tortoise shell picks?

[jim_n_virginia]

lately when I am browsing eBay I have been finding myself searching for and looking at antique tortoise shell products like haircombs and cigarette holders and wondering what kind of picks they would make if I band sawed them into into picks.

Is this how people get shell picks? I know they are illegal to make now but what about already old material, any laws against that?

I would just like to try one out for a while and since Guitar Center doesn't seem to carry them (just kidding YOU KNOW!) I am thinking about making my own as long it is legal to do.

Is there a certain type of shell used? I mean what if I find an old box turtle dead in my garden, will it's shell make good picks? Or does it have to be antique? Or is it only sea turtle used?

Can anyone shed a little light on the mistique of using shell as a pick? Thanks!

[FrankenMouse]

The only type of shell that works well comes from the endangered Hawksbill tortoise. The problem with using even antique tortoise shell, is that (as with ivory) trade in the legal stuff fuels the sales of poached materials. But I won't give a lecture...

There's some helpful information is this discussion from the Unoffical Martin Guitar Forum:

http://pub125.ezboard.com/ftheuno....5.topic (http://pub125.ezboard.com/ftheunofficialmartinguitarforumfrm72.showNextMessa ge?topicID=285.topic)

[mandoJeremy]

To be completely honest, I HATE tortoise shell picks. The tone is way too bright for me and they are too much work to keep in "picking" shape. Sand, compound, and polish....I'd rather do it on my car.

[Luthier Vandross]

I can't live without it!

It's got to be about 85 thousandths, and I dunno why you get a bright sound, it's the only thing I can find that makes a neutral sound.. the proper shape for a turtle pick is rounded over.. you have to hold it completely perpendicular to the string, and be not afraid to dig in hard.

I never polish them, I just use a nailfile.

M

[mandoJeremy]

Whatever there Mr. Vandross! #Believe me, I know how to dig in and hold my pick. #I also very much know how to cut my "T" picks because I did sell them when I could get them from a guy in Canada for five bucks a piece. #Sorry I just wasted at least 15 years from your life when I just gave five of them away for free. #I still HATE!

[Scotti Adams]

..easy there Jeremy....Once upon a time the only thing I would use was tortis...then I went to Fender extra heavies in the teardrop shape.....now Im back to the turtle....not to bright sounding to me....the only pick for me....again.

[John Ely]

Many people do reclaim old tortoise jewelery for their picks. Whether doing so "fuels" demand for new tortoise is open to debate. One might argue that the demand is there regardless of whether old material is reclaimed, and using old material fills the already existing demand without killing turtles. I doubt we will settle this here, but be aware that there are two defensible positions about the use old material.

As someone said, your garden turtle's shell will not work. It is the hawksbill turtle that provides the stuff we want.

I find the new kind of Tortis makes a very good substitute for real tortoise shell. Give it a try. http://www.redbeartrading.com/cbspecial.shtml I like tortiose shell, but I do find it to be on the brighter end of the spectrum. Unlike some other bright sounding materials, though, tortoise seems to give more complexity and doesn't seem shrill. Sometimes I want a darker sound than it provides. Tortoise shell is not a magic bullet.

[mandoJeremy]

Yeah, I had a psycho moment there didn't I Scotti? I did edit a little!

[Luthier Vandross]

LOL!

I din't mean to come off like a meany, I was saying all that with a happy voice! I do love 'em!

I wasn't questioning your technique, buddy! Serious! I was just describing my own experience, I didn't see what the big deal was either, until I used one of those Dawg picks, and went home to file a shell one.

"I got fined $500,000 for shooting that red-tailed hawk, and eating it.."..

"What!? What'd it taste like?"..

-picks teeth-

"...'bout like bald eagle.."

;)

M

[Darryl Wolfe]

I watch ebay alot for tortoise items...not to make picks necessarily. I was bidding on genuine antique late 1800's tortoise comb (mens regular hair comb, not a ladys hair deal). The auction was stopped a few days later because the ad stated it was "real tortoise". My point, it appears to be illegal regardless of the provenance of the item

[fatt-dad]

Interesting tidbit: If you were to somehow stumble upon a dead Hawksbill tortise (or the shell of one), it would be illegal to harvest the remains. The only legal course of action is to notify the State Department of (whatever) and let them know about it. Not that I'm in the business, I just have a cigar-smoking buddy that works for the State Department of ____ (whatever), and we were discussing a local incident where a de-shelled tortise was found along the shoreline. We then discussed what the regulator/environmental cops do about it and to my surprise, they do little (not to imply they are ambivalent). It turns out if they do too much public notice for information on the perp, their chances of finding the person become less and less. Rather they just quietly notify the locals, their staff, etc. and document that there was this awful thing that took place. In time, they do catch these people, whoever they are.

I have one turtle pick - never use it. I have heard of people using combs though and it would likely work.

f-d

luthier vandross... thats a funny name... anyways.. ive seen bone and horn picks do these compare? ive played with a pick made of some kind of hoof once it seemed really nice at the time but that was years ago so who knows really......

[Big Joe]

I love tortoise shell and find it to be the perfect pick to bring out the best and most natural tone in an acoustic instrument. I can't imaging using anything else. I've tried every gimick that comes down the pike and nothing compares to me. Different strokes for different folks.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Hey Big Joe. There are so few real tortise shell picks out there that you may be one of the few people who could answer this: Have you had an opportunity to compare a real tortise shell pick with one of the new "Tortis" picks? I have a Tortis pick and while it sounds good and feels great I'm just somehow more comfortable with my Wegan M150 picks. I dunno, at $18 a piece maybe I just REALLY want the pick to be special. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'd be interested to know how you feel the real thing compares to a Tortis pick.

Thank you.

[Dan Cole]

Having the good fortune to have a tortoise pick, I would say that a Wegen M150 is the best bet. I also have a Tortis brand which I like too, but I'm so worried about loosing the dumb things, real or imatation that a Wegen or Dwg/Golden GAte is the pick getting the biggest workout on my mando..

Like I suggested in an earlier post, I'd love to read or hear about a "Mando Tasting" event where an expert compared the tonal qualities of real Tortoise, Tortis, Wegen, DAWG, Golden Gate, usw.

That would be interesting.

[neal]

Just a heads up for those that want one of these. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20831&item=3748328310&rd=1)

[neal]

or this. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20831&item=3748327570&rd=1)

[Luthier Vandross]

ive seen bone and horn picks do these compare?
Great question, answered for me in the last month, by chance.

A friend bought these antique book ends that are some kind of black horn sculpted as a pair of crows.. the wings *were* sliced horns, that were heated flat, then carved... like 2/4 thick... real thick. Makes GREAT pics! It's very much like a natural fingernail, and that is what I like about tortoise.

I used to keep horses, and never considered hoof, although you could get enough trimmings around a big stable to last a lifetime, in a single day. I think that is an excellent idea.. gonna try that.

Real shell is *COMPLETELY ILLEGAL* for trade, yes.

Hey Joe, I am with you... I do like the Golden Gate pics too though.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

M

[Luthier Vandross]

Those auctions are in violation of the 1992 act, you can do Federal time for listing.... I mean, you wouldn't... but you could.


M

[jim simpson]

I used to use a T-shell pick that seemed perfect. I lost it at night at a festival and thought I would never find a pick that I would be happy with. I did find that I liked the Clayton 1.25 pick and used it for a long time until more recently I have been converted to the Pro-plec 1.5 pick. I love it. I do currently own a
T-shell pick that was given to me and I must say that I prefer the Pro-plec to it. I have heard similar reports from others. At least the Pro-plec is replacable (unless they stop making them). I use the standard guitar shaped one.

[Salty Dog]

I do not believe it is illegal to trade "old" tortoise, otherwise buying and selling older Gibson As would be illegal as the pickguards are tortiose. #A while back, E-bay had a problem with those who mentioned the tortoise pick guard but have apparently checked out the law and allow "old" tortoise to be sold.

[Luthier Vandross]

Unprocessed, if you cut up a big piece that was a plate, all of a sudden you have unprocessed shell.

I know someone who has a shell big enough to make a shirt out of, she's a marine biology teacher, she can get all of it we want... but we can't have it.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

...no such thin as a bilogy teacher..

M

[neal]

Auction closed.

[AeroJoe]

I started making TS picks a very long time ago...

Here's a few pointers...

TS picks can require upkeep as noted in Wayne Benson's Accutab Book. But if you have the extrememly high quality shell, you won't find this to be applicable. The highest quality shell has a very golden-amber coloration in the lighter areas, (as opposed to a milky "cataract" appearance) and the dark areas will be blood-red (as opposed to a caramel brown.) Once in a rare while, I have found a piece that was nearly solid black in appearance until held under a light...then it literally glowed laser-red. If you use the highest quality shell, you will find you won't have to re-buff or re-polish, unless you want to intentionally change the shape.

Ebay used to be good hunting grounds...selling grounds too...but there is a guy on there by the user name of "borkum_riff" that is a Georgia State Wildlife Officer. I had some nice ones on Ebay one time and he was the high bidder...he immedidately contacted me, said he had a friend up my way that would meet me at a rest stop on I-95, and would have cash in hand...for any and all I wanted to sell. I smelled a rat... As soon as Ebay sent me the seller ID at the conclusion of the auction, as they always do, I looked him up...and found out what I stated above.

Nice try...

Don't keep any in my case anymore, don't keep any in the house, or on my property. Paranoid/extreme admittedly, but I'm not going to jail over a turtle. I have mine buried in specific places and go get them when I need them (no, I won't tell you where...)

I don't think any of you will have a problem if you use them...it's when you start buying or worse, selling/advertising them that poses a potential problem.

I would not put it past someone to get busted at some point at some festival somewhere. I remember the article about a lawyer that happened to have the indian warrior Geronimo's war bonnet in his possession...I can't remember how long it had been in his family or whatever but anyway, he tried to auction that thing off...and got busted by the feds because the thing was made of /bald eagle feathers/...
I'm not sure if he actually served time, but it was a mess/stress in his life he surely did not need...

I was at Gruhn's one time a few years ago, during SPBGMA, and two guys were trying out older Martins...when a sales person (Calvin Somebody) saw that one of the guys had a shell pick, he told him quickly and quietly (and I quote) "Get that thing out of here..."

Lastly, I don't see the very high quality stuff like I used to...up at Galax this year, the ones I saw being offered for sale were very low quality. They were brittle, some had barnacle scarring on them (which makes weak spots for splits), "warpy", and definitely not worth the $40 asking price...

I am of the school of thought that they will bring out the best that fine mandolin has to offer in regards to tone and volume...but I am also of the school of thought it is mostly the player, not the pick.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Hmmm, I sense some hysteria in peoples worry about the legal ramifications of having tortoise shell. I too delved into tortoise shell on ebay just about the time when they really started cracking down. My plan was to buy old items, make them into picks, then sell them to make a small profit and have a supply of picks. I did manage to make a sell a few and I have what should be a lifetime supply of picks. Of course, I hang on to a pick for a long time. Then the supply started to dry up and stopped and just hung on to what I had. Because of what I was doing I wanted to know what the legal issues were. The hawksbill tutle is listed as an endangered species by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources. It is also listed as endangered throughout its range by the Endangered Species Act of 1973. It is illegal to import or export turtle products under the Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species (CITES), the same one that regulates trade in Brazillian Rosewood. I called up an enforcement officer with the U.S. Wildlife Service. I told him exactly what I was doing and asked what his agency's position was. He told me that it is completely legal to buy and sell items that can be documented to be at least 100 years old. That's often not possible. Of course, antique tortoise shell items that are not 100 years old, or cannot be documented as such are commonly sold in antique stores. That is legal. He said that you can sell antique items intrastate, but not interstate. It also means that you can legally sell a TS pick at a festival. You can't sell them on the internet. He told me that if I tried to sell a guitar pick on the internet and it came to his agency's attention they might send me a polite letter asking me to please cease and desist. He was very nice and not at all concerned with what I was doing. They're trying to stop the ongoing harvest of these animals. There is hardly a war on antique tortoise shell items. You are not going to get busted for possession of a pick. They are not looking for us! Relax. I use only TS picks for mando and guitar because I have them. I think they are the best but they're certainly not the only pick that will get the job done. As someone else said, they are not the magic bullet. The way a pick will make you play better is to use it. A lot.

[grandmainger]

Slippery slope.

I teach wildlife conservation at university level. The issue with hawksbill/TS and related stuff such as ivory, rosewood, rhino horn, tiger parts, shark fins, ibis feathers, etc (list is frightfully long) is linked to poaching as a direct result of popularity and the basic laws of economics.
If demand exists, it will be met by supply eventually. If demand increases, supply will increase, and since existing ("antique") stock is limited, poaching of natural populations will occur.

[Luthier Vandross]

I am building a Loar copy, and a guitar with ivory fingerboards, bridges, pins, end pins, tuner buttons, and heelcaps.

I only buy ivory from one source, each part comes with a certificate, that has the tusk ID the part came from. I'd never have a person carve up an animal so my stuff would be pretty.. never.

Cows are a tasty critter though... can't let them go!

M

[Greenmando]

I watch ebay alot for tortoise items...not to make picks necessarily. #I was bidding on genuine antique late 1800's tortoise comb (mens regular hair comb, not a ladys hair deal). #The auction was stopped a few days later because the ad stated it was "real tortoise". #My point, it appears to be illegal regardless of the provenance of the item
Do not confuse what is not allowed on ebay for illegal items. Ebay has their own rules! For instance ebay does not allow the auction of live animals, there are thousands of live animals auctioned off each day in every state.

[Martin Jonas]

I wonder whether Ebay are aware that many of the old mandolins auctioned through them have tortoiseshell pickguards. Maybe it's better not to wake any sleeping tigers and just not to mention the tortoiseshell in the descriptions.

Martin

[Luthier Vandross]

We should just use the word tortoise in every ad.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

1967 Shelby Cobra, 427 side-oiler, tortoise shell, new paint....


M

[mandoJeremy]

Tortoise shell valve covers? I'll bid!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[fatt-dad]

You can't buy Cuban cigars on ebay either.

f-d

[straight-a]

When someone comes out with a "straight-a" model mandolin for me to endorse, I may start using T's. #Until then, I don't think it would make much difference either way.

[AeroJoe]

Found this in Southeastern Antiquing magazine, March 2004 issue, page 37...

"The secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, the largest museum complex in the world, was sentenced to two years' probation and 100 hours of community service for buying an owning more than 200 art objects made with the feathers of protected species. Lawrence S. Small, 62, pleady guilty to violating the federal Migratory Bird Treaty. He surrendered about 1,000 pieces (worth hundreds of thousands of dollars) to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service following a 2001 criminal probe.
Small bought the collection in February 1998 from a man in Cary, NC paying $400,000. He maintained he had no knowledge that the collection, which he aquired before becoming head of the Smithsonian, contained protected feathers. But the governement probe revealed that Small had personally imported 13 items that included the feathers of birds protected by numerous international laws. These included the scarlet and hyacinth macaws, the harpy eagle and the roseate spoonbill."

[Luthier Vandross]

Ahh, the Roseate Spoonbill.....


..... tastes like Harpy Eagle


M

[AeroJoe]

Luthier Vandross...that was great!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandolooter]

yea, funniest thing I've read on here in a while! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dave Caulkins]

I've been playing with a Tor-tis pick for about a day, as I have missed my old tortoise shell since the day it was lost (which was before I played mandolin). I'm pretty happy with the tonal response and definately the ease of playing. My old tortoise was thinner than the Mondo I'm working with. Even my wife (who plays mando sometimes herself) thinks the pick sounds great on the Rigel. She remains a fan of plastic picks, I fear (standard shape too). I'm trying to justify a synthetic pick costing $20.00 to myself however. If I don't lose it, it was worth it. It is possibly the best pick I have ever used (the thickness gives it a bit of advantage against my possibly rose-colored remembrance of real shell).

If you have $20 to spend on a pick, give it a shot.

Later,

Dave

[Luthier Vandross]

My question is where does it stop? When is a G&W officer going to show up, and take all the tortoise equipped instruments?

Seems like there is a measure of bad judgement used in the law for confiscating endangered shell..


M

[Big Joe]

Somebody gave me an "Ultra Cool Pick" last weekend. I have used it a bit and like it a lot. It is not quite as good as tortoise, but not bad. I am trying to get some in the store and will let you know about pricing and availability as I can. IF you find one somewhere, give it a try. Could be a cool option to the real thing.

[wantaloar]

I have an original Gibson tortoise pick , #(Logo looks like the 50's era) does anyone know what era they were made from and when they discontinued making them from real tortoise. also what something like that would be worth?

[Moose]

AH... the tourtise pick "thing" again,, (YAWN!!..) - kinda' like QVC where they are able(!) to spend 20 minutes discussing the "merits" of $14.00 pinky ring!! - Actually, THAT'S quite a learned "salespitch" ain't it....? - 20++ minutes..!!?? I couldn't do it. Carry on. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Phantoj]

My local acoustic music store sells mock turtle shell picks, ethically harvested from the shell of the mock turtle. (raised by the soup industry)

They're only $1.50 or so. You have to sand the edges yourself. They're really stiff for their thickness and "clack" nicely when dropped on a hard surface. Can't compare 'em to the real deal -- I've never seen the real deal. Some local guy supplies the store.