excessive fret wear?

[chriss]

hey all,
I got my old mando ('70's Ibanez) refretted for the first time last yr by a good local luthier (J Thomas Davis, Columbus OH). Now after just a year I'm starting to get buzzing and the 1st 5 frets under A+E strings are worn so much they need to be replaced again already.

I play maybe an hour a day? I'm out of town 2-3 days/wk for my day job, so it wouldn't seem to be a really extraordinary amount of time actually playing it. I certainly played a LOT more than I used to which is of course a wonderful thing.:mandosmiley:

1. Does this seem excessive to people with lots of experience with this stuff?
2. Anybody know of harder fret material- stainless steel? - and a source - that I might recommend to the luthier? He builds guitars, not mandos. He seems very skilled careful. The fretboard dressing and setup were both just beautiful after the fret job last year.
thx, Chris

[Big Joe]

It just needs a good fret dress. That is not unusual and fret life depends upon not only the fret, but the strings you use, how much you play, and your technique. You certainly do not need new frets for those grooves, but a fret dress and crowning will take care of the issue. Normal maintenance like oil changes on your car.

[CES]

Second Big Joe's assessment (which is ironic and useless, since he's really an expert and I'm not).

My Kentucky is in need of a dressing and has been for a little while now. I made similar but slightly less robust grooves within the first year or so. Unfortunately, my frets appear to be thinner than yours, but still some life left.

I've tried to play with a lighter touch, but it's hard when I'm trying to compensate for the fret wear/avoid buzzing.

Stainless steel theoretically lasts longer, but, as with all things mando you'll hear reports both ways. Good luck, but you should be able to play for quite a while on those frets as long as the person dressing them and setting up your action knows their stuff.

[tree]

For me, stainless steel frets were a godsend. I used to have to ship my mandolin to have it refretted every other year, until I finally decided to try stainless steel frets.

That was 2 years ago, and those frets are as functional today as the day I got the mandolin back. There is just the faintest hint of a shadow of wear under the plain steel courses (A and E) only, but it is difficult to see and doesn't affect the fretting at all.

John Hamlett (sunburst) did the work for me. It is not an inexpensive job, but neither is it terribly expensive. It turned out to be a very good investment for me, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend you give him a PM about it.

[chriss]

Thanks for the input.
Clark, if you're comfortable sharing the number, I'd appreciate hearing what your SS fret job cost (and was it the full fretboard or just the worn ones).

thx again, C

[David Collins]

Not all fret wire is created equal, and some (i.e., Dunlop) tends to be softer than others. Jescar's nickel wire is generally the hardest, with StewMac coming in at a close second.

You could still get a fret dress out of that set before refretting, though they will of course end up a bit lower. When it comes time for a refret, of course stainless steel wire (also from Jescar) is a wonderful option, especially for players with a heavy grip. Much, much harder and more wear resistant than any nickel wire, and will last a very long time without maintenance for even the most aggressive players.

[grassrootphilosopher]

When you´re more on the "newbie" side, chances are, that you use the "death grip" on your instrument. You tend to press hard and put a lot of tension in fretting the instrument. That wears the frets out fast(er).

I´ve been playing for quite some time now. I started out on guitar. My first good guitar had to have a refret about a two years after I got it. The next refret was after 7 years. It hasn´t had a refret for over 10 years now (just a fret dressing). My real good guitar that I got 10 years ago never had nor needed a refret since. My first mandolin needed a refret after 2 years of playing. The next refret was after aditional 6 years or so. Hasn´t needed a refret since. My expensive mandolin that I got 3 years ago never needed a refret so far (but had some fret dressing). I learned how to play better and without strangling my instruments (and their tone) over the years

If the setup is substandard and you need a lot of strengt to fret, chances are that you´ll need a refret earlier than with a better setup that lets you pick with lesser force.

Note that Sam Bush has his fourth fretboard (!) on his main mandolin "Hoss". That should tell you something. I don´t think that Bill Monroe (powerhouse that he was) ever used up so many fretboards in his life.

[Rob Gerety]

I assume that for the same reasons SS lasts so long it is probably difficult to level after a new fret job. Is that true? Also, does SS cause strings to break down faster than normal?

[Big Joe]

Like everything, there are good points and not so good. It addresses the issue of fret wear, but not always other issues. It can cause a bit more string wear and some say it affects tone. I have played both and prefer the non SS wire personally. It is much harder on tools than other wire and a bit more difficult to work with. I don't think it is the answer to all the world's problems that some have thought. I have seen a lot pro musicians that hate them and want them out of thier instruments. It may be they feel different to them or sound different. Most often they just say they don't like them and can't give a really definitive reason other than they just don't like them. That is not for all musicians, but quite a few. Like most things, it is a personal decision.

[David Collins]

Stainless steel frets certainly feel different, without a doubt, but as to tone I've never been able to detect a difference. I've done a number of partial refrets using stainless as well, and have quizzed customers to attempt to identify the precise transition point by tone, and none have ever been able to detect any tonal difference at all.

Likewise I believe Mario Proulx has done quite a bit of work with stainless wire (care to chime in Mario?), and if I recall correctly said that he when he began to use it never told the customers, and not a one ever heard anything negative at all.

It's actually a surprise to me, as when I first began experimenting with it I fully expected to hear a difference. After all, you are changing the material of the secondary saddle, so to speak. In the end however, and after some pretty well controlled comparisons (such as partial refrets), I've not been able to find any discernible tonal effect. The stiffness and mass are already at such a point that it seems the changes end up being more abstract. The nickel wire is already hard and massive enough that it does not absorb a great deal of the vibrations, but rather reflects or transmits quite efficiently as it is. Though the change to stainless may alter these factors slightly, it is already so small as to be insignificant. If a component absorbs 0.05% of the energy of a string, and you change that by 50%, it just doesn't make much difference in the end. That's my theory anyway, or possible explanation for my observations.

It is harder on the tools, but I haven't found it to be much of a factor until you get in to the jumbo wire. Even then, it's only cutting that really demands different tools than nickel wire, and the radius needs to be more accurate as it will not simply conform to the board as easily as nickel. For an .080"x.040" range wire however, none of this seems to be too big of a deal. Of course dressing can be harder, but if the board is well prepped and frets consistently installed, this needn't be any real issue either.

Honestly, the only people I've heard who have complained of tonal changes are those who were conscious of the fact that they were playing on stainless wire. If a true blind test were done (a bit of a challenge due to the difference in the polished feel), I don't think many would be able to identify nickel from stainless by tone alone.

I've never seen a difference in wear on strings. Yes, they will get dents where they touch the frets, but so will they on nickel frets. I think people just look at them more closely when using stainless wire because they expect to find it. In order for nickel frets to be much easier on the strings they would have to give a lot more than they actually do, and you would have to be using a wire so soft as to need a fret dress about as often as you change your strings. Not a real concern in my opinion even if it did happen, because as I said, strings get dents from nickel frets too, and I generally change my strings often enough not to worry about it much.

[Lefty Luthier]

Based on a single quantative test using my spectrum analyzer, I found no difference between stainless and nickel silver frets. I think any percieved difference may have more to do with the feel of the strings vibrating against the frets, which was my personal observation. I much prefer nickel silver frets, particularly on radiused fretboards.

[Rob Gerety]

Can you describe how they feel compared to standard frets? I'm thinking of slides and bends.

[David Collins]

Can you describe how they feel compared to standard frets? I'm thinking of slides and bends.

Slick. Like glass. Make sure your frets are immaculately polished, then rub butter all over them. That's what it feels like.

Takes a bit of getting used to, but I love it.

[Rob Gerety]

Slick. Like glass. Make sure your frets are immaculately polished, then rub butter all over them. That's what it feels like.

I like the sound of that.

[David Collins]

To be honest, I haven't actually noticed that big of a difference on acoustic guitars or mandolins. It's certainly there, but I don't thing it's quite as significant as the effect on electric guitars, where you are likely to do more bending with lighter strings. In those cases it seems to affect a more notable change in feel, and was certainly enough to catch me by surprise when I refretted my Strat with stainless. Took a little getting used to, but I definitely like it.

[Philphool]

I had the same fret wear problem on my mando. Grooves in less than a year. I know that the cause is my heavy handed playing, which I'm trying hard to change (with some success).

Anyway, I had my FB totally refretted with stainless steel about 14 months ago. No detectable wear since then at all. Smooth feel to the frets when sliding. No detectable change in tone. In short, "I love them."

I've got stainless steel on 2 mandos and if I had one made today, I'd do it again. Or I might try the new "gold stuff" (I can't remember the name) that is supposed to be tougher than SS.

Here's (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50317&highlight=stainless+steel+frets) a link to a previous discussion on SS frets and tone.

[chriss]

Phil, who did the SS fret job for you? My local luthier said he does not have tooling to work with SS.

thx,
Chris

[Rob Gerety]

I wonder - what is the typical charge for someone experienced to do a complete fret job on a bound mandolin neck? SS v. Regular?

Also, any reason to hesitate if you are talking about a vintage Gibson v. a modern mandolin???

[David Collins]

Phil, the gold wire is called EVO (doesn't actually contain any gold). It's actually not harder than stainless, but rather in between nickel and stainless. Most 18% nickel wires come anywhere from HV5-140 to HV5-200 (Vickers hardness scale). Jescar's wire is HV5-200, about as hard as you get with nickel wire. StewMac's wire comes in at HV5-179, which for all practical purposes is about as good. You find softer wire when you get in to some of the Dunlop stuff (junk) and PolyMet wire. The Stainless wire comes in at HV5-300, which is quite a difference, and the EVO rates around HV5-250, which though still considerably harder than nickel is still quite a bit less than stainless.

Chris, I would talk to your tech about trying to work with the stainless a bit more. Many assume it's considerably harder to work with, but it really isn't. A little, but not enough to be much of a deterrent or require any terribly specialized tooling. See paragraph 4 in my post above.

Rob, it's not usually that much. As I said, it's a bit harder on the tools, and may take a bit more prep time, but not that much. I usually add 15-20% for a stainless refret, or another $40-$60, sometimes a bit more with jumbo wire. And no, no reason to hesitate at all with using stainless on a vintage refret. Lot's of people worry about effect on value of a refret, but if the frets are worn or need to be replaced anyway, the damage is already done, and service to return it to functionality will only recover some of the value already lost (rare museum-level preservation pieces aside).

Once the frets are replaced, they are replaced, and there's little reason in my opinion to pretend they are original. If you are restoring to vintage accuracy for resale to a preservationist or collector, then of course you would use as authentic an original wire style as possible. If the service has function as priority, choose what best suits your needs. If the instrument is to receive a good deal of playing, it could even be argued that stainless is better for preservation, as it could help avoid future refrets which could be potentially invasive. For resale it could even add value as a functional benefit to as many buyers as it may detract value from being non-original.

So if it's a preservation piece, don't refret it at all. If it's a player, and you play it a lot, there's no reason to avoid stainless in my opinion.

[Lefty Luthier]

I wonder - what is the typical charge for someone experienced to do a complete fret job on a bound mandolin neck? SS v. Regular?

Also, any reason to hesitate if you are talking about a vintage Gibson v. a modern mandolin???

For me, the big difference is whether the fretboard is radius or flat. For SS, getting the radius bend perfect is essential before pressing the fret in. That takes lots of extra time. The only other factor is that SS is more difficult to smooth the ends so that they don't cut your finger. For these reasons, I charge $50 more for SS than nickel silver but the bright side is that once done, the SS frets last forever so over time are less expensive if you play a lot.

[David Collins]

For these reasons, I charge $50 more for SS than nickel silver


I usually add 15-20% for a stainless refret, or another $40-$60, sometimes a bit more with jumbo wire.

There you go - seems to be an average consensus here so far. :)

[Phil Vinyard]

I took my Gibson Jam Master to Matt Harmon at Mass St. Music in Lawrence KS for a basic set up/tune up. I bought the thing in August and this was in December and there were already some pretty good sized grooves in my frets under the E and A strings. Matt gently lectured me on not pushing down so hard on the strings, and also lowered the action on the A and E strings by filing down the nut ever so slightly.

With the lower action I don't have to push down as hard, and I've also found that my speed is much better without all the heavy-handed playing.

Good luthiers are good for your instrument and your playing!

[fishtownmike]

I use the jescar wire. It's tougher then the standard stew mac stuff. As for stainless steel i don't like its sound. It sounds brighter to my ear. I'll stick to the standard nickel based wire.