Pickup system - Shure mini dynamic mic

[bonesatr]

First time post here, but I think it may be helpful to some. I'm not sure if anyone has used this before..
Most everyone can agree microphones sound better than pickups on mandolins. And most can agree condensers are more prone to feedback than dynamic mics when used in loud settings. Or at least more tricky to use. Ive been wanting to attach a mic for a long time, but have been getting by on various transducers, hating the sound quality. I was reading the thread about the K&K bullet mics and was worried about feedback issues, so i looked into mini dynamic mics, and found a lot of different aerobic headsets. I found a Shure that seemed reasonable and I actually ordered the replacement mic w/ boom for $47 instead of the whole headset for $75. In combination with a preamp and EQ, it sounds miles better than any pickup in my opinion. I have yet to try in a bar, but testing it at loud volumes facing an amp, it seems to be quite resistant to feedback. I also have a Baggs Radius mounted internally, which I can use for extra reinforcement. Maybe run that through monitors and the Shure to the mains, as the main purpose is to get a good sound to the people listening. I will let everyone know how it all works out at a loud gig. Here are some pics..

[jefflester]

Cool, thanks for detailed photos. Can you tell us the model number?

[Ben Milne]

seems like you're all over everything then. rig looks great.

[bonesatr]

Thanks. its a "Shure RPM 104 WH20XLR mic cable conn assembly"
I think you have to get it directly from shure through someone else. heres B&H oops $57

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/182591-REG/Shure_RPM104_RPM104_Cable_Assembly.html

[Poener]

Great idea, I hope it works great for you.

[Tbone]

Let us know how it works at a gig. Also, can you explain how it's mounted? I wasn't sure by the pics.

I like my schertler, but I'd like something that can be more easily used with pedals.

[mandroid]

Tbone, given Dyn M is a dynamic type mech too..

just short the cold and ground together in an XLR to TR 1/4" adapter, then plug into your guitar pedals,
then, if you still need a long cable run, again , at the other end of your stomp box chain,
plug that output into a DI, then you essentially, re 'balance' ,
IE re-divide shield-ground , and Cold, signal return. then there is a shield around the 2 signal path wires.

[Paul Kotapish]

Thanks for the post. Going with a dynamic mic is a very interesting idea--looking forward to hearing about how it performs on stage.

[bonesatr]

T bone - I used just the carpenter jack from an old Schatten VVM pickup, and some plastic velcro with adhesive backs. It kind of snaps, more than velcros. I cut one the shape of the carpenter jack, and the other for the mic larger, so I could have some tabs to grab hold of when taking it off. The yellow paper was cut out to cover the exposed adhesive part. Its pretty strong, but Im still fairly careful. Since it is a pain to take a carpenter jack on and off, this system allows me to just leave it on, while only removing the mic, which has about a 4' XLR attached. I am using a converter to 1/4" for use with the preamp. hope that helps some

I also set up a mixer with an amp and monitor, and stood directly in front of a Yamaha SM15 and managed to get what seemed to be gig levels. EQ and preamp obviously help dramatically at higher volumes..

[bonesatr]

Just used the setup at a show last night. worked great. loud. no feedback. Great tone. Definitely recommend it.

[Fishel]

Looks good.

Personally, I love wireless, because I like to be able to move when I play. I have a Shure Beta 98 mic, which is a small condenser; seems almost immune to feedback. I've clipped it (with its brass-instrument-mounting clip) to either my Tone Guard (curving it around to the front to point at the bottom f-hole), or right to the pickguard.

However, I often double on clarinet, sax, flute, mando, guitar. I got tired of un-clipping and re-clipping the mic, so...

I'm trying out an approach suggested by clarinetist Christian Dawid. I bought a straight 98S housing and cable from Shure, screwed the mic cartridge into it (eliminating the bulky clip base), and I just strap it to my wrist with elastic!

Viola! the mic is right there - at the base of my hand - all the time for every instrument, with only slight repositioning. For mando I slide it up on top of my wrist angled toward the face of the instrument.

So far, so good, but this weekend will be the acid test of the system.

I have it going through an EQ pedal if I need to tweak things from instrument to instrument.

[Rob Gerety]

What are you using for a pre-amp?

[jim_n_virginia]

HOLY MOLEY look at all that gear strapped to your mando! Glad it works for you but it wouldn't for me. Tried all kinds of pickups (internal only for me) and just couldn't get anything that even came close to the sound of a good condenser mic. Any mic I have ever heard aways colors the sound to my ears. Of course if it is really noisy no one will notice.

I play in noisy environments all the time. If there is a lot of noise just swap out the large diaphram cond. mic for a shotgun condenser instrument mic and play closer.

Also too I don't play in rock band type setting so maybe thats why I can get away with not using a pickup.

Oh yeah and welcome to the Cafe and thats a nice looking mandolin from what I can see. Who makes it? It looks like it has a pot leaf on the headstock! :grin:

[Richard Moore]

Thought I'd show the Microvox condensor mic that I use... pictured here with mic attached to my Daley A with a modified viola clamp that Microvox made for me with belt-mounted power supply/preamp on the right. It works great live with a very natural sound.

[foldedpath]

Personally, I love wireless, because I like to be able to move when I play. I have a Shure Beta 98 mic, which is a small condenser; seems almost immune to feedback. I've clipped it (with its brass-instrument-mounting clip) to either my Tone Guard (curving it around to the front to point at the bottom f-hole), or right to the pickguard.

However, I often double on clarinet, sax, flute, mando, guitar. I got tired of un-clipping and re-clipping the mic, so...

I'm trying out an approach suggested by clarinetist Christian Dawid. I bought a straight 98S housing and cable from Shure, screwed the mic cartridge into it (eliminating the bulky clip base), and I just strap it to my wrist with elastic!

Viola! the mic is right there - at the base of my hand - all the time for every instrument, with only slight repositioning. For mando I slide it up on top of my wrist angled toward the face of the instrument.

Now that's an interesting idea! I have the same problem with multi-instrument use. The current solution is separate clip-on mic on each instrument, swapping the cable at the wireless body pack. If that wrist-mount idea worked, it might look a little goofy, but it would sure save some money and hassle with separate mics on each instrument, and the instrument swaps would go faster too.

However.... I can see where it might work for a clarinet player, where the fingers are doing all the manipulation of the instrument, and the wrist position doesn't move relative to the instrument. My wrist is a lot more active than that, when playing mandolin. With a mic on the wrist, I'm guessing it might sound like you're running an electric guitar vibrato or phaser effect, as the mic moves around. Maybe not though. I'll have to try it.


So far, so good, but this weekend will be the acid test of the system.

Yep, let us know how it worked.

[bonesatr]

great ideas, with the wrist mic, and the microvox. Whatever works, Id say!
THose condensors dont feed back? Or are you not playing in really loud environments?
Jim, its definitely not a pot leaf. ha. And its a handbuilt one from a local guy VA.

[foldedpath]

THose condensors dont feed back? Or are you not playing in really loud environments?

I'm using mini clip-on condensers (DPA 4099's and one Audio Technica ATM350) on my mandolin, resonator guitar, and also for the fiddler and acoustic guitar player in our band. No more mic stands cluttering up the stage in front of us. We just have to deal with not tripping over the wires. ;)

Do they feed back? Sure, they'll feed back if they're close enough to a monitor speaker, and the stage level from that speaker is high enough. Or if it's picking up enough speaker wash from nearby walls or a low ceiling. They might feed back a little earlier than a pickup, but it's more gain than an external microphone, so feedback is a little easier to control. You have the freedom of movement you'd have with a pickup, along with a much more realistic sound from the instrument.

I hate the sound of pickups, and will do anything possible to avoid them. That said, I would use a pickup if I played in a loud band where the stage levels were high enough that a clip-on mic wouldn't be practical. The Celtic band I play in isn't that loud. Here's a link to a post with photos of my mic setup: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showpost.php?p=720520&postcount=9

[Rob Gerety]

How does your 4099 set up compare to a Schertler Dyn m?

Am I correct that the 4099 is in the $600 range? Yikes.

[foldedpath]

How does your 4099 set up compare to a Schertler Dyn m?

I've never tried that pickup so I can't make a direct comparison. I've heard that it's one of the better ones, but any pickup... even one based on a dynamic mic element like the Schertler... can't hear more than the immediate surface it's attached to. It's like sticking a stethoscope on the mandolin and listening to that through a PA system. Placing a microphone even a short distance away, allows the sound to develop in free air. It's more like how our ears hear the mandolin. A good external condenser mic with a foot or so of air distance is even better, but then you get into feedback and mobility issues.


Am I correct that the 4099 is in the $600 range? Yikes.

Yeah, if you're buying in the USA like I am, we get killed on the dollar exchange rate vs. the Euro (the mic is made in Denmark).

But you get what you pay for, after that exchange rate and import hit. It's a very well-made microphone with the best clamp and mounting system I've seen, so far. The same idea can be had for much less money with something like the Audio Technica Pro 35, ATM350, or K&K Silver Bullet (which doesn't need phantom power).

I'm using the 4099's on all our instruments because it's the best thing out there right now (IMO), and I care about the sound and the mounting system, not because it makes any economic sense for the bands I'm playing in right now. We'd have to be playing much more often, in larger venues, for this to make any financial sense.

[jim_n_virginia]

Those condensors dont feed back? Or are you not playing in really loud environments?


It does if I crank too loud! LOL! :))

Played a gig last night with one condenser (AT-4040) at a noisy crowded Cafe/Bar with guitar, mandolin, fiddle, bass on one Bose PAS system and it worked fine had plenty of volume.

Then again we were playing fiddle tunes and such not Nirvana or Metallica! :mandosmiley:

[Rob Gerety]

I've never tried that pickup so I can't make a direct comparison. I've heard that it's one of the better ones, but any pickup... even one based on a dynamic mic element like the Schertler... can't hear more than the immediate surface it's attached to.

This makes a lot of sense to me from a theoretical point of view. I just wish I could actually hear the two solutions in an A/B situation with a good sound guy getting the most out of both in a fairly loud environment. There doesn't seem to be all that much free air between the mic element and the instrument in the typical clip on situation. So I'll admit that I have a tiny bit of skepticism. I have a Schertler. One of these days I may get a clip on and give it a whirl. Its hard to really test it though. You have to let someone else play and get out front and really listen to the two options in a typical playing environment.

There is something attractive about using a mic on a stand like Jim does. It is so simple. And you can switch instruments easily with no hassle. Plus there is no question in my mind - it produces the best and most natural sound. It's just that darn feedback thing - but Jim seems to have dealt with that successfully in the typical kind of environment I might see. I'm considering selling all my pickups (mando and guitar) and my pre amps and buying one or two good mics. Maybe keep the Schertler. You can throw that thing on an instrument in 30 seconds.

[foldedpath]

This makes a lot of sense to me from a theoretical point of view. I just wish I could actually hear the two solutions in an A/B situation with a good sound guy getting the most out of both in a fairly loud environment. There doesn't seem to be all that much free air between the mic element and the instrument in the typical clip on situation.

The big difference isn't just getting a little distance away (I might have over-emphasized that). It's also the way a clip-on or external mic can hear the air mass resonating inside the body, as well as a larger area of vibrating top. A mic might also pick up some resonance from the back plate, if you're using a Tonegard or holding the mandolin away from your body.

That's what a contact pickup misses. It can't hear the resonant air mass in the body cavity at all. Because a thin piece of wood vibrates more freely than a thick solidbody instrument, just listening to a thin spot of wood on the top or saddle is enough to provide cues to the ear that you're hearing an acoustic instrument and not a full-on electric mandolin. But it's missing that essential "air" tone. Of course the flip side is that this is why pickups are also more resistant to feedback. No free lunch there.

A pickup also exaggerates transients from the pick attack because it's so close to that source. A clip-on mic masks those transients a little, by mixing in other sounds like the air resonance to smooth out the tone. That's one of the main things I dislike about pickups, aside from the general tone. The sound seems to leap off the string the moment I touch it with a pick, instead of "blooming" a little, like the way the sound reaches my ears or a microphone. It's a subtle thing, and I think it's one reason why some folks just naturally prefer mics over pickups when the conditions permit it.


So I'll admit that I have a tiny bit of skepticism. I have a Schertler. One of these days I may get a clip on and give it a whirl. Its hard to really test it though. You have to let someone else play and get out front and really listen to the two options in a typical playing environment.

Or use a wireless rig, or a long cable to get out in front of the PA. That's also a great way to do a sound check, if you're running the PA system as well as playing.


There is something attractive about using a mic on a stand like Jim does. It is so simple. And you can switch instruments easily with no hassle.

Switching instruments is easier, true. The other big advantage with a mic on a stand is volume control. Just step close to the mic for solos, back away for playing backup, although this works better if you play standing up, instead of seated.

On the other hand, you can't EQ different instruments separately, and it's more gear to carry and set up. Mics on stands can be a visual distraction for the audience too. I like watching clips of Chris Thile and the Punch Bro's performing; the way they can freely wander around with their clip-on mics and wireless rigs. There's nothing in the way of seeing what their hands are doing. Thile doesn't have to deal with swapping instruments though, and he has a soundperson at the board for riding gain on solos. So ultimately it's all compromises and personal choice.


I'm considering selling all my pickups (mando and guitar) and my pre amps and buying one or two good mics. Maybe keep the Schertler. You can throw that thing on an instrument in 30 seconds.

Give it a shot. And don't sell the Schertler if you can avoid it. I probably keep way too much stuff I'm not using, but it's never a good idea to get rid of something that you might need later on. Playing on a loud stage, for example.

[Rob Gerety]

When I bought this Schertler I was considering other options. One was the KK silver bullet. I talked to Dieter at K&K and he persuaded me to avoid the Silver Bullet in my playing environment because of feedback. But I must say all the fiddle players in my world seem to use clip on mics with excellent results. I guess you just have to try things and see how it goes.

[foldedpath]

Yeah, it's a common setup for fiddlers. To be fair about the comparisons, a fiddle puts out two or three times the acoustic energy of a mandolin, so they have fewer feedback issues to deal with (i.e. the mic can have less gain on it).

If I didn't think the tone would suck for what we're doing, I'd be playing a resonator mandolin in our Celtic group. :grin:

[Fishel]

What are you using for a pre-amp?

I don't need a pre-amp, because the wireless beltpack transmitter is effectively the pre-amp.

As to the mic-on-wrist looking funny, I run the wire from the beltpack inside my shirt, and it is strapped to my forearm with 2 elastics underneath my long sleeves. Just a little shows at the wrist - very unobtrusive. If you perform in a T shirt, then of course it will stand out...but if you perform in a T shirt, chances are you're not too concerned with appearances anyway.


So here's the report on yesterday's "acid test" of my condenser-mic-strapped-to-my-wrist system:

In a combat situation like the wedding we were playing (i.e. high volume levels needed for the dance sets; crowded bandstand with drumset and monitor speakers nearby), the mic is definitely harder to work with than a pickup. For sheer clean LOUDNESS a pickup is much better. The fiddler next to me could go louder with no problem. But...he sounded like an electronic impression of a violin.

For tone the wrist mic is still a much better approach. On the quieter tunes there were absolutely no problems! In the crash-and-slam tunes I had to mess around with settings to get the best tone/volume arrangements.

I will here reiterate the obvious that others have stated: when you're doing your own sound on the stand, it's impossible to equal what a sound engineer out front could accomplish with the same setup.

The 7-band EQ pedal I had plugged inline turned out to be a lifesaver. It was possible to get much more gain without feedback than with just the channel's 3-way tone controls on my Mackie mixer.

Logistics: The EQ pedal and wireless receiver are pre-mounted on a homemade pedalboard, ready to plug into the mixer - big timesaver.

I must report that at our loudest, I did not manage to get the mando mic up to where I could be heard without hitting hard. However, with time I'm sure I will refine my control of this system.

Re: the question of wrist movement creating sound changes:
1) I've chosen up on top of the wrist, angled, for the f-hole mandolin, over inside the wrist because I prefer the tone. In that position, the mic is 2-3 inches away from the instrument, and not pointed right into the tonehole, so the sound changes are minimized. Also, I'm not waving my arm around like a flag. I do move my hand around some, though, and the sound changes are not too noticeable.
2) I have to chop lightly to avoid distorting (my Givens really BARKS). A higher SPL mic would probably help.
3) For my roundback, the mic strapped on the inside of my wrist pointing straight ahead works pretty darn well (though an AT lavalier dropped inside and EQ'd gives a little better sound).

All in all, a system I definitely intend to keep working with. For the freedom of movement, and the ease of switching among 5 instruments, (winds and strings) - there's nothing like it. Even though at this wedding I kept a stand mic nearby for emergency backup, under less demanding conditions, I don't even need that - thus I have a clean clean clean space onstage.

[pops1]

I have tried a clip on k&k and it fed back to easy. i have tried a lot of different pickups and am now using a schertler going into an art tube pre amp into an old trace elliot amp. i can take out treble and bass before it gets to the 5 band eq so to maximize the effect of the eq and i am getting a very nice sound out of the schlertler. even if i go thru the p.a. i use the art pre and it sound better. thing i like best and sounds best is to pick lightly and not have to work so hard let the amp work for me like an electric guitar. so picking from very light to light for volume differences. would be nice to have a volume control on the mandolin, i use the art next to my vocal mic stand so i can change volume there, but for solos it would be nice to have a control on the mandolin. thinking of splitting the signal after the art and going to two different channels with a foot switch for a volume difference. could use a volume pedal, but this would be cheaper as i can make it myself. any way just one more opinion. a mic is still best, but this works very well. may try a clip on mic to add to the scherlter and use both for a better sound and more volume, but as it strands the sound i am getting now is very good and representative of the sound of my mandolin and what i want to hear. All this experimenting is sometimes frustrating, but always fun at the same time. guess that is why musicians are never satisfied and people can keep selling us new products.:)

[Perry Babasin]

I devised something remarkably similar that we have been using for about a month now, and when I get home today later I'll take a picture and post. It is an old MiniFlex Innovations, Soundhole Mic (no longer in production) that I mounted to an arm-rest clamp. I play on a Church Worship team which is pretty much a loud Rock & Roll environment (I'm in California, ha,ha,ha). The acoustic mando can easily get lost, there is also an acoustic guitar and we provide many "dramatic dynamic moments" during the set.

Anyway, I used a Fishman bridge pu for years, and it was OK but not very natural sounding. The whole stage switched to in-ear monitors (which are great btw) and I can actually hear myself now which is very nice, but it really pointed out to my ears how funky the pu sounded so we started experimenting. First I used a little shot-gun condensor which sounded beautiful but it also picked up a bunch of ambiant stage noise and was extremely hard to control (with the in-ear monitors) so I put my little contraption together and it sounds outstanding, and very natural - AND - it is audible even with the screaming electric guitars and drums. I send it straight to the board and couldn't be happier. In fact I am currently working on "Franken-mic the sequel" which is an old Crown condensor head-mic that I have mutilated and re-purposed. It's going to be lighter and less cumbersome than the MiniFlex (which I still love btw).

Thanks.............. Perry

[Fishel]

If that Mini-Flex mic is what I'm thinking, it is the soundhole mic which is now marketed by GHS, and is made in China instead of California. They're great.

I bought one of those original Mini-Flexes, and when a wire shorted out inside (past warranty) I sent it back, and they generously sent me a new one - it had been slightly redesigned, and was now being made in China. A couple of years later, another problem...they sent me another new slightly redesigned one, free!

I've been using this one for years on guitar. As far as I'm concerned, it's as good an acoustic sound as any under about $300.00 or so.

They sell for about $60.00! And they now have a volume control, which is the only thing that was missing.

I even tried this on sax, and it wasn't bad.

[Perry Babasin]

Yeah! I'm sure it's the same one, in fact here are some pictures...

I bought it used on ebay a few years ago and never did anything with it until recently and man, I'm glad I did, it sounds like systems costing much more. This contraption seems a little bulky but it really isn't, no feedback issues and an occasional battery change (1 AA in a month I've changed it once).:grin:

-- Perry