Playing fast

[Bluegrasstjej]

I know there are actually lessons on this on the cafe main page, but I'm curious to know what you have done to build speed and what has helped most to learn playing fast?

I'm having a problem with this, my left hand doesn't seem able to move fast enough, is it only a matter of practice?

[davestem]

It is most definitely a matter of practice. #If you practice persistently, you will be able to achieve right and left hand speeds that probably seem unreal right now. #However, you must be patient with your hands. #You're trying to get them to do some very hard things, so understand that it will take time!

There are lots exercises available for speeding yourself up (this is good news). #In fact, almost any exercises you play will have a peripheral effect of increasing your ability to play quickly, simply by making your hands more and more accustomed to the motions of playing. #(The same is true of playing songs, not just exercises.)

To specifically focus on speed, though, there are some exercises at www.mandozine.com (formerly www.co-mando.com), & particularly useful for right-hand speed are John Moore's picking exercises. #Particularly useful for left-hand strength and combined left-hand and right-hand speed are Jethro Burns' and Tim O'Brien's arpeggio exercises.

To make the best use of these exercises, though, you MUST (absolutely MUST) use a metronome. #It will force you to learn to play steadily (while learning to play quickly), and also allow you to keep track of your progress. #There are many free computer metronome programs available for download; a quick search on Google will find plenty.

Some of these exercises are TablEdit files. #You will need to download the (free and small) Tabledit Viewer to view them and print them out. #If you search the archives, you can find a ton of information about the TablEdit Viewer.

There are also some good articles about how to practice, what to practice, and how to build speed at Mandozine. #I urge you to read them--they're very helpful. #One thing you will commonly hear while seeking the answer to your question is this: #"Don't worry about playing fast. #Worry about playing well." #I agree with this; learn to play well, and a certain measure of speed will come on its own. #Once you get to that point, though, you'll have to start working on how to play fast AND well.

[Peter Hackman]

How fast do you want to play? How fast do you need to play? Are your needs dictated
by your urge for expression or by pressure from your fellow players?

Lots of bluegrass is too fast for my ears, and I don't see the need for tempos
where the bass player can't keep up in four, or where
you get stuck on your old ideas or in very rigid and square rhythmic patterns.

Listen to some of the stuff by Flatt and Scruggs, the groove they get into
in more moderate tempos, songs like Dim Lights, Thick Smoke,
I'm Waiting to Hear You Call Me Darling or Doin' My Time.
Who needs breakneck tempo breakdowns
after that?

No answer to your question, of course. Learn everything slow, then play progressively
faster, is the traditional wisdom.

If your left hand can't keep up, maybe the action is too high.
Check whether your
nut is cut properly, because that affects playability all over the neck.
If not, don't try to fix it yourself!

[Kelly_guy]

I'm struggling with the same problem, playing fast while keeping the sound clean. I went 'round and 'round with my instructor (Sims from Harmonious Wail), convinced that it was my left hand that was the problem. Or more specifically, timing between my left and right hands.

He insisted that it is at least 90% picking technique, and he finally convinced me. The more I work on right hand techniques, the better I can play a passage. And when I get stuck trying to play a particular passage faster, it is my right hand that is usually at fault. I try to find the exact picking pattern where I'm having trouble, and focus on that.

We went through this in one lesson, using a simple song like Old Joe Clark. He tapped out a tempo and asked me to play at that tempo, no faster. We kept going over it again at faster tempos, and I fell apart probably in the 220 bpm range or a bit faster. And he said that I fell apart because my entire right arm got stiff and I started trying to play with my whole forearm rather than a relaxed wrist.

[danb]

I find it's repetition, done as mindlessly as possible. You're excercising your muscles, not your thinker.. I tend to practice tricky bits of tunes slowly, while watching TV, the fishtank, outside talking to the family, or.. something else distracting. Slowly your subconscious gets it, and the technique adjusts.

[pdlstl]

I always answer these posts in the same way...

1. 90% is correct pick direction. Period. End of story.

2. The other 90% is using each finger to handle two frets.
IE: first finger handles frets 1 & 2. Middle finger handles frets 3 & 4, etc. #Not one finger per fret ala guitar playing.

These two things when done properly will increase your speed tremendously.

[Flowerpot]

Ditto for the metronome, pick direction, and knowing precisely which left hand finger is going to fret the next note.

As for practice routines, what helped me tremendously was choosing a "speed song" and practicing it (I think this was a Steve Kaufman guitar practicing idea). Choose something that you know inside and out, which you can play the same note for note each time you play it. Hopefully something that sounds good fast. Then with the metronome, start pushing yourself. (Set the metronome for sixteenth notes, you pick 4 notes for every click, 120bpm = normal square dance tempo.) Go past the point of being able to play perfectly, knowing that you're going to crash and burn. A couple of times through is plenty. Don't do it for very long at a time, and maintain 90% of your practice time playing cleanly at slower tempos. But do it every day. As time progresses, add a new "speed song" every week, each in a different key. It worked really well for me, and my top speed kept going up every week.

Speed is good not only for being able to pick banjo tunes, but having a high top speed will make things at normal tempos come out cleaner, and will condition your brain to do more creative things on the fly at mid-tempos. But ultimately, the only way to be able to play fast is to practive playing fast (and the only way to play cleanly is to practice playing cleanly, so you have to do both).

Edited to add: when practicing uptempo, alternate between rythm chop and solo notes, with the metronome, as getting in and out of a break without changing tempo is not a piece of cake at breakneck speeds.

[jlb]

There is a pit fall to becoming a slave to speed. One I fell in, and it took me a while to climb back out. If you do nothing but aim play tunes fast over a period, you can forget how to play things slow or at moderate tempos, and when slower tempos are called for, you can have a tendency to want to rush things.

Just something to look out for out of my own experience.

[Brad Weiss]

The best way to learn to play quickly is to practice playing slowly.

[mikeyes]

Speed should not be a goal, good technique and performance are the key to efficient playing just as it is in any sport. Stiffness and perceived lack of speed is a result of what athletes call "match anxiety" if you are playing in the public and simple lack of good technique if it occurs in practice.

If you watch a good individual athlete you will see that there are no extraneous movements and that every part of the sports action is smooth and efficient. The best runners only use the muscles needed to run and relax the rest. The result is 100% effort from those muscles that are needed and no interfering opposition from the other muscles. In order to achieve this you first have to have learnt the technique of the sport and then be able to relax the opposing muscles that inhibit the efficient use of the technique.

Bottom line? Learn to play properly at a slow rate then practice, practice, practice. As performance evolves, so will speed. If your goal is to play fast, you might reach that goal but have no style or grace in your playing. Speed is only there when you need it and if you are not ready for it, then don't expect it until you improve your technique.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

I would suggest practicing with a purpose, not mindlessly, but at a set speed with a metronome rather than practicing until you "break down". #The problem with practicing until you can't go any faster is that you end up training your muscles how to make mistakes. #Each time you make a mistake it takes 7 or 8 correct repeatitions to "overwrite" the muscle memory.

Take the solo you want to learn and play it with a metronome set to 80 for your quarter notes. #For the first week don't go over 80 beats per minute. #It will be boring and it will feel slow but you will be playing the solo over and over perfectly. #You can concentrate on your tone and your hands will be very relaxed. #One thing that I do is to just solo over bluegrass chords at 80 BPM for several minutes at a time. Sometimes I'm practicing a specific solo, other times I'm just soloing, But always at a slow speed.

Then, after one or two weeks kick the metronome up to 96 or 100. #That will still seem WAY slow. but what's happening is that your muscles and your brain are learning to make those movments correctly and without tension in your hands.

After several weeks of this slow practice you can try to play faster at "up to tempo" speeds. #If you have problems go back to the metronome. #You can speed up the metronome now, but don't practice at the speed where you're almost-but-not-quite making mistakes. #You want to practice slower than that speed. #Practicing at the speed where you're just about perfect but almost a train wreck waiting to happen causes stress in your hands and doesn't help you improve your speed. #Practicing many hours at a slow speeds will get you where you want to be.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Thank you everyone for your advice. I will most certainly use lots of your suggestions.

I think too as some of you point out, that good technique is better and more important than playing fast. But, I play slowly not because I choose to, but because I'm not able to play fast. I want to be able to choose, and to play fast when I feel like it.

In my case, it's almost always a problem in my left hand. It happens that I don't use a correct pick direction, but also when I've find the right direction, I can't play fast because my left hand can't keep up. But I've got some great advice here and I'll use it.
I don't have a problem (anymore) with using a metronome, more than maybe that my cat plays with the pendulum...but I can always put it on a high shelf.
I understand it must be good using a metronome, so that I can actually see my progress. Otherwise I tend to do as someone said, just speed up until I crash. And it's good if I can actually see that "ok, last week I could only play at 90 bpm, now I can play at 120 bpm, that's nice".

Thanks everyone!

[pdlstl]

I apologize if I'm seeming "pushy" on this but I can't stress enough how important pick direction along with proper left-hand fingering is. #What others have said here is true, you can't play it fast until you can play it slow. However, if you learn it slow, incorrectly, you will reach a point(speed) you can't advance beyond without the aforementioned two items.

Before I accepted this theory, I was good to about 180 bpm's and no faster. Everything would just breakdown beyond 180. I now play at 220-240 depending on the tune. And it feels so much more "right" than it did before. My solos now flow without the feeling of teetering on the brink of uncontrollability.

A couple of short quotes from the download page right here at mandolincafe.com regarding pic direction.


Pick direction can be one of the single greatest problems that
gets in the way of good single-line or lead playing. I'm
talking about what I consider to the single greatest problem
that gets in the way of good single-line or lead playing. I'm
talking about a logical approach to playing lead lines that
consists of a very simple set of rules that surround when you use downstrokes and when you use upstrokes.

When I give a lesson to someone who plays lead, one of the
first things I always do is carefully watch the right hand (I
guess after about 15 years of teaching I'm still waiting on
my first leftie). Oddly, most of us concentrate on the left
hand or the hand that selects the individual notes. We rarely
think about the hand moving the pick up and down. We assume
it's correct and that if problems exist, they must exist only
in the left hand.

Again I apologize but these two items will take you further than you realize (even if you have to go past a string to stroke it the proper direction.

Good luck. You'll get there!

[Flowerpot]

"After several weeks of this slow practice you can try to play faster at "up to tempo" speeds. If you have problems go back to the metronome. You can speed up the metronome now, but don't practice at the speed where you're almost-but-not-quite making mistakes. You want to practice slower than that speed. Practicing at the speed where you're just about perfect but almost a train wreck waiting to happen causes stress in your hands and doesn't help you improve your speed. Practicing many hours at a slow speeds will get you where you want to be." --

It's good to hear everybody's opinions about this, but I have to disagree here. Like I said before, I agree that you should spend 90% of your time practicing slowly and cleanly. But if that's all you do, and you never push the limit, how can you expect to get faster? You can't learn to run by walking quickly. You gotta try running, and fall down occasionally. Nor can you learn economy of motion in muscle movement by playing exclusively at speeds which don't require it.

Speaking from years of being frustrated at being stuck at 128 and eventually being able to play at 140 to 160 cleanly (back when I had an hour a day to do it), it only happened by pushing the envelope every day. But only during 10 minutes or so of the practice hour. Yes, at first it's ugly, but it gets better, and soon you will find yourself in the middle of a quick tune, and the brain is saying "Hey, this ain't so bad... I've done this before,", rather than saying "Whoa, I can't do this." I know I'm swimming upstream here, but I still firmly believe from my own experience that if you only practice slowly, you will forever play slowly (or mid-tempo). People tend to have a natural speed "ceiling" that kicks in if things are never pushed. For those of you who don't have the need for speed, fine, but if you're in a performing bluegrass band, you're gonna need it sooner or later, and there are many cases where it means the difference between being able to take a break or not, or between sounding decent or awful. And having the ability to play faster makes playing at mid-tempo seem effortless, and releases your mind from mechanics to be able to exercise more creativity. Speed, in my mind, is indeed a goal unto itself, along with tone, timing, taste, etc. As long as the other goals aren't being neglected, it's a noble goal and a good measure of progress.

By the way, anybody take classes in school or other instruction for typing? Did you learn how to type quickly by practicing slowly, and a rate where you didn't make any mistakes at all? Or somewhere along the line did your instructor make you do "speed drills?" Maybe I'm old school, but my experience was the latter. We would take one or two sentences which have short, often-used words, and see how fast we could type them, paying no particular regard to mistakes. After weeks of doing this -- a SMALL percentage of the class time -- the mistakes started going down, and the speed went up, but not just for those sentences, but for everything. I think the same principle applies.

[Flyer]

Good Thread...

Thanks for the question....and thanks to all for the great advice


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[sgarrity]

Can someone elaborate on what exactly is the proper pick direction?

[pdlstl]

Sure.

Many (most) 4/4 bluegrass tunes of an up-tempo (160bpm+) consist of many measures loaded with eighth notes.

To simplify things, all quarter notes are played with a downstroke and eighth notes are played with down-up-down-up strokes. On the downbeat, your pick should going down.

Eight eighth notes should be played d-u-d-u-d-u-d-u. No matter if you have to go past a string to stroke it properly. For example, if the first eighth note of a measure is the 4th. fret on the D string and the second eighth is played at the 2nd. fret of the A string, the pick would downstroke the first note on the D string then the pick would travel past the A to then make an upstroke on the second note.

Two quarter notes followed by four eighth notes would be played:d-d-d-u-d-u.

Go to the downloads page here at mandolincafe.com to read a nice little article on the subject.

[pdlstl]

Here's a little exercise.

Play a scale of eighth notes. "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and".

On the downbeats (1,2,3,4) make sure your pick is making a downstroke. On the upbeats (he "ands") make sure your pick is making an upstroke.

When you get to the last note of the scale, it should be an upstroke. As you descend, you first note should be a downstroke and you should end with an upstroke. Don't pick two downstrokes or upstrokes in a row at any time.

As you do this, you will start to feel a flow to the exercise.

Aso, tap your foot. Went your foot hits the floor, your pick should be moving down. When your foot hits the top, your pick should be making an upstroke.

[pdlstl]

flowerpot,

I totally agree with you. When I'm learning a passage slowly, it's only to commit it to memory. Once it's burned in, I then start cranking the metronome.

[Bluegrasstjej]

I agree, we have to push our limits to improve. But before doing it we have to really know the tune perfectly.


Pdlstl, you've just met your first left hand. I've never had problems with my pick direction, just recently when I learned Whiskey before breakfast, but as soon as I corrected that, it feels good. When I do screw up, it's because of my left hand. That's it.

I'll pick some of the tunes I can play very well, use the metronome and gradually increase the speed. I'll check for those arpeggio exercises, and there are some crosspicking tunes I use for exercises.

[pikinskirider]

I think this is a good line of conversation. I want to add to it, but less in a technical manner and more in a philosophical way. I have picked this stuff up (no pun intended) from other musicians and teachers and it always pops in my head when I read a thread like this:

1) Speed can not be rushed, you can only relax into speed.
I have found that when I am playing something so fast that I'm tense(and my face looks like an epileptic guerilla)-it falls apart. I'm not playing within myself and it shows. Knowing a tune well, means knowing have fast you can play it cleanly.

2)When you think about your mandolin playing (and speed) don't think about how good you wish you were. I wish I could burn a tune like the Dawg or Ronnie Mcoury, but is that realistic? Think about how good you were--last month or last week or better yet last year. This will help you to stay focused and not get frustrated.
Good luck.

[freddyu]

Had a speed breakthrough last night. Have often wondered if overall speed is gained one song or passage at a time. Or, if getting one lead up to speed enables you to play others at that speed as well, ie an overall pickup in speed because brain and hands break through a self imposed speed barrier. Been working on a lead from a Blue Highway song, Lonesome Pine, and finally got it to where I could keep up with the CD. When I went to another song on the same CD I actually played this one up to speed as well, one that before last night I had been unable to play. Needless to say I was psyched. Look out Shawn Lane, I'm gain'in on ya baby!

[Keith Wallen]

Good comments and I would offer two more things to be mindful of. Left hand structure. Make sure your fingers are in a good position to get to the next note effortlessly and also make sure your fingers that aren't making notes stay close to the finger board. A lot of people when their finger is not making a not pull 1/2" or more away from the finger board.

pick direction... practice... pick direction... practice...:p

[freddyu]

Mdln- you just hit on something I struggle with. Keeping those non-noting fingers close to the fret board. ie- flying fingers. Any excercises or suggestion on fixing this, short of tying them down? Thanks.

[angrymandolinist]

I remember someone on here saying to practice in front of a wall or chair, left hand maybe an inch away from it, so your fingers have no air to fly.

[steve in tampa]

Get up well before sunrise, make a pot of coffee, and practice before the events of the day fill your head. You will progress!

[hoosiermando]

Howdy all! I had a real playing speed breakthrough recently. I was getting pretty proud of my growing repertoire of songs that I could play pretty flawlessly (but not very fast) while reading the music from the page. At a recent lesson, my instructor forced me to put away the sheet music and books and play some of my favorite tunes from memory. I panicked! I told her I could work on it for the next week, but she wouldn't let me off the hook. Amazingly, I was able to pick out the notes from nearly every song. The whole next week I forced myself to not open a book or put out a piece of sheet music, but to work from memory or feel only. This has opened up 2 new worlds for me: speed and feeling. When your brain is focused on reading notes, it slows everything else down. Use the books and sheet music to learn the intial notes, but then close your eyes and watch your speed and feeling blossom. Hope this helps!

[TeleMark]

Look out Shawn Lane, I'm gain'in on ya baby!
Well, that's sorta unfair, as Shawn will, sadly, never get any faster... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I find that the metronome technique works, and I try to play speed songs at something too fast for comfort from time to time. It seems to help the process along.

TeleMark

[glauber]

I know this isn't what we want to hear, but the best way to play fast is to slow down, practice slow, get it perfect first. I use a metronome to slow me down. The speed will only come when we stop worrying about playing fast.

It's a Zen thing! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AmosMoses]

While I agree with those who say to learn a song well before increasing speed. I also believe at my age(46), 3 yrs playing mando and playing in a local band that I have to push the speed envelope at times when I practice. I feel that I have to train my fingers hit those speeds now while I still can.

I saw Earl Skruggs on TV a while back and was amazed at how fast he could still play. Then I thought that's because he's been doing it all his life. If someone 50 or 60 just started learning the banjo it's unlikely they would ever achieve that speed.

Of course I could be wrong.

[mandoman15]

I always answer these posts in the same way...

1. 90% is correct pick direction. Period. End of story.

2. The other 90% is using each finger to handle two frets.
IE: first finger handles frets 1 & 2. Middle finger handles frets 3 & 4, etc. Not one finger per fret ala guitar playing.

These two things when done properly will increase your speed tremendously.
1. 90% is correct pick direction. Period. End of story.

2. The other 90% is using each finger to handle two frets...



The other 90%??

[Baron Collins-Hill]

its base 7 silly...

either that or mandolin is 180% better than any other instrument

[mando andy]

Thile covers this in his dvd--but how do you get the pinkie to stay close to board?

Tips, suggestions, testimonials?

Andy
Madison, WI

[adda_as]

I had the problem that my pinkie, and all the other fingers were jumping far away.. What I did, was to start slowy, and all the time think about NOT jumping it far away.. After many days of focusing on keeping your fingers close to the board, it will start to happen automatically.

Now I have problems not to have them close to the board #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[peterbc]

One thing that seems like it's only been briefly mention is relaxation. I think that's the biggest hurdle, or was for me. I played in a bluegrass band this summer that plays waaaaayyy faster than just about anybody and I was struggling for a while, and I found I almost had to not think about it and just do it. Uh, sorta like what Yoda said, "Do or do not, there is no try" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But as soon as I started thinking about how I need to play faster I'd tense up which would make me sloppy and made it hard to play at those speeds.

Another thought is that playing rythm at high speeds might help you get ahold of the beat so you don't need to focus on it as much, so you have a sort of internal metronome.