Howe-Orme

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Did anyone see the H/O Mandolinetto on ebay-if I'm not mistaken #it sold for $87.00, with original case, better yet who bought it?
That seemed like a good price, even with the resoration it would have needed. Just my 2 cents http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Eugene]

$87.00! I wish I had seen it. Then I might have been able to ecstatically reply, "It was me!" As is, you have only made me feel guilty for having abandoned my old eBay habit.

[Bob DeVellis]

That instrument was a real mess. The fingerboard on a Howe-Orme rides above the soundboard (another feature Loar didn't invent). A very common problem with these instruments is failure of the neck joint, which causes the nect to rotate forward, driving the fingerboard extension into the soundboard. On the one in question, the fingerboard had been very sloppily glued flush against the soundboard, thus forcing the neck way out of position. The gap created at the heel by this atrocity was just filled with gobs of glue. The only piece of good news is that the glue seemed to be crystallizing and thus might be something that could be removed without destroying the wood -- hopefully. As it is, the action's going to be about an inch off the fingerboard and making it right will involve major surgery. So, don't feel too bad about it's getting away from you.

Prices for these have really escalated in the last year or so with at least two mid-level models advertised with an asking price of $3500. They used to be a few hundred dollars, say 3 years ago. But they're surprisingly nice instruments when they're in good shape. And cute as a button, to boot.

[Eugene]

Sounds like winning this particular piece might have prompted the statement of "Eewww, it's me...sigh." On the elevated fingerboard thing, classical guitar builder Thomas Humphrey seems to feel rather proprietary towards this same design feature (so much so as to patent it); however, this has been a feature of violin ancestors into antiquity as well as being a routine feature of Germanic guitars dating to the early 19th century.

[Jim Garber]

I think this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=308&item=3745791829) is the one you are talking about. Hey at that price add maybe $500 repairs, you would still be ahead of the game. Or am I being naïve?

Jim

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Bob, Jim, and Eugene,

I knew you guys would share some thoughts on this topic. I think $87.00 isn't bad even if it became a wall hanger. But it would be worth the effort to restore http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Eric F.]

I have wondered about the prices on these. I almost bought one off eBay a few years ago for $300 or so. That seemed to be the going price at the time. Then I started seeing them in the $3,000 plus range. Wouldn't have been a bad investment, apparently. But what would make them worth that much to a player as opposed to an investor? #Bob says they can be surprisingly nice and cute, but for more than three grand, I need lots more more than nice and cute.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

I think the value is in the history of the instrument and perhaps not its playabilty...could you imagine what they'd be worth if it was Bill Monroe's first choice http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

They were originally fairly high-end instruments made with excellent materials and craftsmanship. The one we're talking about was the mahogany, rock-bottom, plain vanilla model. Their biggest flaw is the neck joint -- apparently very similar to Vega's cylinder-backs. But Vega has its fingerboard flush against the top (on purpose!), which provides extra support. On the Howe-Ormes, the extension over the top is a tapered wedge with air between fingerboard and top. Combine that with careless application of bluegrass strings and a century of damp weather and you have a serious problem.

Depending on what style of music you play, this might not be your thing. Great for jazz, folk, classical, Irish, and the popular music of its day. I'd say they're in the same league as a Lyon & Healy or a nice cylinder-back, which also run around $3000 and up for healthy examples. Frankly, I think they're every bit as good as an F-4, although totally different. Plus, these Howe-Ormes are older and rarer. They're amazingly light and have surprisingly big voices. The cost to have a new one built would far exceed the cost of a nice old one in good shape, which is one way to determine intrinsic value. There just hasn't been any demand (very few people have ever seen one, never mind played one) so the prices have been substantially deflated. These were the first guitar-shaped mandolins made in the US. Their primary market was mandolin ensembles and they had the "full line" (mandolin, mandola, cello mandolin and octave mandolin) before Gibson. Their marketing was petty feeble, though, with just the occasional ad in the music mags of the day -- much less conspicuous than some of their competitors.

Another factor in their price escalation is that the analogous Howe-Orme bulge-top guitars have garnered many endorsements from high-visibility players (Martin Simpson and George Harrison come to mind), routinely sell in the tousands of dollars, and California luthier Rick Turner (who also collects the mandolin family instruments) has incorporated their features into a new guitar design. Dealers are taking note. Lowell Levinger (Players' Vintage Instruments), Mandolin Bros. and Music Emporium have all had examples of Howe-Orme mandolins and mandolas on offer recently. Lowell has at least two others currently undergoing restoration. He bid on this one, but bailed at $68.69.

This one is certainly worth $87. The pick guard alone is probably worht that much. But my fear would be that it will be impossible to separate the neck from the top without badly splintering the wood. Getting it right would really take a lot of time and effort and not many people have experience working on these. I've been tempted to by one that's shot to saw lengthwise and inspect the construction up close. But this one isn't bad enough for that fate, as it is salvagable if someone has the patience and is willing to spend the cash. If anybody has a total wreck they want to unload for under $50, I might be interested.

Sorry if this sounds like a sales job. I just really like 'em.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Bob... you have a "plathora of knowledge" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

michael:

Howe-Orme is one area where I've done a fair amount of digging. I'm pretty thick about a bunch of other stuff, I assure you.

[Eric F.]

I agree with Michael _ Bob's posts are generally enlightening.

[Jim Garber]

Bob... you have a "plathora of knowledge" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hmmmm... a plathora... isn't that one of those early Greek instruments that is the progenitor of the mandolin? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Eugene]

Naw, I think it's a primitive mammal, indigenous to Australia.

[Jim Garber]

One question I have: do all the H-O mandolinettos have "cylinder" tops? Are the backs longitudinally-arched as well? I believe that the non-H-O ones are essentially flattopped instruments?

Jim

[Eric F.]

The plethora is a mythical, many-headed beast that is said to lurk in the closets of those with too many instruments, occasionally coming out and gobbling one up. It is said to have a particular fondness for the taste of Pac Rim mandolins. They are like Fritos to it.

[Eugene]

One question I have: do all the #H-O mandolinettos have "cylinder" tops? Are the backs longitudinally-arched as well? I believe that the non-H-O ones are essentially flattopped instruments?
Howe-Orme backs are flat. Once again, about as good a source as you'll find is Bob's Howe-Orme article (http://bellsouthpwp.net/r/d/rdevelli/The%20Elias%20Howe%20Co.htm) with plenty of links to patent drawings, etc. Howe-Orme's mandolinettos are the only ones I've seen with that odd longitudinal arch to the top. I've handled a few labeled American Conservatory and I think (maybe) an unlabeled one that also smacked of L&H. Another fine article on guitar-shaped mandolins in general is Gregg Miner's (http://home.earthlink.net/~gcminer/mandolinetto.htm).

[Jim Garber]

Howe-Orme's mandolinettos are the only ones I've seen with that odd longitudinal arch to the top.
I have a Vega cylinder guitar that has the same arching. Obviously it is from the same or similar litter.

Jim

[Bill Snyder]

That is a nice looking instrument Jim. Do you still have it?