway).

[tatwell]

The timing of this post is weird. I started playing mandolin about 7 years ago while recovering from surgery on my right rotator cuff. I could not play the guitar because of the angle that I my arm was in, but the mandolin caused me no pain, other than the strange sounds hurting my ears. Eventually I was able to play the guitar again, but stuck with the mandolin. Everything was fine until about a week ago when I started noticing that my right shoulder in the rotator cuff area was sore.
I thought that it was strange, since I had not been doing anything that should have hurt me. Now that I read the comments on this thread, I realize that I have been playing more than I usually do, and playing harder and louder since I got my new mandolin. Fortunately for me, a few days of taking an otc anti-inflammatory took care of the problem. I have to admit that this gave me a small scare,thinking about another rotator cuff problem at my age-60-is not a good thing. As a side note, I do about 15 minutes or so of exercise every other day, light weights and back exercises to keep a reasonable muscle tone.

[rsgars]

I think the shoulder problem is definitely related to being tense when playing. As I play/practice I must periodically make a conscious effort to sense how tense I am. I am always amazed at how much I have tensed up, and how muc I am actually able to relax if I try. If I fail to relax myself during a whole evening of playing, I will feel it when I stop. For me it is especially in my neck.

On the elbow matter I read this thread with mixed emotions. I am glad to know that so many players suffer with the same elbow issues that I do. It means I am not alone in this being specific to playing mandolin. But, I wonder, does it relate to poor technique that all of us share?

[catmandu2]

Well, not necessarily. I've got fiddling-elbow now after working out of my new blewgrass fiddle book all last evening. I feel like I played a long tennis match off the couch. Unfortunately, tomorrow night I have to play drums at a gig, which is serious right arm work. Should I put cheese on it?

I sometimes hate when I get inspired like this.. :(

[Mandolin Mick]

I've never read this thread and then the last couple mornings when I woke up ... this thread was my first thought this morning!

I've been doubling my practice time on the mandolin and my left elbow has been bothering me when I wake up.

I've been working on a lot of crosspicking lately, hours at a time with the Jesse McReynolds DVD.

[Newtdude]

Not to sound like a hippy, but he's another vote for yoga. Find a physical (not overly meditative) instructor. It is wonderful for helping you to loosen up and strengthen muscles you didn't know you had. For me, yoga has helped cure/improve right arm numbness (probably caused by too much lab work, not, alas, too much mandolin playing) and also a pretty bad back. One nice thing about yoga is that you do it on a schedule (class is at certain times on certain days). I always intend to stretch on my own, but can tend to put it off. On the other hand, stretching on your own is free, and the saved money could be put towards another mandolin....

[terzinator]

Sorry to hear about all you folks with left-elbow trouble. But get your own thread! ;)

I kid, I kid.

Anyway, I've been really paying attention to how tense I am when playing, and what I'm finding is that my right (picking) shoulder gradually moves upward as I pick. Before I know it, my shoulder is right under my earlobe. Very tense position.

So I have to remind myself constantly to relax that shoulder and get it back down to parallel. I normally wear my strap over my left shoulder, but I might try wearing it over my right shoulder as a reminder to keep that shoulder down.

No cures yet. We're still in the diagnosis phase. But tension is a big part of it, that's fo sho.

[catmandu2]

Chris-

Have you ever played sitting down? If you try to assume a classical guitar-like position -- as opposed to hunching yourself around the mando -- this might train you to feel what it's like to feel relaxed while playing. Then, when standing and hunching, you coiuld strive for that "feeling."