Advice Concerning Mandolin Prices-Discounts

[RBMB]

I'm looking at buying a new mandolin and have done some comparisons of MAP pricing on-line (minimum advertised price), but I really need some guidance on how the mandolins are actually priced. For instance, I know Martin guitars frequently sell at around 40-50% discount, yet MAP is 20%. Similarly, while Weber mandolins are supposedly discounted 10% they seem to sell for very low prices used, which indicates to me that they are/were sold new at a larger discount. In contrast, quite a few boutique guitar makers hold their dealers to within 10% of suggested price. If you have any general comments concerning your experiences with the following brands, please let me know. Thanks!


Highest Level of Interest

* Breedlove - MAP seems to be 25% discount
* Collings - MAP seems to be 10% discount
* New MAD (carbon fiber) - very little information available, but I am thinking of a NEW Mad A so that I can take the mando with me wherever and whenever I go


Also Considering

* Big Muddy - MAP seems to be 20% discount
* Eastman - MAP seems to be 20% discount
* Kentucky - MAP seems to be 25% discount (but some websites had up to 35%)
* Gibson - MAP must be 10% discount
* Loar - MAP seems to be 25% discount
* Phoenix - MAP seems to be 20% discount
* Weber - seems to be about 10% discount to start

[Big Joe]

There is a lot more than just the selling price to consider. What will you have to do to the mandolin once you get it? Will you have to have it set up? Most need it and there are not that many places that know how to really set an instrument up for optimal playability and tone. It is a LOT more than just string height. If you get a 25% discount on a 2000.00 instrument but have to spend another 100-300 to get it playing just like you want you really have not saved that much.

Unless there is a substantial problem no dealer is going to sell their product at 50% off because that is less than what they have in it. Some brands have a different discount program to the dealer and they can't discount much or at all. If you are getting new Martins for 1/2 off then the dealer is probably going out of business because he is loosing money on that sale. That is not good for you or him. If they are not there to take care of you after the sale then you have not gained anything.

The first step is to find what you like in a mandolin and don't worry about the discount or the brand. Find what "floats your boat". Then try to find a dealer to help you get the best deal you can, and that is not just price. It usually costs more to buy from high volume internet retailers. They may save you a few bucks on the front, but it will cost you more on the backend and if you are not sure what you really want, or what you want the instrument to do then you are going to be disappointed.

Consider other factors as well. What if you want to upgrade? Will you loose your investment or will it likely hold a good share of its value? Many of the pac rim models don't maintain much value in the secondary market. True, they don't cost a lot, but the percentage of loss can easily erode any savings on the front end. Don't buy just because it is cheap. Cheap and inexpensive are not the same thing.

Your best way to a great value is to work with a dealer who is concerned about you getting a fair deal on the front end, during your ownership, and on the back end. Do they have an upgrade policy? Do they know how to work on your instrument? Do they act as if they care about your business? One of the things I've learned over the years is that many of the "big boys" have one purpose in mind. Sell product. They get it in a box, put it in a warehouse, sell it, then ship it out in the same box. No one has even looked at the instrument and when you get it if it does not work like you wish you can send it back... at your expense... and then your savings is long gone. Shop local first, but be informed. Hang around shops you think may be able to help you and see how they treat other customers and if they seem to know anything about the instrument you want to have or how it is played.

In all, a purchase of an instrument is a very personal thing and it is best to have some guidance through the project. Just finding a brand on the net and giving them your card number does not guarantee a good deal. It only guarantees a cheap price. That can be a costly experience.

[Ted Eschliman]

Terrific post, Joe. Words to the wise.

[Marcus CA]

You might also learn how to read the birthyear from the serial numbers of the mandos that you're interested in. There are still some new 2008 instruments hanging in stores, so if you find one that you like, the store may be willing to accept a lower offer in order to move that piece. Even if the store rejects your offer and doesn't counter it, you won't be paying any more than you would have. I wouldn't advise making a ridiculously low offer, though, if you're dealing with a store that you would like to do repeat business with.

[RBMB]

Just to be real clear, I know what I'm looking for in a mandolin and will be going to a store to look at mandolins soon. I just need some help with "street" price so that I know what I'm dealing with. It seems that MAD and Collings are sold at around list price, maybe 10% discount. However, I'm not familiar with Breedlove and Eastman pricing, and wonder if they are sold at discount like Martin (33%-40% off list, with specials sometimes running around 50% off list). Any advice on that point would really be appreciated, and other advice would not be very useful to me.

[RBMB]

It certainly also would be helpful to have any comments on "street" price for Gibson, Phoenix and Weber, since they also make mandolins that meet my criteria.

[GRW3]

Forget the Martin pricing meme. Guitars and mandolins don't mix pricewise. Martin probably builds more guitars in a year than mandolins built in a decade (in the same quality range). They are also sold in a lot broader retail market dominated by companies that demand large margins to be able to advertise large discounts. ("So low we can't print it...")

Would you really be happy in the following situation?
- You found a 'Gibberings' F5 that retailed at $10K that made your heart melt when you played it
- The dealer will only give you 15% off
- You buy an 'identical' model online for 20% off but, as such things go, it's just not the same.
- You saved $500 but the love of your mandolin life is still hanging on a hook in a store.

Somebody will always make a better deal than me. I know this and I concentrate on the intersection of the budget and the sound.

[RBMB]

George,

You're really missing the point. I'm not buying a $10,000 mandolin from a small maker as I'm on a budget. I'm also not buying a mandolin on-line because I want to try the specific mandolin I'm going to be playing and I think that will help me buy the best mandolin for my needs within my budget.

Because of my budget, I'm looking at products that are commonly available and just want to know what street price is for them so that I can compare mandolins that are within my price range. The only way to tell what is in my price range is to learn the street price because the list prices on the tags at most stores are frequently way off the street price.

I certainly would pay a 5-10% more if the store owner is going to provide a good set-up and has a good reputation. If a store is going to try to charge me 25% more than street I really shouldn't be dealing with them and would like some help gauging what to expect.

M

[mandroid]

FWIW, on your list , I'd say the Carbon Fiber Mix is the one that I can offer as being consistent,
because it is a repeatable manufacturing process of a consistent manufactured material.
That is one that I'd have no concern buying without trying first , [which I did]
as not being made of natural materials, they will sound each like the other .

They seem to hold their value , but I only have the classifieds and what they resell for used,
versus what Peter charges for them from his website price .
at last check , new $3600, used $3k. Roughly, double that for the F style.

I got mine used , I do like it. , then scored a used Fiberglass Eastman Case for it .
It has D rings, 3, for a back pack Carry .

If I were to order one new, I'd get the top and peg head face painted black,
visually simplify the front.

but I got mine 3rd hand and as is.. was OK, though, as I have said elsewhere,
it needed a tuner swap..


:popcorn: Shop, for gear, or Play Music.

[Tom C]

quote : The only way to tell what is in my price range is to learn the street price because the list prices on the tags at most stores are frequently way off the street price.


Forget about List Price, Street price(whatever that means),MAP...etc Just call or email and ask the selling price. I do not understand what is so difficult unless I am missing something

[RBMB]

I really appreciate the New Mad comment. I can't wait to try one.

Acoustic guitar magazine posts "street" price for all the products they review. Frequently stores don't offer the street price unless you ask and some get offended when you ask. Hence, it would be really nice get some other views from folks that are helpful. For instance, do Breedlove and Eastman mando get steeply discounted or are they normally sold near MAP?

As mom used to say, "If you don't have anything positive to say, don't say anything at all."

[mandroid]

The nature of Importing goods , of course, Math and Economics fans, ... ;)

Labor is a cost, if you drive that down by exporting the actual work ,
then A layer of profit margin is available to just receive and ship the cartons of product, to the dealers , who add another % on to that.

If you are buying from a domestic producer , they most likely
sell direct to the dealer , and one layer of markup is eliminated,
Receiving the import and re shipping.

the Carbon footprint is increased getting stuff across the Ocean , in that Container ship, and all the trucks that handle them.
so if you are calculating %, do consider what portion of the price is devoted to something other than building it and setting it up at the dealer..

:whistling:

[allenhopkins]

Google is your friend. Search on the make and model mandolin, and see what prices you find. Discount retailers, private CraigsList sales, eBay auctions, all are sources of current market prices. Private sales and auctions, of course, give you prices for used instruments only, and you may not be considering a used instrument.

Don't worry about "offending" the dealer by asking for a discounted price. A good dealer will be upfront about his/her limits in terms of discounts. There's a crude rule of thumb that the manufacturer's list price is around twice the dealer cost. I'm sure this varies among different manufacturers, and some do set limits on what they allow their authorized dealers to discount from list. Look at a high-volume dealer like Musician's Friend; they usually offer about the largest discounts, since they turn over a huge inventory and don't do any shop work on the instruments they sell. You may want shop set-up, which reduces the dealer's ability to discount.

You can get a real feel for current discounting practice by going to a manufacturer's website, checking the list price, then pulling up a bunch of dealer websites and seeing what's being charged for that make and model. And remember, we're in a recession, which can create a bit of a buyer's market, and more competitive pricing.

Later: taking a simple example, the Eastman 505 mandolin, A-model f-hole from Eastman's baseline "500" series. Almost every dealer states, "List price $750, sale price $600." That's a discount of $150 or 20% off list. There are some "off-axis data points": a dealer called Westwood Guitars advertises at $995 (!), Matt Umanov in NY City asks $700, Bernunzio here in Rochester has one that came without label or certificate -- probably a result of John B's cozy relationship with Eastman -- for $450. But mostly, you get a uniform dealer price. Not too hard to get a feel for discounting practices for different brands and models.

[Jim Garber]

I also don't quite understand what the problem is. If you are going to a brick and mortar store with cash in hand (or the intent to buy at some time in the future), the best stores will give you an idea of what is in your range. You may want to play something a little higher in price to compare what you are missing by going a little higher. the asking price is what is usually on the tag or what your salesperson will tell you. When you are ready to buy, most good dealers will not be insulted if you want to bargain reasonably. They may also throw in some picks, strap or whatever. The best stores I have been in want you to be satisfied and, for new instruments, most will be competitive.

Also bear in mind that there are only a handful of stores around the country that actually have a decent selection of mandolins.

My suggestion is to get out there and go shopping and see what your experience is. you can sit here forever arguing with us about street price vs. list price but it really means nothing. The price you pay is the price you pay and the satisfaction you get from a positive sale experience. Besides, you can get playing your new treasure sooner.

[RBMB]

It seems to me that if guitars and mandolins were priced in a more straight forward manner we could all get fairer pricing. I can go into any Collings dealer and know what to expect since they are straightforward with their pricing. I have no idea what other mandolin prices should be.

I may have a jilted view, but I live near a music store that has price tags on products that are very high and then just seems to randomly price things at the register. They runs a 50% off day once a year and 33% off another day, which to me makes me wonder "off of what?" How can they make money at 50% off? It seems to me when you have lots of instruments on the market with artificially high prices and then pretend discounting, the consumer gets ripped off.

Also note that I am purchasing in an environment where large manufacturers are being accused of
price fixing. See http://nashville.bizjournals.com/nashville/stories/2010/01/25/daily6.html

As a mandolin purchaser, I can't imagine why you would just take a salesperson's word as to what he/she thinks is a fair price. Please note that the gentleman who complained first owns a guitar store. While he probably really has a passion for mandolins, and he has a very good point that price should not be the only factor in purchasing, he certainly has more knowledge than in any transaction. He absolutely should get a fair price so he can run his store and feed his family, but then so should we.

[mandroid]

Un sold inventory can be viewed as tied up capital , If the commodity cost half of what retail sale price is , Keystone as its known , and there is overhead to pay , Payroll Insurance Rent, Taxes on that inventory , income taxes for the business Due, selling off unsold inventory at cost is just something that one may choose to do.


So, perhaps in an economy that is shedding jobs , and the buyers with cash burning a hole
in their pocket are getting to be a bit more sparse, you may be in a better position..

[Ron Hale]

First of all, Big Joe was giving you some sage advice, not complaining. You missed it completely. You have been given positive advice all throughout this thread, yet you haven't seen it. I think your one-track mind has gotten in the way of taking in all the good advice you have gotten here. You keep coming back with the same drivel. Some of the information you are asking about here is likely privileged information ...discount percentages, dealer costs, etc. Are you going to make the salesman an offer on the mandolin, or ask him how much he makes? Perhaps now would be a good time to settle down, and actually read the posts from those who are trying to help you, and pay attention to what they are telling you.

[JeffD]

I wonder (I don't really know) if we are talking across a cultural difference. I have never purchased a guitar from a store, and I don't play guitar. I do know there are a heck of a lot of guitar stores with a heck of a lot of guitars in them.

Not so with mandolins. The selling / buying culture may just be different. I am not familiar with the term "street price" as applied to mandolins. Shows you what I know I have only heard that phrase used for illegal substances.

[Mike Bunting]

Shows you what I know I have only heard that phrase used for illegal substances.

And how are they in your neck of the woods! :)

[swampstomper]

Big Joe's post reads like it could have been written by local dealers I know. The key point is that they want a relationship with you and your instrument(s!!) for "life". Of course they need to make money on the sale but they want you back for trades, upgrades, expanding your stable etc. My experience is the dealer price, including the setup work they do and their in-shop guarantee for the early part of the instrument's life, and their support if you need warranty work, is **well** worth the price differential. And most dealers do have seasonal sales or promotional events -- these are up-front discounts and nothing is shady about it. I really encourage you to find a dealer you can do business with and enjoy visiting over the years. The ones I know let me know when "goodies" I might be interested in are available. No pressure, just service.

[T.J.]

I remember my first completely new guitar purchase. I hadn't meant to buy it, but it kept dragging me back to the store.

Since I had always bought used instruments there, and since I had always talked frankly with them about trading in other instruments and about what would be a fair trade in price, including what price they could turn it around for, we had built up an open relationship about pricing and costs. Any price offers were business, and not personal.

When I finally talked to the one guy I had always dealt with about that special new guitar, he said, "Let's see what our cost is, and how much handling we put into that thing." He pulled out the dealer catalog, and we looked at the wholesale pricing, figured out what they had paid in shipping, and figured out a fair percentage on top of that. He was working on commission, and by not quibbling about his being able to make money, I made a friend for life in terms of future deals.

What's the lesson here?

I never went into a store and started to immediately talk down the price.

I established a relationship with the store. I spent money on things there, even though I could have done mail order on quite a few things.

I didn't just kick tires on instruments, just to get prices.

Although I could sometimes have sold an instrument privately and made more money, I sometimes just wanted to make some space, and so I didn't mind getting a bit less. Being willing to take the value in trade meant that I'd get more for my trade-in, and they'd get something out of the deal too. It was a RELATIONSHIP, not one of us just trying to win and beat the other.

----

By all means, do research, but if anyone were definitely against building a relationship, then why will a retailer necessarily want that person as a repeat customer? The best match for someone who is just interested in the bottom line, and no longstanding relationship, is a retailer who is just after the bottom line, and not willing to do the things which will build a longstanding relationship.

I'm happy to be able to walk into all the music stores around where I live, and to know all the salespeople in my areas of interest. I don't have to worry about whether they're trying to cheat me. I get attracted to instruments because of the way they sound, not because of the price. If it's too expensive, then I don't get it, but I don't buy a model based on price. I buy one particular instrument because of its sound.

Relationship or cut-throat, we can all choose how we prefer to live, and what kinds of folks we want to have in our lives.

Good luck, whatever buying paradigm you live by!

[RBMB]

I have to travel one-two hours to see the nearest decent mandolin store and have no way of developing a relationship with them over one purchase. The only mandolin players I know of in my area have old Gibsons. I started this thread trying to get some advice from folks about their mandolin purchases and what is a typical price for the various mandolin brands so that I can figure out if I'm getting a fair deal when I go to a dealers and don't have to shop at a bunch of stores before determining which ones are fair. If I knew some mandolin players who have bought new mandolins, then I could get that advice locally. Clearly anyone who would have wanted to post that advice has been long scared away. What is really fascinating about the thread is how upset folks can get by asking what the fair prices are. I'm really surprised by the fact that focus feel so strongly about be willing to trust a stranger over the price of something so expensive. There is one group that seems to be that comparison pricing of mandolins is a sin and I wonder if the folks who express that view are upset by the concept of shopping for an instrument or just don't do research on any purchases. One notable group of threads feels so strongly that they say that they don't even understand what the pricing concepts are, but they feel so strongly that you shouldn't ask about the actual prices folks are paying that they have to pipe and tell how offensive they find the concept. Others are lucky enough to have someone like Big Joe that they can trust and build a relationship nearby. Interestingly, there is a second group of folks who recommend highly buying used instruments on-line since the prices are so good and are willing to forgo the opportunity to compare mandolins side-by-side to save money. That groups thoughts seems to be completely at odds with the other group. That group has provided some useful advice and it is certainly worth considering, so thank you. A third group has provided some very useful advice concerning mandolins they like or how to buy them, and I particularly want to thank those folks.

[JeffD]

so that I can figure out if I'm getting a fair deal when I go to a dealers and don't have to shop at a bunch of stores before determining which ones are fair. .

This is where the culture thing comes in. There are so few mandolin players out there, the shops that sell a significant variety of mandolins are going to go out of their way to be fair and to keep customers satisfied. I would bet that a bad deal is rare.

Perhaps there are so many folks buying guitars, for what ever reason, that an unscrupulous shop could make a living just on walk-in newbies, and not care if the person ever came back. I know this is true with many car dealers in most large towns. Hey, someone will walk in the door after you leave...


Anyway, I would not purchase a mandolin from someone with whom I had the slightest question as to whether I would be treated fairly. Not knowing answers the question for me.

[allenhopkins]

I have to travel one-two hours to see the nearest decent mandolin store and have no way of developing a relationship with them over one purchase.
But you'll need strings, picks, adjustment and repair in the future. Dealers know it's not "one purchase." Heck, you can "develop a relationship" by phone or internet with a specialized dealer like the Mandolin Store.
I started this thread trying to get some advice from folks about their mandolin purchases and what is a typical price for the various mandolin brands so that I can figure out if I'm getting a fair deal when I go to a dealers and don't have to shop at a bunch of stores before determining which ones are fair.
I think a bit of your problem is your worry about "fair." Individual dealers set individual prices; they have "sales" and "special offers" when it makes economic sense for them to do so -- for example, during a recession. As I think I demonstrated by Googling the Eastman 505, most dealer prices fall within a common range, which reflects generally accepted discounts. But there isn't a single "fair" price. The market sets prices, and "fair" for you is what you're willing to pay.
Clearly anyone who would have wanted to post that advice has been long scared away. What is really fascinating about the thread is how upset folks can get by asking what the fair prices are.
I don't see anyone being "scared." I do sense some frustration about your insistence that there's one universally valid "fair" price for a particular instrument, rather than a variety of prices, generally within a limited range, set by individual sellers.
I'm really surprised by the fact that focus (I guess you mean "folks") feel so strongly about be willing to trust a stranger over the price of something so expensive. There is one group that seems to be that comparison pricing of mandolins is a sin and I wonder if the folks who express that view are upset by the concept of shopping for an instrument or just don't do research on any purchases.
Comparison pricing of mandolins is not a "sin," and I don't read any post above that says it is. That's why I advocated using the internet to get a feel for normal discounts and price ranges. What you should realize -- maybe you do -- is that price isn't all. A good set-up, customer support, and ability to get repairs, adjustments, and trade-up possibilities, are worth something too. Normally, you get the lowest initial price from the retailers who spend the least time and effort on the sale: no set-up, shop work, customer support time, etc.
One notable group of threads feels so strongly that they say that they don't even understand what the pricing concepts are, but they feel so strongly that you shouldn't ask about the actual prices folks are paying that they have to pipe and tell how offensive they find the concept.
I think you're mis-reading this a bit. Most of us are aware that some manufacturers limit their dealers' discretion to discount from "list" prices. What we find a little difficult to deal with, is the idea that there's a "street price" for a given make or model of mandolin. Any of us can do the simple research to find what the current range of dealer discounts is; it takes a Google search and/or a few phone calls. But the "street price," by definition, is set by averaging a multitude of individual transactions. I can easily find what Dealer X is charging for a Shmergel F-8 (made-up name). What I can't determine as easily is whether he sold one to his brother-in-law for $Y less than his advertised price, or what kind of trade-in he allows, or dozens of other factors. And volume is a variable as well. You're not dealing with thousands of Fender Strats being sold every year; maybe a few hundred of any given make or model of mandolin. So accumulating "street price" data is a lot more difficult.
Others are lucky enough to have someone like Big Joe that they can trust and build a relationship nearby. Interestingly, there is a second group of folks who recommend highly buying used instruments on-line since the prices are so good and are willing to forgo the opportunity to compare mandolins side-by-side to save money. That groups thoughts seems to be completely at odds with the other group. That group has provided some useful advice and it is certainly worth considering, so thank you. A third group has provided some very useful advice concerning mandolins they like or how to buy them, and I particularly want to thank those folks.
I'd never recommend buying before trying, unless I had no alternative for getting a particular instrument, or I was very familiar with the make and model and had complete trust in the seller. You're far from that situation.


Worrying about what's a "fair price" is just chasing a will-o-the-wisp. If you just want the lowest price, you have a wealth of research resources. If you have a well-stocked mandolin store an hour or two away, devote a day to going there and playing everything in your price range. Talk to the dealer about discounts; see if you can get a "deal." Alternatively, decide that the Shmergel F-8 is the mandolin you like the best (after playing it), then start contacting Shmergel dealers and see what prices you find. Remember that price ain't everything; when you buy a car, don't you take dealer service and support into consideration?

And one more note on price and "ongoing dealer relationships": I get a better discount at my local dealers than someone walking in off the street, 'cause they know I'll be back for strings, a case, repairs, adjustments, etc. You'd be amazed how many people drive well over "an hour or two" to go to a dealer with whom they've built up a good relationship. I sense a bit of a hang-up on price uber alles -- take our word(s) for it, there's more involved than just what you pay initially.

[swampstomper]

Thanks Alan for such a patient response. I just wanted to second the idea that someone at a distance could strike up a good relation with Mandolin Store, or Big Joe, or Elderly, or Jeff Cowherd, just to list ones I would trust.

As a caution, in the past (mid 1970's) I dealt by distance with two of the best-known vintage dealers (and I mean really well-known, still in business) and had sour to very sour experiences where I felt the only relation they wanted with me was to gouge me for every small favour. No I will not mention names. Maybe because I was young and naive? Or they were less established and predatory? In those days of no internet (try gBase also, in addition to what Alan mentioned) and much lower volume all we in the sticks had to go on was a few classifieds in Bluegrass Unlimited. Now with much easier access to info (including the Café) it should be a lot easier to see if you want to build a relation with a particular dealer.

So to the OP, I don't mean to trust a total stranger.

[Greg H.]

Others are lucky enough to have someone like Big Joe that they can trust and build a relationship nearby. Interestingly, there is a second group of folks who recommend highly buying used instruments on-line since the prices are so good and are willing to forgo the opportunity to compare mandolins side-by-side to save money. That groups thoughts seems to be completely at odds with the other group.

Actually (as I seem to be in that other catagory) the difference is somewhat less than it seems. For many of us, while we're ordering an instrument from across the country (world) the dealer from whom we're buying has a known reputation (for providing a good setup/giving REAL opinions over the phone etc.) Also, all of the dealers who are associated with the cafe are quite willing to give you a trial period of a day or two to be sure that what you got is what you wanted. Yes, you do have to pay for shipping it back if it's not what you wanted but, as has been mentioned a number of times already, really good mandolins are not so easily found (compared to guitars). Also, if you're buying online, then having a really good local luthier/setup/repair is very desireable (the dealer may do an excellent setup, but weather (i.e. humidity or lack thereof), fret wear, accidents etc. happen. . .).

[Folkmusician.com]

I have a real simple answer to this....
Street price, is MAP. Map is the median price.

The longer version..

Yes you can find instruments sold below MAP (especially online), and above MAP (more common in local shops). There are many exceptions, but MAP holds as an average street price.

Again, this does not always apply, but MAP is about the lowest an "average" shop can sell instruments for and remain profitable. In many cases, MAP is not enough for a dealer. It depends on the level of service, and what the particular instruments might need as far as setup, warranty policies (many require the dealer to handle warranty claims). Some areas have higher costs of doing business, such as rent, insurance and taxes. This will vary greatly. The level of employees staffed. Are they paying minimum wage with virtually no commission, or are they paying well? With so many variables, we have to average. There is a lot of artificial inflation of retail with corresponding higher discounts in the MAP price. In these cases, MAP still comes out as an average.

You can hunt down recent studies on retail in general, and there are also Music Industry specific studies. Based on my own observations and more so, industry statistics (I consider this to be fact), everything points to MAP being the norm.

MAP = "Average" Street Price.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

Median and average are not equivalent terms. Median means the middle value between the lowest and highest in a set. Average is used to mean the mean value.

[John Kasley]

This is somewhat of a tongue in cheek comment...my experience in the corporate world was that decision makers who did not want to make decision for various reasons would almost always ask for more data.

So maybe we need not only the median and mean of a particular make and model of mandolin, but also the mode, standard deviation and a histogram of prices across all dealers who sell that instrument. Too bad there isn't a mandolin equivalent to the Kelly Blue Book for autos.

[EdSherry]

"MAP" is "Minimum Advertised Price" -- the lowest price that dealers are allowed (by the manufacturer) to advertise the item at. Not all manufacturers use the concept of MAP. In particular, it's a concept that (in my experience) simply doesn't apply to most small builders.

Many dealers (e.g., Elderly) are willing to sell for less (often significantly less) than MAP -- hence the "call for price" listings in their catalogues and on their website.

I don't know of any basis for the empirical claim that MAP is "average" street price (whether mean or median).

It may well be the case (as Folkmusician says) that manufacturers set MAP at a level that they believe that an "average" dealer can afford to sell the product at MAP and still make an acceptable level of profit. But I've never seen any empirical support for that proposition, and I personally would tend to doubt it. A lot of the economics depends on turnover (how quickly the dealer can sell the item and thus recoup his investment in inventory).

I agree that many small shops ask for significantly more than MAP. They tend to start with list price and negotiate from there, never mentioning to the (often unsuspecting) customer that there is anything like MAP. Simply knowing what the MAP is is useful in such situations. But if you've gotten that far, it makes even more sense to find out what other dealers are really willing to sell it for, which is often less than MAP. Once armed with that information, you are in a better position to negotiate.

I fully agree that, if you find a good local (or even not-so-local) dealer who you trust to do a good setup job and to stand behind the product, that it's worth steering your business their way, rather than simply going with the lowest possible price from some "box it and ship it" mail-order place.

[Folkmusician.com]

I wasn't meaning to interchange them. I meant that we have people buying instruments at up to 50% off, and some paying retail. Map is typically 25% off. I thought that it applied, but maybe not. :)

[mrmando]

I'm pretty active in the catch-and-release game these days, and always have some instruments for sale. A while back I got one of those "what is your best price" emails on an instrument I had recently listed. Well, I felt that I needed to make some money quickly (I forget why), and inferred from the guy's emails that he really wanted the instrument but really couldn't afford the asking price. So I shaved the price, got his payment, sent the instrument and felt good about making the guy happy even if I made a little less money than I expected.

That feeling lasted a week or so ... until the same guy emailed back and asked for my best price on another instrument. I realized that instead of helping out a hardship case, I had given in to a chiseler. I let him know I wasn't going to offer him any more discounts.

If your approach as a buyer is one-and-done, and you frankly don't care whether you do business with the seller again, then go ahead and reach for the bottom of that barrel. If you want a relationship with the seller, then you're better off approaching the transaction in good faith.

[allenhopkins]

Too bad there isn't a mandolin equivalent to the Kelly Blue Book for autos.

Gruhn's Guide (http://www.elderly.com/books/items/312-6.htm) is the closest thing, I guess.

[EdSherry]

Gruhn's Guide helps you identify what you're looking at. It doesn't have any information on prices, which is what the Kelley Blue Book provides. And it's of little use for current production instruments.

[EarlG]

Some on this thread mentioned that the op might be used to a different culture buying guitars compared to mandolins. I think that is the case.

It's not a real good thing to squeeze a local shop (and by local I also mean the small shop cafe sponsors) too much, if you are even lucky enough to have one where you can see mandolins. Just talk to them about their best price and if you play a nice mandolin at the shop, buy it.

If you are dead set on price only order from musicians friend :(.

[jim simpson]

A while back I bought a used Collings from Mandolin Bros. At the time I saw one listed on Ebay for less but decided to buy from Mandolin Bros. as I believed there was value added to my purchase. I had the option to send it back if not to my satisfaction. I knew right away that I wanted to keep it but Mandolin Bros. still contacted me with a follow-up to make sure that I knew I still was in my window to return it. They included a new set of strings at no charge which was also a nice touch. There certainly is more to a purchase than just the purchase price.

[dan in va]

I've lived out some of these issues and have come full circle. My enjoyment of music increased after learning to play the instrument instead of the price tag...which is one reason for removing the tag, as per Minnie Pearl.

Life has shown me the value of having good music stores, so I'm actually glad to pay a little more for service and being able to try out instruments, and having real friends, instead of looking at stuff online. These are tough times, and it's become a reality that big block stores put little guys out of business.

Actually it's ALL about relationship. My favorite store gives discounts to customers who have bought instruments, amps and such, without even having to ask. It's amazing how flexible a store manager can be when he knows you've bonded with a box and the pickin' fund is low.

Nickel and diming, beating the store down really kills relationships and later deals. Just listen to how the public treats the good guys in a store sometimes...and then what's said after the customer leaves. And they really do remember.

Some 20 years ago, a guy and his GF started my favorite store on her credit card. He is a fine guitarist and would never talk another store down if he wanted one of their instruments....either it was worth it or not. He's been one of the VP's at Fender for a number of years now.

So I remember these things now when I'm dealing. If I bond with the thing and can afford it, the sting of the cost goes away and nobody seems to care about how much a really good box costs when they play it and smile.

I'm learning how a sharp pencil can keep me from getting more than my money's worth. I just ask "What can you do for me?" and then I can say "Here's what I can do." And we can really deal in good faith...but I had to earn it.

I hope this deal becomes more than just another deal for you.

....dan

"Truth is relative. In fact, he's my brother."