C Bruno Bowlbacks good quality?

[mysticfaery]

[B]I saw a c bruno mando up for bid and was wondering if they are (or were) a decent instrument maker.

[Jim Garber]

C. Bruno was a distributor. Instruments range from run-of-the-mill factory to decent quality fancy. They were probably made by some other maufacturer in the New York area.

Like all bowlbacks they were subject to the ravages of time and maltreatment, most notably with heavier strings that they were meant to take.

What exactly are you looking for as to bowlbacks. Ebay can be okay for bowlbacks -- believe me, I am one who knows. I got some nice ones and overpaid for some that needed too much work.

If you want to take a chance on one on eBay, go with the quality name brands: for the vintage Americans: Vega, Martin, Washburn (Lyon & healy)

Be aware of the pitfalls. Warped necks or tops should be avoided. Small cracks in the top or the bowl are usual and may not be all that expensive to fix, assuming that the instrument is worth the added expense.

Above all: when you do get one tring it with ultralight strings.

Let us know what you are looking for. A few folks on this board have instruments in good shape to sell.

Jim

[mysticfaery]

I've placed a very low bid on a Bruno I found and the seller says it plays fine-and the photos show it to seem to be in good shape- no cracks or splits-just a bad spot on the front finish which I would hope could be fixed if I win it. and includes a case.if I get out bid on this one I will let you know-I'm looking for a decent low priced bowlback that will last awhile.

[Jim Garber]

Of course, you are probably aware that even with bowlbacks on ebay there are last minute snipers who will up the bids.

What do you consider low-priced? This Vega (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3748347324) looks to be in good shape and would be a nice sounding one. prob go for $300-400, I would guess.

Jim

[mysticfaery]

[B]Oh I know about sniping because I have done that too! Under $300 would be great-I don;t meant o sound cheap but I'm not rolling in dough at the moment.

[Martin Jonas]

Mysticfaery --

I think I've found the Bruno you're referring to on Ebay. It does look in reasonably good shape, as far as one can see on the photos. One encouraging sign is that the set of spare strings that comes with the mandolin are GHS Ultra Lights. This suggests that the previous owner knew which strings are appropriate for a bowlback and alleviates the biggest worry with old bowls, namely that somebody may have destroyed the neck joint by putting bluegrass-gauge strings on.

On the other hand I would say that this was most likely a bottom of the range instrument: quite apart from the low model number (0 1/2), the bowl has only seven (as far as I can see) staves and the tuners and nut look very crude indeed. That's not necessarily a damning sign: many makers made entry-level instruments that sounded just as fine as the more expensive ones from the same workshop, without the garish and dated decorations. However, if Bruno were a distributor rather than a maker, chances are that their cheaper models such as this one were made in a different shop and were more "run of the mill factory" than "decent quality fancy" on the quality range indicated by Jim. As an aside, I think this is the first mandolin of any kind I've seen without a 12th fret marker! It has only markers on the 5th, 7th and 10th.

Very nice case, though. In fact, the case is almost certainly worth more than the current bid, so you might as well stay with it and treat the mandolin as a bonus.
The case doesn't look original: somebody has padded it out with a printed cloth to make the mandolin fit.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

a nice 1906 Style 1 Martin. Needs some work but the starting bid is reasonable. Could be a good one for one of us (not me). keep it in the family!

Jim

16 hours to go on this one and still relatively low. Any takers among us? This one would be worth fixing up as a good playing bowlbackif the price stays low.

Jim

[mysticfaery]

[B]Ahhh you found the Bruno! I figured the same as you on the case-I'm hoping its a decent "beginners model" mando-I'm not expecting the holy grail or anything out of it but it could be a decent instrument. I never caught the spare set of strings clue but you're right-a good tip for me to remember. Hoping I get it for a relatively low bid. I know there's others out there watching,so we'll see.

[Eugene]

Can somebody post a link to the Bruno (don't worry, mysticfaery, I have no intent to trump you). I have stewed on some high-end Bruno mandolins. I really have nothing to offer but speculation regarding the maker of Bruno's house brand, but suspect it to be the same who made Neil Gladd's old American mandolin (I don't recall, his may be a Fischer). The scratchplates are very distinctive. I've wondered if these were Favilla products, but mostly only because Favilla was a prolific NYC shop with a penchant for making instruments for other shops' labels. I have seen a number of low-grade mandolins by Favilla, and none of them had the scratchplate to go halfway 'round the soundhole.

[Martin Jonas]

The one we were talking about is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3747531800&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) and there are other Brunos here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3748601918&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW), here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=308&item=3748036954&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) and here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3747883940&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW), the latter a 12-string.

Martin

[mysticfaery]

[B]any insight is more than welcome here-and i'm not worried about being trumped ;-) ! Post away!

[mysticfaery]

[B]I was looking this one over as well,seeing as the bid on the bruno has went upsoviet mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3747981053&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT)

[Jim Garber]

That soviet one looks pretty poor. I would definitely steer clear. If you want a flatback in your price range, I would say go for a Mid-Missouri mandolin (http://www.midmomandolin.com/). Spend a little more and get something of quality that sounds and plays well. Don't waste your time on cheapo junk on eBay.

Jim

[Eugene]

Indeed, eBay can be a good place to score old bowlbacks for the vintage savvy, but always steer clear of nameless junk. #Mid-MO has also introduced a 13" scale for classical violin-scale minded folks.

I currently am eying this Mayflower (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3748698924&rd=1). #The Mayflower brand has a rather convoluted history. However, I would wager that this one was built by the Vega shop, and--if the seller is grilled and the instrument thus found to be functional--I think it would be worth owning. #I'm not pursuing it; I have enough right now.

[Martin Jonas]

The Mayflower certainly looks Vega-esque. #Indeed, one would hope that this is so, because otherwise there's likely to be a problem with the bridge positioning.

But I agree -- it looks a very nice mandolin in good condition. Nice clown shoe, as well.

Martin

[Eugene]

If you don't know what we're talking about, mysticfaery, Vega mandolins were unique in being built for the bridge to fall behind the cant (i.e. on the tailpiece side of the top's crease).

[Jim Garber]

This Mayflower is practically identical to one that Lowell Levinger is selling here (http://www.vintageinstruments.com/mandolins.html).

Considerably more money for his tho. I can't imagine that anyone would pay $1250 for it.

Jim

http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/inst8/mayflwrful.jpg

[mysticfaery]

[B]The Mayflower is a beauty-and thanks for translating the mando lingo-I've been a guitarist for years,studied classical but a lot of the terms are new to me. Shocked that I'm still in the lead on the Bruno........

[Martin Jonas]

The Mayflower has now more than tripled in price since Eugene's first mention and still has not met its reserve, so I guess it's out of budget for Mysticfaery anyway. While we're on the subject of mando lingo, a "clown shoe" as mentioned in my last past is a name for a style of old mandolin cases, such as the one that comes with the Mayflower. Looking at that photo, the origin of the name is fairly obvious.

Martin

[Eugene]

Lowell Levinger has had that Mayflower at his site for many years. I think he attributes it to the Larson Bros. (I haven't looked for a while). I don't think that attribution is particularly likely.

[Eugene]

Shocked that I'm still in the lead on the Bruno........
mysticfaery, are you 7stringdiva? If so, what kind of a musical thing sports 7 strings? Do you happen to play Russian guitar?

[mysticfaery]

oops! My secret is out! LOL....yep I'm 7 stringdiva-I play 7 string guitar (not that alternative grunge stuff) and own both acoustic and electric-I play classic and progressive rock tho I was trained in classical.

[Eugene]

Given my biases, I was thinking you might play classical Russian guitar, which is a 7-string instrument tuned to a G-major chord.

So far so good on the old Bruno. Good luck and I hope you manage to join our little fold soon.

[Jim Garber]

mysticfaery:
How on earth did you get outbid by $1? That is all right... there'll be plenty more of those down the line. I was originally going to bid on it just for the case.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

There's no way of telling whether she got outbid by $1 or $100 -- Ebay will show the actual amount of the losing bids but only the winning amount of the winning bid, i.e. if the winner bid, say, $150, and the second highest bid (mysticfaery's) was $87, then the winning amount is $87+$1.

But I agree that there'll be plenty around anytime soon, so no point mourning everyone that goes by.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

My point was that she was high bidder at $87 which was also her maximum bid (otherwise the high bidder would have to bid much higher in order to best her bid). If I hit the max on my bid, I usually upbid my high bid to where I want to end up to avoid someone outbidding me by a small increment. She could actually have been outbid if someone bid $87.01 and would have won the auction by #a mere 1¢.

Jim

[mysticfaery]

I got sniped-and that's ok-and yes the guy could've placed a high max bid on it. But I'm relieved in a larger sense as after reading the many posts about disappointments resulting in bowlbacks off ebay,I'd rather lay back,wait,and get one that I can feel confident about. I thinking of saving about $300 so I can get a low priced good quality bowlback from a reputable seller,non ebay.

[Eugene]

Well, I would still argue that eBay is an excellent place to find mandolins...from the reputable sellers there...and assuming you have a bit of shopping savvy with which to fend off the wolves.

[Bob A]

So far on ebay, I've bought two Vega bowlbacks, a Mozzani, a Vega cylinder-back, a Calace, a Vinaccia, and a De Meglio. Some of them have needed work, one (the Vinaccia) extensively. I also decided not to pursue an instrument on ebay, later buying it at a premium from the winner. In retrospect, I should have been more bold.

I emphatically do not feel that I've overpaid for any of them, even including the work that needed to be done. I do deplore the time it takes to get extensive quality restoration on this type of instrument, but that's just the way it is.

I do not feel that it is at all easy to find quality bowlbacks in excellent condition, though most of my purchases did not require extensive work.

However, it is not easy to get a bargain bowlback on ebay. There exists a lot of junk masquerading as musical instruments. Some of us get lucky; I can recall more than a few choice scores by contributors to this Board, even recently. And certainly whoever got Jeff's Vega did well for himself.

As I've experienced it, one must trade time for money. The time can be figured as experience in the subject, as well as the ability to lurk in the background, waiting for the proper confluence of instrument, condition and price. Or else just buckle down and pay whatever is necessary to get the right instrument, figuring that the expense will be amortised over time.

[Jim Garber]

Yes, eBay is always dicey (a gambling term was expurged here), but as one of many here who have acquired great and not so great and pure rubbish on it, it is a source as good as any when it comes to bowlbacks.

My experience is that of the few non-ebay bowlbacks I have seen in varius vintage dealers in the US, few are set up well either and would require some touch by the few luthiers who are capable of doing this work.

Jim

[Gan Ainm]

Since new to board, just putting my 2 lira in on Bruno Bowlbacks since I have one. #As others said, it probably is not really one "brand", since Bruno imported from different sources. #Mine has about 21 ribs and is a nice but not great instrument. I boought it a few years back at the Ameherst Mass string shop, and played it against a vintage Martin Bowlback both going for $300. Both sounded nice, the Martin a little louder, but the Bruno had more of a traditional Italian thing I was looking for. It was in great shape, I had the fretboard shimmed a few years later to improve the action up the neck as my playing got more ambitious. #For "period" and "Itlaian Costume" work I am happy with it. But I have more punch and dynamic range for similar music on my trusty A-2 which I find myself using more unless I really need the "look" or gentle sound.
# # One more thing... I don't really get the eBay thing for instruments (for getting a "personal player" as opposed to collecting.) # I mean, sound is (almost) everything here right? Unless of course you have a solid return policy and are willing to ship back. (I got my A-2 from Elderly years ago and am very happy with it...)
Peace

[Jim Garber]

C. Bruno was a distributor. Instruments range from run-of-the-mill factory to decent quality fancy. They were probably made by some other maufacturer in the New York area.
According to Lawrence Libin, Bruno's mandolins were made possibly by at least two manufacturers: Nicola Turturro who we discussed in anotehr thread as not being related to the Calaces and Angelo Mannello of the Bronx.

Jim

[Eugene]

Welcome, Colin. Who did the work on your Bruno?

[Jim Garber]

I don't really get the eBay thing for instruments (for getting a "personal player" as opposed to collecting.)
Getting instruments on eBay of course is a #### shoot. On one hand I have lots of dross in search for the ultimate playing instrument. On the other hand I got my Lyon & Healy on eBay which is one of the best-sounding mandolins I have ever owned and one of the two I continually turn to these days.

Jim

[Gan Ainm]

Spent the weekend working HARD in Williamsburg playing Italian folk music! But back to Eugene...Steve Parks did the work on the Bruno. (http://www.steveparksmusic.com/index.html) He is way out in the mountains of Western VA, I have one of his 'Zouks, an elegant and great sounding flat-top. #He put a lot of thought and care into gently shimming up the fingerboard to "track" the strings better up the neck. He also reset the neck on an old English (GH&S) Banjolin that I lugged home in a pack from a Bath (UK) Junk shop a zillion years ago, that I can now use for a sound varietal playing Klezmer.
Gives a bit of a not-inappropriate vaudville sound, especially playing chords.
Re the Ebay thing, yeah I guess if you are willing to gamble over time and have a way to unload "dross", I'm sure you eventually hit paydirt.

[Eugene]

Well, I've scored much more often than I've been burned on eBay. The only time something I've procured there wasn't what I'd expected was when I violated my own rules and bought from a friendly but musically ignorant seller who couldn't answer my questions. I would not recommend the venue to an inexperienced shopper, but I wouldn't hesitate to send vintage-savvy shoppers with experience into the wilds of eBay.

[Jim Garber]

Spent the weekend working HARD in Williamsburg playing Italian folk music!
Interesting... what is the relationship between Italian music and Williamsburg? Were these Italian colonial-era tunes?

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I fully agree with Eugene. #Using Ebay for bowlbacks is completely different from using it for other mandolins. #For flat/carved mandolins, there is a relatviley well-established used market value. #You may get it a bit cheaper on Ebay or you may pay a premium for the confidence of buying from a shop where you have the chance to try it, but on the whole you're moving in the same general area. #It's not like that for bowls. #Few music shops stock them or know anything about them. #Those that do know about them price decent vintage bowlbacks similar to comparable quality flat/carved ones. #However, on Ebay you can get the same mandolin for a fraction of the price if you're willing to take the risk. #We're talking of the difference between $200 and $1000, not between $800 and $1000. #In addition, the choice is much larger, because there are so few bowls in the shops.

Martin

[Bob A]

My biggest problem with ebay tends to come from going head-to-head with buyers who know quality. This has caused me a couple of expensive excursions, but fortunately the instruments were actually worth the money. I think this was luck more than skill on my part; it's easy to get enthusiastic and end up holding a case full of restoration fodder.

I've tried to modify my impulsive behaviors, because I've noted time and again that good stuff does in fact turn up with some regularity, so if I can hold the line at a reasonable price, the instrument I want will come around again. (Exception: I haven't seen another Pettine Special since I scored mine a year or more ago).

I'm impressed to hear of a bowlback-savvy luthier in the Va mountains. I assume the work is of quality; how's the turnaround time?

[Gan Ainm]

To Reply to 2 different questions....the Italian Music in Williamsburg was a function of an Italian theme wine festival not "CW" (Colonial Williamsburg).
Steve Parks who did the work on my bowl back actually had to take some research time, discussion with other luthiers etc before jumping on my Bruno (figuratively....)
As a result he had it for a few months but I wasn't in much of a hurry, with the A2 to play. What I don't know is if he has an interest in on-going work on such like or if it was just an interesting project for a freind who bought one of his "zouks. #But if you drop him an email at his web site I'm sure he will be glad to chat. As I said if you are looking for a short or long neck Octave/'zouk or a Tenor guitar at a good price, his stuff is really nice. Fine all around string band/blues/cajun picker also.

One day I 'd love to have one of those Carlo Aonzo models...
(Italian maker)then I'm sure I would sound just like him... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ciao
Colin

[Jim Garber]

One day I 'd love to have one of those Carlo Aonzo models...
(Italian maker)then I'm sure I would sound just like him... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That maker is Gabriele Pandini of Ferrara. I got mine from Carlo. It was not cheap but wonderful sweet tone and a joy to play. It is mine that is pictured on the Eye Candy page BTW.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Going thru some of my old catalogs. Here is a quartet of mandolins from the 1888 C. Bruno catalog. I like the Vinaccia style one with the friction pegs.

Jim

[Eugene]

Weird! That old-fashioned one is almost identical to the ilk that is almost universally attributed to Mirecourt, ca. 1835-1880. I suspect it was imported from there. ...And its bridge is positioned in the center of the scratchplate, way north than would be implied by the position of the 12th fret!

Equally weird, styles no. 64 and no. 32 seem to be the only ones to feature a canted top (unless there's a very slight one in no. 1).

[Martin Jonas]

Alternatively, the draughtsman wasn't very good: No. 32 is distinctly wonky and I don't think he was quite up to the job of drawing them in perspective.

Martin

[Gan Ainm]

Fun to see those old pictures. My Bruno has an intersting tuning arrangement. There is a metal plate over the top of the peg head, and the the end of the pegs are turned with little wheels about the size of a dime, but thicker. They are made out of some early synthetic I think. # The whole thing seems to work fine, holding up well. I have not spent much effort to date the thing (dinner and a movie? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #)
but I would be curious if anyone has seen the like.
Colin

[Jim Garber]

Colin:
Do you have any pics of these tuners you could post here?

Jim