Black Strings?

[Heliocentric]

I've looked through the threads here and I hope I'm not asking a question that has already been answered. I wipe off my strings every time I put my mandolin away, but I'm still noticing that the steel strings are getting blackened portions where my fingers touch. I've noticed the same thing tends to happen when I'm touching steel tools. Does anyone else have a similar problem or are my fingers just extremely acidic? Any solutions?

[KristinEliza]

Everyone's PH is different. I've heard of violinists whose fingers 'eat' through their strings in hours. I wish I could remember what material of strings they had to play with to get some play out of their instrument, but it's been a long time since I heard/read the story.

[mandroid]

Monel is pretty corrosion resistant, if magnetic response is not needed try those
[ will be the wound ones]

[Walt]

My fingers will destroy a set of strings in one sitting. The wound strings are a bit of a problem, but the plain steel strings will get so bad that I can't slide from one fret to the next. The funny thing is, I can pass my mando to someone else and by the time they finish playing one song, the strings will be clean again. GHS Fast Fret will help for one or two songs.
I guess Kristin is right when she says everyone's PH is different.
I have yet to find a solution. I'll be interested to hear about everyone else's experiences.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Try some nickel wound strings. J67 D'ADDARIO nickel wound: 11,14,26W,40. Although it's only the G & D strings that are wound,it's half the battle.
I suffer from acidic perspiration,but not to any high degree. After a few practice sessions,i usually wipe my strings over with either 3-in-one oil,or 'Servisol' switch cleaner. Just get a small amount of either on a soft cotton cloth,wipe the strings over lightly,taking care not to get any on the fingerboard,& then wipe it off thoroughly. Both the oil & switch clearner have oxidant removal & prevention properties & they help prevent those 'rough' patches on the plain strings,
Ivan:mandosmiley:

[Ben Milne]

While we're on the subject, does anybody have experience with these String Cleaner (http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/CLEAN.htm)s from Elderly? I'd think a can of deoxit and one of these could be effective.

[John Flynn]

You might try coated strings, like D'Addario EXP's or Elixers. Each of those brands has a different kind of coating, one of which might work for you. You also might try T-I's. Whatever kind of steel they are made of, they never seem to corrode, even after months. All of those strings are more expensive, but if they solve the problem, they would be worth it.

[Tim2723]

You might also investigate just why your hands are so corrosive to the metal. I just read a report saying that human skin can range from Ph 5.5 to nearly neutral. Also, many soap products are very alkaline (upwards to pH 11), which might also be a source of the problem. Have you ever considered a change in diet to regulate your pH, a hand cream to neutralize your skin before playing, or changing your hand washing practices? I would think that getting to the source of the problem would be more effective than limiting your string choices.

[Bertram Henze]

You might also investigate just why your hands are so corrosive to the metal... Have you ever considered a change in diet to regulate your pH

Hey does that mean I just have to eat the right pizza and can break into a bank by touching the safe? :grin:

But seriously, my plain strings (D'Addario) turn black after some weeks, but it does not seem to affect the tone. Wound strings are a different story, of course, because of contact corrosion (2 metals + acid). I apply Dr. Duck's Ax Wax every time after playing, keeps my strings ringing for 3 months (instead of 2 weeks if I did nothing).

[mando_dan]

I've looked through the threads here and I hope I'm not asking a question that has already been answered. I wipe off my strings every time I put my mandolin away, but I'm still noticing that the steel strings are getting blackened portions where my fingers touch. I've noticed the same thing tends to happen when I'm touching steel tools. Does anyone else have a similar problem or are my fingers just extremely acidic? Any solutions?

I've heard Sam Bush say he has the same problem hence Monel steel strings. The Gibson Sam Bush strings are pretty nice if you haven't tried them and they may last a little longer for you.

Hmmm, blue nitrile gloves? :)

[Mike Snyder]

+1 on the Bush strings.

[mandopixie]

You should also try drinking only water with a ph of not less than 9.5

[Heliocentric]

So I guess this means I'll have to cut back on my daily vinegar bath followed by smearing myself in orange peels?

[Chris Biorkman]

EXP strings don't get grimey at all.

[Bernie Daniel]

Medical studies in patients using sintered glass frit micro-electrodes typically show that the extracellular pH of the human dermis is typically near neutral (mean pH = 7.54; sd = 0.09; n >100).

Someone earlier in the string mentioned a pH 5.5 (acid) above (this is about the pH of vinegar) and I have seen actual measurements of from some individuals that do show slightly acidic perspiration.

But I would guess that pH 5.5 would certainly be a rather rare case, at the outter limit maybe -- but probably plausible.

Despite all the TV commercials for underarm deoderants I have not seen real studies showing a difference in the skin pH of males and females, or in differences on different parts of the body on an individual.

Back to strings. I would think that these kind of pH values (on normal skin) should not be causing rapid changes to metal instrument strings.

If you dip stings in household vinegar (generally much more acidic than your skin) what happens? I've never tried it myself.

Might be an intersting experiment to try sometime -- if you do not get noticable results in a few minutes with vinegar I'd say the idea that it is finger pH is causing it -- over a short time scale is questionable.

One thought -- as the perspiration on the strings dries (i.e., the water evaporates) the concentration of the acidic entities (the hydronium ion) would increase and so the pH could drop considerably -- maybe that is what is going on?

Hence we should wipe the strings when done?

[acousticphd]

I also have this problem/condition, and for a long time would use a set of strings for only several sessions. I find the corrosion it is more pronounced on the plain steel (unwound) strings; to me it is more of a comfort issue than a tone-killing problem, as the strings quickly get rough and not nice to play. I have used various string "cleaners" (eg, Fastfret) and coatings (Stringlife) over the years; I find these help a little, but not for long, and wouldn't strongly recommend them myself. Frequent hand washing, as well as cleaning both hands and the strings frequently during a playing session, also help a little. I get comments about the rags and hankies I always have when I play.

Because the string darkening/corrosion happens during the course of playing, simply wiping the strings down after a playing session (as a lot of people recommend is all they need), does not really help much if at all - it's too late. Another approach, rather than trying to coat the strings, is to buff off the corrosion. Lately I have quit using string cleaning/coating products, which are a hassle and can be a bit of a mess, and buff my strings at intervals with a small piece of abrasive pad, like you would buy in the paint section at Lowe's. This works pretty well to clean off the discoloration and brighten the strings up. I might use a medium coarseness on the wound string, and fine on the plain strings. I'm sure the pads must leave fine scratches on the string surface, but it is much less noticeable than the corrosion.

[acousticphd]

Medical studies in patients using sintered glass frit micro-electrodes typically show that the extracellular pH of the human dermis is typically near neutral (mean pH = 7.54; sd = 0.09; n >100).

Someone earlier in the string mentioned a pH 5.5 (acid) above (this is about the pH of vinegar) and I have seen actual measurements of from some individuals that do show slightly acidic perspiration.

But I would guess that pH 5.5 would certainly be a rather rare case, at the outter limit maybe -- but probably plausible.

Despite all the TV commercials for underarm deoderants I have not seen real studies showing a difference in the skin pH of males and females, or in differences on different parts of the body on an individual.

Back to strings. I would think that these kind of pH values (on normal skin) should not be causing rapid changes to metal instrument strings.

If you dip stings in household vinegar (generally much more acidic than your skin) what happens? I've never tried it myself.

Might be an intersting experiment to try sometime -- if you do not get noticable results in a few minutes with vinegar I'd say the idea that it is finger pH is causing it -- over a short time scale is questionable.

One thought -- as the perspiration on the strings dries (i.e., the water evaporates) the concentration of the acidic entities (the hydronium ion) would increase and so the pH could drop considerably -- maybe that is what is going on?

Hence we should wipe the strings when done?


I don't know personally the range of normal skin pH, but something to remember is that pH is narrowly defined bythe concentration of hydrogen ion in solution, and so isn't going to take into account factors like moisture, oxygen, and other chemicals that might contribute to corrosion. We regularly contact and consume a lot of products and foods where the pH is 2-3 units from neutral. Normal vinegar I think, can be closer to pH 4.5, which is pretty tart but still not poison.

My guess is that it is not simply pH, but a combination of things including salts, other chemicals, moisture, etc. Again though, for people who experience this, you can observe it happening (especially to the plain strings) in moments, over the frets where there has been the most contact. Like pretty much any metal oxidation/corrosion, once it starts seems to proceed more quickly, so when you put an instrument away with some string corrosion, it will often look worse next time you take it out, especially if it has been damp.

[Bernie Daniel]

acousticphd: I don't know personally the range of normal skin pH, but something to remember is that pH is narrowly defined bythe concentration of hydrogen ion in solution, and so isn't going to take into account factors like moisture, oxygen, and other chemicals that might contribute to corrosion. We regularly contact and consume a lot of products and foods where the pH is 2-3 units from neutral. Normal vinegar I think, can be closer to pH 4.5, which is pretty tart but still not poison.

My guess is that it is not simply pH, but a combination of things including salts, other chemicals, moisture, etc. Again though, for people who experience this, you can observe it happening (especially to the plain strings) in moments, over the frets where there has been the most contact. Like pretty much any metal oxidation/corrosion, once it starts seems to proceed more quickly, so when you put an instrument away with some string corrosion, it will often look worse next time you take it out, especially if it has been damp.

Some comments on your comments -- just to clear up the misconceptions: 1) The pH is the negative log of the hydrogen ion concentration -- so the two terms refer to exactly the same thing;
2) and a change of one pH unit is a ten-fold change in hydrogen ion concentration (pH 7 is the same as 1*10-7 moles/liter hydronium ion etc.);
3) you don't need to worry about moisture in an aqueous solution -- the water IS the moisture;
4) the food you consume probably has nothing to do with the pH of your perspiration -- that is regulated in your kidneys and blood and does not vary much if you want to be among the living -- excess acid is excreted via the #####. (amazing! the cyber-robot blocked the word u-r-i-n-e!)
5) the pH of a food has (generally) little to nothing to do with its "toxicity".

I guess a little knowledge of chemistry can be a dangerous thing :)

And BTW there are not a whole lot of "other chemicals" (relatively speaking) in the prespiration on your finger tips -some salt yes -- but in very dilute solution -- and maybe a few aminoacids and a little urea perhaps.

But back to your situation. Let me get this clear. Are you saying the strings discolor and perhaps rust or corrode in a few sessions? Would that mean specifically it happens over a period of a few days or a week? If not what is the approximate time frame for this to happen? Also can you be more specific as to the effect? Is it "rusting" (discoloring) or is it "pitting" of the metal? If you wipe the rough stings with a clean white paper towel is there rust on it?

Now you could easily check out your skin -- try to get some pH paper (just any cheap kind will do -- don't go for the expensive kit of pH papers scientific supply houses sell -- that's overkill) and test the acidity of your finger tips. Just press your finger firmly on the paper and look at the color chart. You will probably find it is in the pH 6 - 8 range but its dirt cheap to test it.

Also despite what you say I think you would be much better off if you did wipe down the strings with a clean cloth -- maybe saturate with a little polish? If a chemical is causing the problem -- removing it will slow the process at least.

Finally you did not mention what kind of strings you are using. Years ago when I was a grad student I bought 100 feet of both 0.010", and 0.014" string wire from a music supply house because I thought I could save money making my own strings but this stuff rusted very quickly and each day in the summer I had to wipe the rust off. This did not happen with Gibson, D'Addario or Martin strings.

[Heliocentric]

Hi Bernie,

The strings will start to discoulour after a longer session, say an hour or so. The oxidation left over won't come off with a rag, though I do wipe them off after I'm finished.

I took the bull by the horns last night. I cut up an old t-shirt and put the rag between the fretboard and the strings then took a cloth with some metal polish to the unwound strings. Worked fairly well, but isn't an ideal solution as I don't want to get metal polish in the grooves of the wound strings. The quest continues...

[Kevin K]

I've been impressed with Deoxit. They have a package called Axe Wipes.

Good hand cleaning including hand sanitizer,
deoxit the strings before and after playing
seems to help.....

[Walt]

This may shed some light on the perspiration theory. As mentioned above, my fingers corrode strings so bad, that after a couple of songs I can no longer slide from one fret to the next(at least not without a lot of resistance.)
I can say that it is not perspiration causing the problem in my case. My hands do not sweat at all. In fact, I could go outside and run a mile and I would never break a sweat.
As mentioned before, I can play 30 songs, completely destroy my strings, then pass my instrument to someone else, and after they play one song the strings will be perfectly clean again.
I wonder if oils in the skin would explain the situation? Surely some of the string companies have done studies on this.

[Heliocentric]

I can say that it is not perspiration causing the problem in my case. My hands do not sweat at all. In fact, I could go outside and run a mile and I would never break a sweat.


I'd tend to agree, I wash my hands before I play and I can't say I have particularly sweaty hands. I keep forgetting to add that I'm using Dean Markley strings at the moment.

[Bertram Henze]

As mentioned before, I can play 30 songs, completely destroy my strings, then pass my instrument to someone else, and after they play one song the strings will be perfectly clean again.

Great - now I can never again play someone else's instrument :crying:

[Tim2723]

Ewww! That's almost as nasty as playing someone else's harmonica. ;)

[acousticphd]

But back to your situation. Let me get this clear. Are you saying the strings discolor and perhaps rust or corrode in a few sessions? Would that mean specifically it happens over a period of a few days or a week? If not what is the approximate time frame for this to happen? Also can you be more specific as to the effect? Is it "rusting" (discoloring) or is it "pitting" of the metal? If you wipe the rough stings with a clean white paper towel is there rust on it?


Ah, you really should have identified yourself as a chemist from the beginning, and I would have argued differently! I'm only a biologst. :) I have done the pH paper measurements of numerous foods and liquids at home (at my wife's request; she was worried about acidity), including skin (which seems often/normally be less than pH 6). My main point was that between moisture, salt, acid, and unknowns, I don't conclude that acidity is cause of string blackening.

As to the other questions: I don't know what the difference is between the black substance, and actual rust, or whether discoloration leads directly to rusting. Unused strings that I have stored for a few months typically have black residue that rubs off on a white rag. I don't find much difference between the different brands of strings I have used. In particular, I have never noticed any significant difference among many brands of uncoated strings; and in particular I feel that the plain steel strings are effectively, if not literally, identical among most brands. So I buy generic strings, and try to change them more often.

If I install a new, fresh set of strings, and play tunes for 10-15mins, discoloration will already visible on the plain steel strings over the most-used frets. This progresses over time, so that after a longer jam/session, the discoloration and roughness is quite a bit more pronounced. So, a time-frame of minutes, progressing over a time-frame of an hour or two. Some vigorous rubbing or buffing, like with a fine abrasive pad, can remove some of the color and smooth the roughness. Again, I do not say this is "rust", but given time, rust eventually can and does form. Sweat/dampness and weather seems to be a contributor, because the discoloration is more pronounced if I am perspiring, like at a summer picking jam. Wiping down is a great idea, and surely helps remove skin residue, grunge, fingerprints, and dried sweat. I'm a wiper. But unfortunately it doesn't reverse or prevent the initial corrosion or discoloration. That happens during play, within minutes. Although, a thorough wipedown might reduce corrosion that continues after the instrument is put away sits in the case.