Should a person know their scales.

[Shawn Gambrel]

Should i learn my scales or not worry about them.

[fishtownmike]

Yes! I use to think it wasn't necessary because i could play by ear. But learning scales made understanding what i was playing a whole lot easier...Mike

[Shawn Gambrel]

Yes! I use to think it wasn't necessary because i could play by ear. But learning scales made understanding what i was playing a whole lot easier...Mike

How. I can play some by ear. ive played almost 2 years and its not all there like i cant do breaks and stuff but what does it do fro you.

[Jim]

Well to start out scales are wonderful dexterity exercises , just running up & down them. They are, for me, how i come up with the notes to play in a break, Usually notes taken from the scales of the chords I'm playing over. Then a mixture of Pentatonic scales symetric scales & chromatic along with some double stops trem picking & arpeggios as well as a good ear can lead to a good break, fill or solo.

[Mike Bunting]

Of course, it goes without saying. You should use a metronome too.

[allenhopkins]

Well, suppose you want to play in several different keys. You would be better off knowing what notes are commonly used in, say, B flat. The most commonly used notes are the "do-re-mi" of the B flat scale. If you know your B flat scale, where all the notes fall on the fingerboard, you might be less likely to hit an E natural "clam," and would instead play E flat.

And, really, the more you know, the better player you become. I am always wondering about posts about "why do I have to learn to read music?" or "why do I need to practice with a metronome?" or some such. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but getting more knowledge and skill and experience is only going to help in your development.

I don't think most mandolinists have to learn scales in every possible key, but honestly, what does it hurt? You may never play a break in C sharp in 50 years of mandolin playing, but knowing that you could if called upon play a C sharp scale and follow a melody in that key is certainly a positive.

[resophil]

"Should a person know there scales."

Before you start on scales, work on the difference between "there" and "their" for a while...

[Pete Martin]

If a person knows scales, it tells them (BEFORE they play a piece) where the notes they most likely will need are located for that piece. It is similar to using a road map while driving (or these days a GPS). You might find a new place without a map or other aid, but if you have one, you may get there a lot easier and a lot more efficiently.:)

I am a pretty decent improviser, and am VERY glad I learned the scales and modes in all keys. As a matter of fact, right now, I am expanding that and learning (for Jazz playing) all the bebop scales in all keys and all positions. Even though I’ve only been working on this project the last couple of months, it has already paid good benefits. On the 2 Jazz gigs I played this weekend, the knowledge gained from those scales I’ve worked on (committed to memory and in my hands) allowed me to play some very cool lines I never could have without having done that work.

Scales and arpeggios are the building blocks of all good improvising. LEARN THEM!!! You’ll never regret it.:mandosmiley:

[Shawn Gambrel]

They dont make a bit of since to me i would have to have a teacher explain how to do them cause i cant get anywhere with them. :))

[Barry Platnick]

Check out this link to some basic scale lessons:

http://http://www.folkofthewood.com/page5296.htm


And not to be rude but resophil...this aint the spelling bee cafe.

[Barry Platnick]

Here's the link, I hope


http://www.folkofthewood.com/page5296.htm

[Mike Bunting]

Wow!

[allenhopkins]

They dont make a bit of since to me i would have to have a teacher explain how to do them cause i cant get anywhere with them.

If you're waiting for us to tell you not to bother, you'll be waiting quite a while. It's not rocket science, and by playing the mandolin, you've learned a lot more than you'd probably admit. But, of course, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. The fact that you've even asked about it, probably means that someone's suggested to you that learning some basic scales, etc., might help your playing. That person wasn't trying to "dis" you or lead you into a lot of meaningless exercises. However, you obviously didn't appreciate the suggestion. So, it's your call. What you may find out is that in a few months or years, you'll be more ready to try some more basic developmental work, besides learning a bunch of breaks to a bunch of tunes. You might even say, "Gee, I wish I'd spent some time on this back in 2009." Or not.

[Rick Schmidlin]

Here's the link, I hope


http://www.folkofthewood.com/page5296.htm

Thanks:mandosmiley:

[Bertram Henze]

Scales are the traffic rules of playing.
You probably know how to drive a car, but you should also know what those colorful signs by the road mean. Scales are just like that.

[Ivan Kelsall]

"Should you learn to play scales " - only if you want to !. I've managed pretty well on Banjo,Mandolin & Guitar without learning too many scales - BUT- since begining Mandolin,i have practiced more scales & i've found places where i get wonderful 'patterns of notes' that i can dip into when playing. Not very technical as an explanation i know,but in my playing,i learn where to get the 'sounds' i want, & learning a few scales can do that,
Ivan

[swampstomper]

Mandolin players should indeed know *their* scales -- these are the 'vertical' aspects of the fingerboard, the chords are the 'horizontal' aspects (this is common jazz terminology). The scale degrees are used to define chords, build suspense (leading tones) etc. etc. etc.

Definitely the major scales (Ionian mode) and at least Mixolodian (flattened 7th) and Dorian (flattened 3rd and 7th, probably the most common minor) are everywhere in folk and bluegrass music. For other forms you need additional scales.

[David Lloyd]

FFcP makes it all easier to understand. It did for me. Check out Jazzmando.com . Our moms should have said "play your scales" instead of "eat your vegetables" !:)

[AlanN]

You may never play a break in C sharp in 50 years of mandolin playing, but knowing that you could if called upon play a C sharp scale and follow a melody in that key is certainly a positive.

Unless you want to play Cryin' Holy in C#, like the CG did on Joe's Last Train. Doyle Lawson's mandolin solo is all closed position (no open strings) and he absolutely nails it.

I would think just about every mandolin picker we admire today can play scales, in one form or another.

[Jim]

Pentatonic scales are a Great way to start , they'll get you improvising right away. The notes a,c,d,e,g are the C maj and A min Pentatonic scale. With a little help from your ear you can play any one of these notes over a chord progression in C or Am and they sound good. If (and you should) you continue to learn the Mixolydian and Dorian mode scales you will notice how these 5 notes are in those scales. Pentatonics are NOT the only notes to use in a break but they are a great way to start and with practice and a good ear you'll find you know which other 2 notes you can use in an improvised break over any given chord progression. The way I educated my ear to know where those noted were was by playing the scales in all the different keys over and over. A few minutes each practice will do and it's not a bad way to warm up.

[EarlG]

Yes, Shaun, learn your scales. Like Jim says, pentatonic which is the notes in the chord plus the 2nd and 6th (or major scale minus the 4th and 7th) is easy and gets you improvising very quickly.

That does not mean don't work on the major scales though. And major scales that are not in the guitar friendly keys. There's no telling who you end up playing with if you learn those.

[farmerjones]

The way a mandolin is tuned, it's pretty easy to find do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti on the fingerboard.

Look at it this way: If you learn a tune with no knowledge of where it fits on the scale. If you learn a tune as simply a "copy" of a recording or sheet of notes, you won't understand how tunes are related to each other. You are asking you're memory banks to do it the hard way. You can play off sheet music like a player piano plays from a roll, if that is your preference. Music as robotics rather than language. Music is whatever you want, however you want. If you never have to assimilate you'll never have to adapt. So rock on till you can't rock no more.

[Santiago]

A teacher once explained to me that playing (popular vs. classical) music is a wierd mix of discipline and expression. You spend years getting down the little stupid things that you have to learn like scales and holding the instrument correctly. Then you go into a phase of playing what you feel, and then you go back into a serious study phase. What you learn in the process however, is that each time you go to an expression phase of playing, you have a deeper natural understanding of the fretboard, your runs reach higher, your riffs are more interesting, your melodies are more thought-through. Learning to play an instrument is not easy -- if it were, everyone would be a Bill Monroe. It takes hard work.

[Eric Taylor]

Shawn- I'm probably a little biased on this topic. My aunt is a piano teacher, with a degree in performance and a minor in music theory, and I'm a music composition minor. I also took violin lessons for over 10 years beginning when I was 11. In fact, I use the same scale and exercise book for my mandolin now (Kreutzer 42 studies for violin- it's a workout!!!:disbelief:). And David: my mother didn't shy away from the vegetables, but I heard "remember to practice your scales" SEVERAL times during my childhood. Remember, a solo is just a scale played out of order- for me it helps to actually know what it is I'm playing, for you it may not. Just do whatever suits you best.

Eric

[Shawn Gambrel]

My last teacher i had about 8months ago didnt use scale. i ask him if he could teach me and he said they where useless. I do appreciate the link you sent ive been working on it,

[Steve Ostrander]

I want to learn everything I can about the instrument. It will take me the rest of my life. When I die, I'll stop learning.

[Shawn Gambrel]

I want to learn everything I can about the instrument. It will take me the rest of my life. When I die, I'll stop learning.

Thats the way to be :))

[GRW3]

Please let me second using the Jazzmando FFcP scale system. Knowing your scales frees you to work with the music. If you hand knows the G scale and you play a song or tune in G then it's a lot easier.

We mando players like to make sport of the fact that we don't use capos. (Capos? Capos? We don't need no stinkin' capos!) Well cording is realtively easy when the singer calls Bb or E but what about playing that break? You gonna let that guitar or banjo player just capo up and take all the glory?

There are also other virtues in knowing the scales. For instance that minor song or tune, say Wayfaring Stranger in Em. Well Em is the relative minor of G and that means you play the G scale notes E to E for an Em scale. Well if you know G, you know Em. Kind of easy open but you have to know the relation ship.

The other night a guy called "Mary Have You Heard?" in the local jam. Lots of minor chords and lots of chord changes, a minor (ha, ha) violation of jam ettiquette but he provided the sheet music. I worked the chording out but decided I'd rather do fills. So the song was in Dm. Dm is the relative minor of F so I needed an F scale, easiest done in a FFcP format. I chose one and started playing fills. Good thing because he hit a point for a break and yelled "mandolin!" It wasn't the greatest break but it worked OK.

We like to play and sing "I've Just Seen the Rock of Ages" for the same reason the Stanley Brothers made it a standard - great tune and great harmonies. This is 'modal' tune of the flatted 7th variety. (In the key of A it has several G chords.) Well for this variety of modal the appropriate scale is the one for the forth of the key, in the case of A it's the D scale played A to A. (This mode has a formal name, Mixlodian maybe, but I just quit using the term because I always have to explain it anyway.) There are other modal approaches for other forms of music for which this works too.

[Greg H.]

Unless you want to play Cryin' Holy in C#, like the CG did on Joe's Last Train. Doyle Lawson's mandolin solo is all closed position (no open strings) and he absolutely nails it.

I would think just about every mandolin picker we admire today can play scales, in one form or another.


In a similar comparison, If you ever have to play Flatt and Scruggs material, in the same key, you will probably find yourself doing a good bit of G#.:)

[Eric Taylor]

Well if you know G, you know Em. Kind of easy open but you have to know the relation ship.

Great practical application of theory, makes playing in minor keys less intimidating to think of it that way.

[journeybear]

My first instinct was to say "Nah, you don't need to learn anything. Just plug in and play. Rock out, man!" Then I realized that one of the problems with being understood in a typed medium is the lack of inflection in one's "voice," and no amount of smilies was going to be able to convey the sarcasm in that response.

So I have to say that learning scales are indeed important, even if doing them in all different keys seems unnecessary and a grind. I agree with what Allen and Pete and Santiago have mentioned, that scales help one gain "a deeper natural understanding of the fretboard." I like to think of a scale as being composed of "safe spots" on the fretboard up and down the neck where your fingers are free to go in that key. The more you become accustomed to their location up and down the neck, the easier it becomes to play without your brain getting in the way. ;) One day you may play a song with a built-in modulation, like "Midnight Moonlight," and finding ways to correlate between the keys of G and Bb on the fly is easier if you are already familiar with both keys and their common notes. (Someone say "D!") Ultimately, it's all about learning, which never ends, and understanding, which is made easier by familiarity with the tools at your command.

Speaking of understanding, spelling really helps being understood in a typed medium. It's important. I'm all for expressing oneself in the moment of inspiration, but once you've done so, it really helps to go back and check your spelling. What you're trying to say can wait until it's able to be understood by others. Write, then edit, that's my approach. Just sayin' ... :whistling:

[catmandu2]

My last teacher i had about 8months ago didnt use scale. i ask him if he could teach me and he said they where useless. I do appreciate the link you sent ive been working on it,

Of course, all music is a "scale"... whether the people playing it are aware of what they're doing, or not. Scales are the foundation of music.

Seems to me, the OP's question is "how much can I get away without learning theory?" My answer is, learn theory to the degree you desire to understand music, and improvise.

[GVD]

My last teacher i had about 8months ago didnt use scale. i ask him if he could teach me and he said they where useless...

I would think that any teacher who would make such a statement is pretty much useless. As others have noted you don't have to know scales but is sure makes things a lot easier if you do.

[fishtownmike]

My last teacher i had about 8months ago didnt use scale. i ask him if he could teach me and he said they where useless. I do appreciate the link you sent ive been working on it,
Was your teacher a professional teacher or just someone who could play and taught you songs he knew? I had a few guitar teacher like that. And eventually there was nothing more they could teach me after a short while since i learned the songs they taught me. So i had to move on. I chose to learn the scales and theory on my own. You don't need teachers for that.

[journeybear]

I agree with both of you. A teacher who says any basic component of music is useless is pretty useless :mad: and probably shouldn't be teaching. Scales are just one part of becoming familiar with your instrument - maybe not the most important, but significant and certainly not irrelevant. The more you run scales, and do them up and down the neck, the more you're going to be able to see or rather feel where the notes are and how they relate to each other and how their relations in different keys relate. Also, knowing where the notes are helps in other ways, such as figuring out chord inversions, mapping out solos, changing chord positions, etc. They all interrelate, and scales are a basic component. So, yeah, put in some time and learn them. It'll pay off in many ways. :mandosmiley:

[JeffD]

Learning scales is great (GREAT) ear training. With practice, the brain makes the connections between the scales and the finger placement. Eventually it gets to feeling intuitive - you not only know what the note in your tune or break is, but you have an intuitive feeling as to what else might work, in the scale or in the arpeggio.


I learned in the opposite way. I am predominantly a melodic player, and I remember asking "Do I need to learn chords?". I regret I didn't learn my chords early on. It was so much harder to learn them later.

Scales are a biggie, and it will never be easier than right now, with all the stuff you are working on, to learn the scales too. Doing music changes our brains, there are physical measureable changes in there - and right now your brain is not cluttered up with compromises and work arounds so now really is the time.

[JeffD]

Everything we don't know ends up biting us somewhere.

There is no substitute for learning scales. There is no substitute for learning chords. And there is so much synergy between the two - one helps the other.

[catmandu2]

Chords are derived from scales. Intervals are derived from scales. Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, and every other melody, and chord, is a series of intervals.

It probably won't hurt for a person to get a little foundational understanding in basic theory elements. A "teacher" can show you how to play some songs on a mandolin. But, Shawn, it sounds like you are ready for a teacher who has some grasp of music. You don't have to get heavy into modes and cycles, but I would feel more comfortable knowing that you are being coached by someone who has a basic understanding. If not, at least you should understand what the teacher's limitations are, so you don't waste too much time.

[Farmjazz]

The major scale is the foundation of all music theory. All chording, arpeggios, melodies, etc. are defined by the major scale. In my opinion, the "teacher" who told you that scales are useless did you a great dis-service.

Once the major scale is understood - as a pattern, as scale degrees, ( 1,2,3, etc.), and finally as the actual notes involved, you have the foundation established to move ahead to wherever you want your music to go.

As a mandolin player, you have a tremendous advantage over most other instruments. That is - all your strings are 5ths apart and you have frets. This means that patterns are transferable throughout your instrument. Learn one major scale pattern and move it all around your instrument. Tell yourself, "This is a G Major scale." Move it up three frets. Play the pattern there. Tell yourself, "This is a B flat Major scale." It won't take long and you'll start building those relationships all over your mandolin.

Of course, you don't solo using a major scale - how boring! But understanding the scale helps you to phrase your solo in the way you want. Do you want to start, or end, a phrase on the 3rd, Root, 5th, 6th, or whatever? Wind your way through every note between two degrees of the scale? At least you'll have the tools to do so.

I play sometimes with a fiddler who steadfastly refuses to learn scales. The word "theory" scares her to death for some reason. She relies on her memory for everything, and sometimes it works out fine. Overall, however, it keeps her in a place musically that she, herself, admits is frustrating and limiting.

So, go for it, you'll be glad you did.

[Patrick Hull]

I think Shawn is in a place where he is just beginning to understand music theory. I've PM'd him a bit and I thnk he is getting the idea, but like me, he's doing the best he can do to learn from scratch..I never was allowed to sing around the house and never played anything (one abortive attempt at b*njo about 25 years ago) until about 5 years ago. When you don't have someone there who can guide you along, you just have to learn from scratch. So now I think Shawn is getting it. I think he wasn't looking to be told, "No.." or being lazy, he just didn't know about scales and why they might be helpful. And, hopefully he understands that readin' and writin' are also very important. But, maybe we grownups need to be encouraging rather than too quick with the put-down. I think he can be up on the big stage some day (he does have a good voice) and hopefully he will see the value in speaking good English and knowing his scales.

[Rob Gerety]

Of course. Learn everything you can possibly learn, how could it hurt? Scales, arps, chords. All over the neck. Spend time on it every day for the rest of your life. That way you will become the best player you can be.

[Jim MacDaniel]

My last teacher i had about 8months ago didnt use scale. i ask him if he could teach me and he said they where useless...

Yes, a person should know their scales, as it will help them grow as a musician.

Plus I agree with GVD and JourneyBear that you should look for a new teacher. ;)

[Santiago]

You were smart to look for a new teacher.

[Coffeecup]

When I die, I'll stop learning.

And vice versa

[Shawn Gambrel]

I have a book that tells me what the scales are and describes it but i just cant find out what to do with it. To me this is the most confusing thing in music. I want to learn them i needs some help as much as you all described them you think i could have caught on :))

[bhGreen]

in highschool I played snare drum for marching and concert band. I was so stinkin mad when we had to learn scales on the xylophone, and were to be tested on it at the end of the year. "I play snare, what do I need this junk for?!" Well, needless to say, I dont quite remember them from playing on xylophone (except C, its so easy!) But Ill admit.. teacher was right! :))
Im still trying to learn new things, and scales are one of the easiest to practice and memorize (easier than songs, for me) and allows for more "moving around" on the fretboard.

Start learning them, at first it probably wont make sense, then one day youll be playing a song and go.."hey.... wait a minute?!" and it will all just click, and it will make so much sense. Trust me friend. You won't regret it. Once you start learning the different scales, you'll see the pattern.

p.s dont be afraid to google some off the wall scales either.. like Fm (reminds me of snake charming haha!)

[catmandu2]

I have a book that tells me what the scales are and describes it but i just cant find out what to do with it.

Shawn, pick a scale...say, in G. Just fool around and make up melodies using only notes in the scale. Throw in a few arpeggios, quote some familiar melodies, have fun. Try to make music. Experiment.

[Mandoist]

Very short list of top shelf players I've witnessed warming up with scales (or some variation of such):

Les Paul
Jethro Burns
Chet Atkins
Mark Knopfler
Kevin Eubanks
Tiny Moore
David Grisman
Stephane Grappelli
Mark O'Connor

...and many, many, many more.

Learn 'em, learn to love 'em and use 'em often.

[David Lloyd]

I started making practice sheets until I figured out it wasn't necessary. I somehow figured this out with the FFcP patterns. Here is the G Scale practice sheet I made for myself. Notice how the patterns repeat! Hope it helps.48470

[robertson]

Well, suppose you want to play in several different keys. You would be better off knowing what notes are commonly used in, say, B flat. The most commonly used notes are the "do-re-mi" of the B flat scale. If you know your B flat scale, where all the notes fall on the fingerboard, you might be less likely to hit an E natural "clam," and would instead play E flat.

And, really, the more you know, the better player you become. I am always wondering about posts about "why do I have to learn to read music?" or "why do I need to practice with a metronome?" or some such. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but getting more knowledge and skill and experience is only going to help in your development.

I don't think most mandolinists have to learn scales in every possible key, but honestly, what does it hurt? You may never play a break in C sharp in 50 years of mandolin playing, but knowing that you could if called upon play a C sharp scale and follow a melody in that key is certainly a positive.
nailed it! I don't know how many times it has hurt me not to play c minor
e flat ect... scales, theory will be a blessing, trust me... I am playing catch
up now because I concentrated on the basic major scales... lesson learned!

[journeybear]

This might help - G major scale notes to the 15th fret:

-xx-x-xx-x-x-xx-x
-xx-x-x-xx-x-xx-x
-x-xx-x-xx-x-x-xx
-x-xx-x-x-xx-x-xx

Apply liberally and repeatedly! :mandosmiley:

[David Surette]

Should i learn my scales or not worry about them.

Yes...both...

Maybe good to start with G and D...

[groveland]

Yes, do learn scales. And chords.

We have a tendency to talk about chords and scales as two different things, when in fact they are the same thing. Scales are chords strtetched horizontally, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Chords are scales stacked vertically 1 3 5 7 2 4 6.

We learn triads first, and then add the sevenths, and then the extensions, and alterations - And discover in the final analysis those were all just fragments of a big seven note chord we call a scale.

Collect 'em all.

[mandolirius]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ostrander
I want to learn everything I can about the instrument. It will take me the rest of my life. When I die, I'll stop learning.




Thats the way to be :))

If that's really what you believe, then why all this angst about learning scales? I'm going to disagree with the vast majority here and say don't bother learning scales. Later on, maybe years from now, you may change your mind but at this stage, if you can't see the use or just really don't want to, then don't.

[GVD]

Start learning them, at first it probably wont make sense, then one day youll be playing a song and go.."hey.... wait a minute?!" and it will all just click, and it will make so much sense. Trust me friend. You won't regret it. Once you start learning the different scales, you'll see the pattern....

Exactly!

[JeffD]

Nobody ever learned scales and then said, "darn, well that sure wasn't worth it."

On the other hand if learning scales is a huge speed bump in what is supposed to be a fun activity, well I could make an arguement for going slow and taking small bites.

If you have serious goals to make a life in music however, my advice would be to learn them, and a bunch of other stuff too, and not just because you need to learn scales but because there is lots of hard stuff to learn and you can't let it intimidate you.

[Norm Buck]

This is a follow-up for a question Shawn asked me in another forum here...

"Where did you find the break for The Mountain?" (Steve Earle & the Del McCoury Band)

I didn't "find" the break for The Mountain. I have the mp3 on my computer and I really like the song, so I decided to learn it. First off, I Googled the lyrics and chords, then copied and pasted them to a file (Open Office) on the computer. My 2nd step was to learn the chord progression to the point where I could play (chords) along with the band. (all the while listening to how the instruments and vocals come together to make the song) My 3rd step was to learn how to pick the melody of the vocal part of the song. The melody of the vocals form the basis of any "instrumental leads" I am striving to learn. The fourth step of the process was to learn the intro and outro of the song in order to put together something that I can play in front of others and be happy that it seems complete. Step # 5 that I am working on now is to listen to that talented Ronnie McCoury and figure out how I can play a shadow of what he plays.... Norm

So, relating this new thread to what Shawn & I have been talking about already, regarding "The Mountain"... for me to go beyond 'learning by rote" i.e. trying to copy what I hear on the mp3, I need to learn what I think is the "D" scale. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The intro chords for this song are D, Bm, D, Em, G, D. There is a turnaround at the end of the verse and in the chorus that brings in an A chord.

In yet another thread, I was directed to www.jazzmando.com (courtesy of Mr. Eschliman) for some instructional material on playing arpeggios, double stops and FFcP Moveable Scale Patterns in several keys including the key of D which I need for "The Mountain". I'm thinking that is my next resource for practicing the song and learning how to "feel" and "hear" the song. Maybe someone who knows the 'net better than I could show Shawn where that is. I am another one who has no teacher, trying to figure it out on my own. I cannot say how grateful I am to have a resource like the Mandolin Cafe.

Norm

[journeybear]

I applaud you for your efforts to learn that, and taking the time to describe the steps you've taken. I think you'll learn more from doing that than trying to find some easy way or short cut. There are things you learn along the way to learning a particular thing that you may not have been expecting to but can use in other ways. Also, the next time you tackle a song you'll have an easier time of it, because of the methods you used before and the increased familiarity wth using them. I'll never understand why some people always ask, "Do you know where I can find tab for that?' when they really should just do what you said or find some other way to figure it out - like listen to it over and over and pick it out - you know, put in the time like everybody else has. Especially when someone says that in response to a member posting something he or she has just recorded and uploaded, and of course there ain't no tab. :disbelief: I don't know whether to laugh :)) or cry :crying: or hurt somebody. :mad: Learning how to learn was the most important and useful thing I learned in high school.

[Alex Orr]

How would you play without knowing them? Seriously, scales provide order for the fretboard, giving you various roadmaps to construct solos, melodic phrases, and even chords. Otherwise the thing is just a disorderly mess of random sounds.

[Alex Orr]

My last teacher i had about 8months ago didnt use scale. i ask him if he could teach me and he said they where useless. I do appreciate the link you sent ive been working on it,
Your teacher sounds worthless. He may be a mighty fine picker and a good all around person, but he sounds like a truly lousy teacher.

I'd recommend Greg Horne's beginning and intermediate mando books. Also, Niles Hokanen's pentatonic mandolin. Start with the Horne books and then give Niles' thing a run through. You'll learn scales, and more importantly, you'll learn how powerful that knowledge can be for your playing.

[re simmers]

I recommend The Mel Bay Deluxe Mandolin Book by Ray Valla. There's a bunch of scale patterns that were very helpful to me. Learn them in different keys. Practice them with a metronome, starting out slow. Then learn to play smaller parts of the scales in breaks. Also, learn them in closed positions. If so, you should be able to play Doyle Lawson's "Cryin' Holy" break in C#.

Yes, you should know scales.

Bob

[journeybear]

Seriously, scales provide order for the fretboard, giving you various roadmaps to construct solos, melodic phrases, and even chords. Otherwise the thing is just a disorderly mess of random sounds.

OK, so you don't like modern jazz ... :grin:

[250sc]

"How would you play without knowing them? Seriously, scales provide order for the fretboard, giving you various roadmaps to construct solos, melodic phrases, and even chords. Otherwise the thing is just a disorderly mess of random sounds."

Do you mean to tell me that there aren't great players who can't tell you what scale their playing? If so, I can tell you that you're wrong. There are lots of players who don't approach music as intellectually as knowing what scale they're playing. There ear keeps them from playing " a disorderly mess of random sounds".

When I'm playing I never think in terms of scales, just tones (sounds, not note names) relative to each other. On the other hand if you were to ask me to play a scale I probably know it and can play it for you but when I'm playing I only think in terms of tones relative to whatever else is happening in the music or whatever else comes to mind. When a tone comes to mind I can normally find it on the fingerboard without thinking "what scale is this".

PS. If you want to play jazz, I've found that arpegios with added chromatic tones make my playing sound more "jazzy" than scales do.

[Santiago]

Good point Catmandu! Arpeggios can be more important than the scales themselves. The first, third, fifth and eight note of the scale, played together, give you the chord. Played separately, they give you the "arppegio" with which you always hear opera singers warm up. Do, Mi, So, Do... These are important LANDING notes. If you play a solo, these are essentially the notes you want to stop on to get back into the melody. You can play a lot of wrong notes in between, but if you land on your "feet" very few in the audience will realize it.

[Dan Margolis]

There are definitely genius players out there who don't know their scales. I don't know who to say on mandolin, but I know that guitarist David Grier, an unbelievable player by any measure, didn't learn from scales. Then, of course, there are genius players like Chris Thile, who most definitely know their scales, up, down, and sideways. I believe that most players should learn scales, but beware: some folks who over-rely on scales end up sounding like they're playing the typewriter. Scales are powerful tools, but they are not music. BTW, your former teacher sounds like an idiot, IMHO.

[JeffD]

How would you play without knowing them? Seriously, scales provide order for the fretboard, giving you various roadmaps to construct solos, melodic phrases, and even chords. Otherwise the thing is just a disorderly mess of random sounds.

Alex I had the same thought. But I have met more than a few musicians who have memorized a bucket of chords, developed a good enough ear to know which chords to play and when, developed a few strumming techniques, and get to the point where they can get pretty good at backing up their own singing or supporting a soloist or a group, and still don't know or care much about scales.

They are chord machines it sounds like to me - they approach every tune as a series of chords to learn and once they know the chords they figure they know everything relevant about the tune.

It has been my experience that I know many more guitar players like this than any other instrument.

While you and I know how much they might be missing in terms of real musical playing - hopefully its the front door for them and in time they will swim out to the edges of musical expression from there.

At the very least its great to have a chord machine friend to back you up on a solo.

[doc holiday]

David Grier is absolutely an alien guitar player. One of the goals of scales IMO is to know where all the notes are relative to one another on the instrument. David G has spent so so much time with a guitar in his hand that he is an absolute master of the instrument. It shows in his playing. You can hear it in every break. Scales are one of the ways that lead there.

[journeybear]

Good ol' wikipedia! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mandolin_fretboard.png)

Like the old commercial said, "It's in there!"

[Bob Andress]

As a beginner with no previous musical training I can say that learning scales has been a big help in allowing me to pick tunes that I know by ear. I can do it much faster with scales I know than the ones I haven't learned yet. And once you learn them your fingers will just know them.

250sc - This caught my attention " When I'm playing I never think in terms of scales, just tones (sounds, not note names) relative to each other."
What is a scale but tones relative to each other, no? You may not have sat down and went through the exercises like many here suggest but it sounds to me like you learned your scales. You've proven it can be done, and no one should doubt that. I'm just not sure that every young beginner will have as easy of a time with it as you. I've found and picked out scales on my own without knowing the name. However, I make every attempt to find out what scale and notes I've just played as I feel it's only a building block or springboard that helps me get to the next level.

Shawn - you may be one of those lucky folks that can pick it up nice and fast without ever opening a book loaded with scales. Or, you may be one of those people that wishes he had taken the advice of others back in 2009. I'll be honest and say that, since you took the time to ask the question, it may be wise to choose the latter.

[re simmers]

Shawn, the original poster wrote:
"How. I can play some by ear. ive played almost 2 years and its not all there like i cant do breaks and stuff but what does it do fro you."

250sc wrote:
"Do you mean to tell me that there aren't great players who can't tell you what scale their playing? If so, I can tell you that you're wrong. There are lots of players who don't approach music as intellectually as knowing what scale they're playing. There ear keeps them from playing " a disorderly mess of random sounds".

If Shawn has played for nearly 2 years and he's not getting it, he's like me.....NOT one of those players who can get it without some other help.

Try whatever! Use whatever works.

David Grier grew up playing guitar and he's a world class musician. I think David knew scales before he could walk........but didn't realize it..........and maybe he still doesn't.

Someone who starts playing later in life.......without being exposed to other musicians.........without knowing what "sounds right"..........will benefit from scales. They will also benefit from private lessons, dvd instructional stuff, a metronome, a weekly jam, and whatever other tool they have access to.

Bob

[Jkf_Alone]

I couldn't imagine playing with others without knowing AT LEAST scales and chords for the keys of C, G, D, A, E, and F. On mandolin, everything is symmetrical and repeats itself. A week or two of concentrated study for you should give you a working knowledge of scales.

What did your old teacher suggest you do if you are playing in a jam, and someone calls out "Will the Circle be Unbroken" in F?

[250sc]

Bob,

You're right that scales are just notes that have a specific relationship to each other and that I know my scales but I learned theory as a way of explaining to others what I hear in my head. Everyone learns differently but I only learn theory to explain to others what I do by ear. If my ear says play that note next I don't care if it's in a particular scale and it probably won't be in the scale but will be chromatic notes between the scale tones.

Can learning scales allow you to play better? Maybe, maybe not. Lets look at people who only read music all their lives (classically trained musicians come to mind). They know all their scales and can read music as easily as they read the newspaper but even with this knowledge many (not all) can't improvise and jamming involves improvising. Both knowing scales and being able to improvise are usefull bits of knowledge and they can go hand in hand but you don't necessarily need one to do the other.

So, if someone asks me should they learn and practice scales I'd say sure but realise that you can play scales really well but not be able to apply them to playing "music" or improvising. Does practicing scales prevent you from being able to improvise? No, absolutely not.

Bottom line.....try everything and do what works for you.

[Dan Margolis]

I know my scales on mandolin and guitar, but if I did not know scales, I would learn every melody, solo, riff, and break that I could. Of course, people who know scales do this too.

[JeffD]

Can learning scales allow you to play better? Maybe, maybe not. Lets look at people who only read music all their lives (classically trained musicians come to mind). They know all their scales and can read music as easily as they read the newspaper but even with this knowledge many (not all) can't improvise and jamming involves improvising. Both knowing scales and being able to improvise are usefull bits of knowledge and they can go hand in hand but you don't necessarily need one to do the other.



It is all needed. All of it. There are many players who can improvise and jam with ease, and yet they have to routinely go over and review all the tunes in their head because they cannot read music and so have no way of writing out all the tunes they know.

Learning scales doesn't substitute for learning to read music doesn't substitute for developing a good ear doesn't substitute for learning chords doesn't substitute for learning how to play up the neck....


Everything you don't know limits you as a musician. The extent to which you are comfortable with those limitations is, of course, up to you.

[farmerjones]

Yea, i just read the David Grier article in FBJ. David learned so early it was pretty much absorbtion like how kids learn a language. Something that is second nature isn't like not knowing. IMHO in fact just the opposite.
On topic, but not on topic.

[JeffD]

and jamming involves improvising. .

I'm sorry, I am not trying to be a nit picky jerk, but, well I have already probably succeeded so this increment won't kill me...

Jamming may or may not involve improvising. BG, Jazz, Blues, sure. But OT, Traditional Irish, New England fiddle tunes, French Canadian fiddle tunes,1950s country sing alongs, folk sing alongs, and other kinds of jams don't much include improvisation, and often don't much appreciate it.

[250sc]

LOL, Jeff,

You don't sound like a jerk at all. You'll have to try harder.

When I think of jamming I think in terms of playing material that it's likely I've never played before. If I have to play the same melody as 10 other people I'll probably start playing a harmony the third time through. If negitive energy comes my way for that than I'll apologize, smile and leave. But, taking that back to the original subject......If your just going to play the same thing as everyone else you don't need to know your scales. You just need to know the melody. You don't need to know what scale the melody is made from since you won't go away from the melody anyway.

I think the bottom line is that we don't disagree very much. As you continue playing and learning music you should do whatever opens the next door for you. If you feel scales will do that, than do that. I know that modes are pushed alot for playing jazz but I prefer the sound of playing the changes using arpegios to outline them, while also coming up with my own melodies based on those arps. Maybe later I'll decide that I have to think more scale oriented or modes based off of scales to open the next door. Stranger things have happened.

[journeybear]

Sometimes it's useful to revisit the OP. All he said was:


Should i learn my scales or not worry about them.

I think you should learn your scales AND not worry about them! ;) ... :grin: ... :mandosmiley: ... :whistling:

[nickster60]

I do play scales. I don't go crazy and play scales all day. When I first started with the mandolin when I learned a new song I played the scale of the key the song is in. It helps tie it all together.

Theory is important but it is also important to know nice to know a bunch of tunes. I guess you will have to find the balance that is right for you. Most of all have fun that is what this is all about.

If it isnt fun you might as well poke yourself in the eye. You know that wont be fun.

[Scotti Adams]

Scales are like ABC's..you cant spell w/o them and you cant play w/o scales. Certain scales lend themselves to certain sounds and music thats where the fun comes in.

[250sc]

" you cant play w/o scales."

Agreed, but you don't have to know what scale your playing. If you do....cool. If you don't but can still play.....cool.

Let's use your ABC's analogy. You can still speak and communicate even if you don't know your ABCs.

[Patrick Hull]

J'Bear: I know you're brilliant, but I'll be darned if I can make heads or tails of that diagram up at the top of the page. The one that looks like: xx xx xx x xx xx x x x x
x xx x x xxx xxx x x xx

Is this the secret key to mandolin playing that you all have been hiding from me all these years, finally divulged by accident? If so, I'm no better off......

[journeybear]

That's my effort at a representation of how a G scale lays out on the fingerboard, with the x's showing where your fingers go, the "safe spots" I'd referred to earlier. So -x means skip a fret, play the next fret for the next note at that point in the scale (full step), xx means play the next fret for the next note (half step). I later found the fretboard diagram at wikipedia; by correlating the two it should be apparent what a scale looks like.

[bobby bill]

Agreed, but you don't have to know what scale your playing. If you do....cool. If you don't but can still play.....cool.

Let's use your ABC's analogy. You can still speak and communicate even if you don't know your ABCs.

Let me get this right - your position is that if you can speak and communicate without knowing your ABC's . . . . cool? Well, for starters you would be missing out on the opportunity to read and contribute to this wonderful discussion (something akin to a jam session) that has gone on for eighty-something posts in responding to a question that could have been answered in a single word.

[mandroid]

By page one it seemed the teacher Shawn spoke to, was covering up their lack of knowledge of theory
by demeaning the knowledge they were incurious to learn .

Play everything in C major and you don't have to know how to spell scales, in sharps and flats,
on the right notes .

Mid summer Scandinavian Festival , here, this one old guy, on accordion,
plays all his Scandanavian dance tunes in C , all on the white keys ..

.. for the benefit of the accompanying guitar player, my friend Steve, Announces each time ,

"this one .. is in C" ;)

:popcorn:

[catmandu2]

Hold on, hold on...the OP didn't say he wasn't switching to banjo... Don't need no stinkin scales there ;)... just a bunch of 16th notes.

[Patrick Hull]

Bobby Bill....Not so sure that this thread, which has gone on for 80+ posts, when it could have been answered in a single word, is exactly an argument in favor of learning your ABC's....lol....Maybe an argument in favor of learning to use one's ABC's more skillfully....myself included. I fear that we have sent young Shawn into hiding for the winter.

[catmandu2]

Sure. Such succinctity certainly should surrender such insipid speculation (concerning scales).


My spouse considers such perseveration concerning said subjects, insufferable... So, she insists I cease :(

[250sc]

Bobby Bill,

LOL. I don't think reading this thread will effect my ability to play music. I could sing 4 part harmony before I could read anything (music or english). I grew up in a home where there was always music coming from every room in the house and the radio was never turned on so I know you can play music without understanding music on an intelectual level. You listen and reproduce what you heard.

Now, some 50 years later, I understand how music works but as I learned music theory I'd say to myself "Oh, I've done that for years without knowing that there was a rule for it". I'd play chord substitutions without knowing the theory behind them but my ear told me that "yes, that works and it sounds cooler than the other way" but like I've stated before do what works for you. For me, when I'm playing I don't think theory, I think melody (single notes) and harmony (more than one note) as tones to be reproduced and not as rules to adhear to.

Do I miss out on material that is written in notation? Yes, but if it catches my interest I'll listen to it and work it out. No understanding of scales are needed (though like I said, I do understand them.)

[bobby bill]

250SC - I understand your argument. And in fact, I am somewhat envious of people such as yourself who have a much more innate musical ability than I have.

Still, if someone were to ask, "Is it a good thing to be able to see?", I don't think the answer is, "It works for some people but I know this man who can't see and he is just as capable as the next person." I think the answer is that it is a good thing to be able to see.

[250sc]

bobbybill,

Ok, it's good to be able to see. But being able to see (or knowing your scales) isn't a prerequsite to being able to play music. Hearing, on the other hand.....

The sharing of ideas has been fun but I have nothing more to contribute.

Have a great day all.

[Scotti Adams]

Look at it this way..and string of notes you run together is essentially a "scale"..so Yes..you need to know scales...wether one knows the name of such scales is a different story...hell...I dont know the names of half the scales I may use.

[KCrook]

I have found that learning scales has enhanced my experience with the Mandolin in several ways. First, I use the standard major scale, arpeggio, and pentatonic scales to work out tags, fills and runs. I also find that running through the various scales is an excellent way to work on my left hand fretting technique, as well as my right hand picking technique. And, scales are a great way to "warm up," and can provide additional improvisational patterns and positions that you might not have considered so you can add to your breaks.

Is it "mandatory," to know scales to play an instrument? No, but it can help in any number of ways to obtain more out of the instrument.

So, yes, I would suggest spending the time to learn the scales. :mandosmiley:

[Glassweb]

if you want to play mandolin like Andy Statman or Chris Thile then yes, scales are important. if you want to play mandolin like Bill Monroe or Yank Rachell, no... scales are not so important...

[250sc]

Glassweb,

I thought of bringing up Mr. Monroe (even wrote about it but deleted it) but was afraid of being lynched.

Better run. LOL

[doc holiday]

Good observation Glassweb. I'd put Bill Monroe in the category w/ David Grier. He played things the way no one else did. He knew the mandolin. Love how he played all over that instrument. Scales are, as mentioned, not necessarily music, but they are a great way to learn the fretboard part of the instrument.
Everything comes down to a choice I guess.....you don't have to learn spelling or punctuation either...

[journeybear]

However you want to play, you've still got to know where the notes are and where to put your fingers. Maybe not for every key, but for the key the song you're playing is in. And it wouldn't hurt to know what a scale looks and feels and sounds like so you can move that pattern to fit all the keys the song you play are in.

BTW, I'm glad someone corrected the spelling in the thread title. The real problem, though, is the singular-plural correspondence. It should be either "Should a person know his or her scales?" or Should people know their scales?" Oh, and remember - questions should end with a question mark, shouldn't they?

Yeah, I know it's a minority opinion. But communication and understanding depend on clarity and accuracy.

[chip]

Bill would be rolling over in his grave over this posting...geez...should I learn my scales...duh

[Mike Bunting]

Bill would be rolling over in his grave over this posting...geez...should I learn my scales...duh

I expect that he is playing his mandolin, he wouldn't have any time for a thread like this.

[journeybear]

Yeah, as far as he's concerned, this ain't no part of nothin' ... :))

[re simmers]

What would you call the first half of Bill's mandolin break on "Santa Claus?" Is that a pentatonic scale? If so, did anyone tell Bill?

Bob

[JeffD]

if you want to play mandolin like Bill Monroe or Yank Rachell, no... scales are not so important...

I don't know what you mean:

Do you mean that you don' hear them playing scales in their music?

Scales don't play a part in their music?

You don't need to learn scales to play their music?

They didn't need to learn scales to make their music?

They didn't learn scales in their own musical development and look what they can do?


My respone to each of these would be different.


Actually, if you want to emulate any known player, you can go the direct route and just learn to make the same sounds they do, without learning any music. It will take longer to emulate some than others, but you certainly don't HAVE to learn what they have learned to play what they play. That is one approach I suppose.

And assuming some success in the emulation, you can become known as "Almost as good as so and so." :grin:

Not for me. :mandosmiley:

[250sc]

Jeez, Of course music is made from scales but scales aren't music!

I'm no bluegrass historian but it is my guess that if you were to ask Mr. Monroe if you should practice scales to play bluegrass he'd look at you like your crazy. (I could be wrong since I never met him)

You can practice scales for 8 hrs a day for years and still not be able to come up with an original melodic idea or play a song by ear.

[catmandu2]

You can practice scales for 8 hrs a day for years and still not be able to come up with an original melodic idea or play a song by ear.

While the latter is not dependent on the former, I'd say the former increases the likelihood of the latter, exponentially. But I would add the caveat: wise study of scales, so that they are not seen as an end but as a means (I think this piece is missing from too many folks' pedagogy, and where a competent teacher can help).

I'm confident that all of the players I enjoy listening to have practiced their scales inside and out...even if it is only one blues scale.

[250sc]

sigh.

I'm done waisting my time on this exercise in futility.

Bye

[catmandu2]

sigh.

I'm done waisting my time on this exercise in futility.

Bye

That's probably how many folks feel about studying theory ;)

[250sc]

Theory has never been my problem. Talking in circles is frustrating though.

Later

[journeybear]

People are people, and they're human, and mammals, so knowing scales isn't a life or death matter, as such. Reptiles, however, HAVE to know their scales. :cool:

[Jim MacDaniel]

sigh.

I'm done waisting my time on this exercise in futility.

Bye

Exercise in futility: any thread that begins its life as, or morphs into, a discussion about the perceived benefits or uselessness of learning theory, reading standard notation, etc.

See also: waste of time, falling on deaf ears, spinning your wheels, political discourse.

[catmandu2]

People are people, and they're human, and mammals, so knowing scales isn't a life or death matter, as such. Reptiles, however, HAVE to know their scales. :cool:

We could have resolved this subject on page one with such pith!

[catmandu2]

Exercise in futility: any thread that begins its life as, or morphs into, a discussion about the perceived benefits or uselessness of learning theory, reading standard notation, etc.

See also: waste of time, falling on deaf ears, spinning your wheels, political discourse.

Godwin's Law should include a proviso on the disputation of theory ;)

[JeffD]

You can practice scales for 8 hrs a day for years and still not be able to come up with an original melodic idea or play a song by ear.

Sure, if you want to. :grin:

[journeybear]

I'm going out caroling soon. If I see Godwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)I'll wish him a merry little Christmas. :mandosmiley:

[catmandu2]

What would you call the first half of Bill's mandolin break on "Santa Claus?" Is that a pentatonic scale? If so, did anyone tell Bill?

Bob

See...even Santa uses scales.

:redface:

[chasgrav]

With all due respect, I wouldn't return to a teacher who felt that scales are useless. You may choose not to make them a major focus, but to deny their importance is, well, a choice that few make. :))

[Tristan Arnett]

I hate to like jack your thread, but since its about scales I thought I would post here. I'm learning to kick off Julie Ann, and I'm playing it in b. so can I just play notes from the b, and e major scale, to create a kickoff?

[JeffD]

Exercise in futility: any thread that begins its life as, or morphs into, a discussion about the perceived benefits or uselessness of learning theory, reading standard notation, etc.

See also: waste of time, falling on deaf ears, spinning your wheels, political discourse.


I know what you mean about wheel spinning, and waste of time, but I think the OP, and those lurkers who refer to this now and in the future, are getting a lot of good points of view for their money.

Really all that we can hope for, that we are heard and that we are understood. Convincing people of something was never one of my skills, and the ease with which my mind can be changed depends on when you catch me. :grin:

Besides, it is kind of fun, arguing about scales, notation, capos, pinky planting, and whether my bad habits should rather be called idiosyncratic features of my playing. More fun than what I should be doing right now, which is baking and frosting some 500 Christmas cookies.

[250sc]

Come on guys. Invoke the powers of practiceing scales and help the man out with Sally Ann.

Tell him what notes he can play over an unknown kick off in the key of B and we'll see if something "musical" and genre appropriate comes out of it.

[catmandu2]

I hate to like jack your thread, but since its about scales I thought I would post here. I'm learning to kick off Julie Ann, and I'm playing it in b. so can I just play notes from the b, and e major scale, to create a kickoff?

Yes. And its relative minor, blues and pentatonic scales too. Season to taste.

[Patrick Hull]

My question: If a person chooses not to "learn scales," and/or "practice scales," a la Mr Monroe apparently...... if someone says we're going to play a song in the key of B, how would you know what notes to play? Would you just pluck at random each time until you hit some that sounded good to your ear? Seems that would be a huge waste of time. Wouldn't you at least have to know where the notes are in that key? Perhaps you could give them different names, or choose, out of deference to Mr Monroe, not to learn their names, but, in essence wouldn't you have to know what notes are in what key and their relative pitch ?

[catmandu2]

I doubt if many blues musicians knew what notes they were playing (I usually don't know most of the names of the notes I'm playing either, but I'm generally aware of their intervallic relation. Numeric nomenclature is more efficient, anyway), but of course players know where the notes are--it's one of the things that makes their playing listenable. Most folks probably know the name of the key they're playing in (or what chords they're playing with)--and therefore, the scales involved--but many more probably don't know why. I don't know anything about Bill Monroe's method of study, but I do know that he used scales when he played (duh).

Seems that the debate is whether to practice technical exercises such as scales. Songs can be played and music made without it, but I've never personally encountered anyone serious about music who didn't emphasize such technical study.

As a bassist, that's 99% of what we practice--scales and their derivations, that is. For non-bass players, learn theory to the degree that you want to understand, communicate with and about music.

[Patrick Market]

For the last day or so, I have read and read and simply said: :popcorn:

A musically-inclined co-worker just looked over my shoulder, inquired what I was reading, and said "Pffft, just learn your ***** scales." She's blunt, but has a point.

[Tristan Arnett]

Ok, so you could sort of look at it instead of a chord progression, play a scale progression, when your playing a break, and the chord chnges to c, start playing notes from c major, changes to g, switch over to g major. Is that the right way to look at it? Because I know my scales im just not sure how to use them.

[catmandu2]

Tristan, spend some time over in the theory forum--your answers will be there:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=56

But generally, you're on the right track by thinking about scales rather than chords -- chords are made from scales. As with the alphabet, certain letter combinations form certain words that "look right." Similarly, certain notes sound right with certain chords (the chords are made with the notes from a given scale, so playing notes from that scale "sound right." This is all just theoretical until you hear it: if you have a tape recorder, record yourself playng a chord, then play with the notes in that scale, and others as well to see what sounds right to you.

[250sc]

If a person chooses not to practice scales they might learn a bunch of genre specific licks (bluegrass, jazz, blues, whatever) that are in closed positions so they can be played in any key without thinking about what the note names are or even what key you're in. This way you learn the vocabulary (licks) of the specific genre of music. As you continue playing those licks you will change them and apply them differently so they turn into your own musical ideas based on the licks you learned. You will also be playing something that doesn't likely sound like running up and down all the steps of a particular scale (even though the notes in the lick are in a particular scale).

I don't think practicing scales is a bad thing. They just don't teach you phrasing and a musical vocabulary.

That is one way that will likely get you playing music with others in a short amount of time.

If you spend 5 weeks playing scales you'll learn patterns and develope dexterity and coordination. If you spend 5 weeks learning generic musical phrases you can use to play over any song you'll learn patterns, develope dexterity and coordination and lean a musical vocabulary.

The only reason I haven't dropped this (like I promised) is I've showned people scales they can play over specific chord changes and it always sounds like scales but when I show them 3 or 4 licks (phrases or whatever you want to call them) that they can use over those same changes they catch on quicker because they are learning a vocabulary that sounds appropriate to the music in question.

[catmandu2]

Of course. But much has to do with the type of music one aspires to: I don't know that Johnny Cash or Jimmy Rogers prqcticed scales, but it's essential for the jazz player. Jazz isn't "lick" based, but rathr improv-based, so knowing what you're doing--where you're going and able to communicate about it--is a prerequisite.

When I was young, I learned a lot of licks--it's typically what young folks want to learn. I wish I had concentrated on my scales more.

[EdHanrahan]

... if someone says we're going to play a song in the key of B, how would you know what notes to play?

One great thing about fretted instruments (compared to, say, keys like a piano, or buttons like a sax), is that once you get one set of musical ideas UP THE NECK, you don't need to know every note as you play it; you just need to know each note's relation to the root of the key and/or chord.

If you know the A scale, chords, and licks IN CLOSED POSITION and someone wants to play in B, just move it all up 2 frets and make believe you're playing in A.

Simplistic yes, but it works for me.

[250sc]

It's great that scales are opening up a richer understanding of music for you but those licks you learned gave you a musical vocabulary and allowed you to play with others which in turn affected your musical growth. If you went to jam with them without a vocabulary you would probably not be invited back.

There are many roads to achieve whatever your goals are as a musician and a human. You take the ones that you feel work for you but the other roads can be just as rich and rewarding.

[catmandu2]

It's great that scales are opening up a richer understanding of music for you but those licks you learned gave you a musical vocabulary and allowed you to play with others which in turn affected your musical growth. If you went to jam with them without a vocabulary you would probably not be invited back.

There are many roads to achieve whatever your goals are as a musician and a human. You take the ones that you feel work for you but the other roads can be just as rich and rewarding.

I wouldn't presume to tell people the kind of music to like (well...okay, jazz ;)) -- just some of the more efficient routes to get there.

[Rob Gerety]

When I was young, I learned a lot of licks--it's typically what young folks want to learn. I wish I had concentrated on my scales more.

Me too.

[250sc]

Jazz is impov-based as is some (much of?) bluegrass but all the greats have fallen back to licks or motifs. Listen to any instrument (mulitple players) playing through ii,V,Is and you'll find phrases that are commonly used. Django played licks. They are vehicles to get from one place to another. Any jazz player who tells you they never repeat themselves are fooling themselves.

[Rob Gerety]

Any jazz musician who does nothing but repeat tired worn out old licks better keep his day job.

[catmandu2]

[Q

[catmandu2]

licks...They are vehicles to get from one place to another.

Yes, but it's one place and another that makes it interesting..

[Dan Johnson]

I wouldn't spend too much time on scales if I didn't know what I was looking for... learn some melodies first... it's more fun anyways than trying to get on an augmented scale or something... and yes I guess I have read this entire thread...

[250sc]

Rob, I never said to strive for tired worn out licks but I can't do anything about you mis-interpreting my statements.

Catmandu, agreed. How it's done is the key.

LOL. This horse was pretty dead a few pages ago. I promise (again) to stop kicking it.

Have a great holiday.

[GRW3]

I am disturbed by some of the implications that Bill Monroe was not technically accomplished. If you watch some of the YouTube videos of his you can see he played in a raw style but not primative. As I recall reading in Can't You Hear Me Calling, he spent many hours woodsheding his craft as a youth and as a young man. Probably enough to hit the 10000 hour expertise mark before the Monroe Brothers much less the Bluegrass boys. He could play both mandolin and guitar with skill.

Perhaps this idea comes from the discussions from the multitude of Bluegrass Boys about how he taught them the songs and the tunes. Well Bill wasn't teaching people how to play, he was teaching them how to play Bluegrass.

[doc holiday]

Boy this horse hasn't been flogged....it's well beyond that.....but the latest comments have been some of the most interesting. George....I personally don't thank anyone even hinted that Big Mon didn't know the instrument. I'm with you. He certainly did not display any tendency towards chromatic or scalar linearity. Thankfully, before I picked up stringed instruments I studied piano and spent many boring, but in hindsight useful hours, practicing scales as demanded of me. Not many of us want to learn, we all wanted to have mastered something. I'm not going to say another word about scales. On the mandolin front, I know a builder of mandolins and guitars who was a saddle maker for twenty years before he started building instruments. In a relatively short period of time he made some great instruments. Whether you want to play like Chris Thile, or Wayne Gretzky (Canadian hockey player for non-hockey fans) or Django Reinhardt.....you can spend focused time, or you can just play.....

[EarlG]

Poor Shawn probably has no idea whether he should learn scales or not by now.

[catmandu2]

Poor Shaun probably has no idea whether he should learn scales or not by now.

He's probably moved on to five other things. ;)

But now that HOCKEY has been introduced, I'm in for another six pages!

[250sc]

What mandolin and pick should Shaun buy?

Please discuss.

[Scott Holt]

Well just depends, It is a little known factoid that Hitler never played scales- you know how it turned out for him. Don't be like him, learn your scales!

[Mike Bunting]

What mandolin and pick should Shaun buy?

Please discuss.
:))
and he should add a metronome to that list!

[catmandu2]

Well just depends, It is a little known factoid that Hitler never played scales- you know how it turned out for him. Don't be like him, learn your scales!

Finally. And it only took six and a half pages..

I still say there should be a "Godwin's clause for ....." For example: G's Law-for musicians: wherein matters of a technical nature--say, theory, can be rehashed ad infinitum, necessarily in conjunction with Hitler and/or nazis., etc. Perhaps a Godwin's Claus, wherein nazis will be discussed in conjuntion with, elves. Or, Godwin's Claus-Blue Christmas, where we will touch upon santas, nazis, and Elvis..?

Besides, I think it's quite clear that, no, you don't need no stinkin scales. As evidenced, here:

[mandocrucian]

to quote Roy Orbison....

http://www.ephblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/fat-lady-sings.jpg
It's over......

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/mortarboard/opera.jpg
It's over.....

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2008/05/28/divine.jpg
It's OOOO-VER!

[catmandu2]

And, yet another fine example of the unnecessity of scale, as Niles adroitly provides.

[jim_n_virginia]

I was talking with my friend and former teacher Herschel Sizemore a while back and I asked him if scales are important. He told me they are a waste of time of course he's coming from a strictly BG background and plays completely by ear.

He said to just learn the tunes and play them long enough and you will find a commonality in all the tunes. I have found this to be largely true. If you know the fret board well enough you can pretty much play in any key or mode you may not know what key it is or what mode but your ear will tell you if it sounds good.

Of course I don't know if this method would work in an orchestral or jazz setting but for picking like most of us do at local jams and little small gigs around town it works for me so far!

I don't practice scales anymore (did when I first started out) but I still do a G scale variant to warm my fingers up but it is more for just getting the fingers loose.

[journeybear]

... He said to just learn the tunes and play them long enough and you will find a commonality in all the tunes ...

Well, I stopped taking this thread seriously a long time ago - and thanks to Niles, the fat lady (?) HAS sung - but I'll just say this - that commonality being SCALES (so it is easy to interpret), why not just learn them, when the pertinent information has been extracted and presented in (relatively) easy-to-understand form?

Note: Lots of qualifiers and rhetorical question form should not be taken to imply I have any interest in discussing this further. As I said before, scales are much more important to reptiles and (I forgot) fish, but they are good to know.

[farmerjones]

just to see if this goes 7 pages. . . . .
you may or may not think about western pentatonic scales, this proves they're in the DNA.


Merry Christmas

FJ

[Alex Orr]

Look, there are certainly people who never learned any theory or had any lessons and can play excellent music completely by ear, but to be totally blunt, they're in the minority, as are the rest of folks who can just pick up the instrument, noodle around for a short while, and then just play it all by ear (assuming that was how they learned). Sure, they're out there, I'm not saying they aren't, but if that's the way folks are told to learn then I feel sorry for them. If that's the approach that a new player plans on taking then the odds are they are going to become frustrated, confused, and eventually lose interest in the instrument, often blaming themselves for not having the special gift needed to play music. It's a lousy philosophy with which to learn (or teach) music.

Look, some people don't need to be taught calculus. They are just math geniuses who pick it up. But wouldn't it be ridiculous to give a bunch of kids a bunch of numbers and tell them to solve equations with no instruction or sets of rules and principles? The result may be that one kid out of a hundred could naturally solve the things. Would you just tell the rest of them, "Sorry, instruction in math fundamentals is bad and if you don't get it, then you obviously have no business doing math."? Furthermore, do you think a genius physicist or engineer is hampered by having been taught their skills with foundational knowledge at the core. Most engineers probably do addition, multiplication, and subtraction without having to remind themselves of the reasons why addition and subtraction make sense every time they solve an equation, but would they be able to do higher level math if someone hadn't explained the basic science behind the stuff to them as little kids? Maybe...but more then likely if they were never taught to memorize multiplication tables or why addition and subtraction worked they'd just be ignorant adults with shaky or non-existent math skills.

I hate how this always happens. Someone asks if theory/scales, etc... is helpful and most people say yes. Then you get a handful of folks who say that they know this one guy who is great and he knows nothing about scales, theory, keys, chords, etc... Thus, it really doesn't need to be learned and most likely could hurt your musical future. Ridiculous.

BTW, as far as the anecdotal stuff goes, I'd suggest a little bit of caution. This comes up in blues circles a bunch. Someone asks if learning a blues scale is worth it and most folks say, "yes" but a few say that it's all from your heart and your ears and if you're meant to play it will just happen. They'll point to someone like Charley Patton and say, "well, he didn't know anything and could play" with the underlying idea being that he represents the majority of great blues musicians, who by implication were all innocently ignorant of any theoretical knowledge. Well, I call BS on both accounts. First off, there are always going to be outliers, but modeling a whole learning system on them is as illogical an idea as I can imagine. Second, most "folk" musicians know far more music "theory" then they are given credit for, or are usually willing to acknowledge. Benjamin Filene's Romancing the Folk talks about this at some length, pointing out a long standing trend in folk musics of many, many kinds in which musicians almost always say they just play by ear, never had a lesson, and know nothing of the ivory tower world of music theory. As a result, legions of players assume that learning music systematically must be bad. Truth be told, from the three books I’ve read on Monroe I believe he knew quite a lot. Guy could read music, understood scales, and even understood how the alternate tunings he occasionally utilized worked…wow! Maybe these guys aren’t all so blissfully ignorant.

The "anti-theory" folks seem to have this ridiculous idea that learning any sort of theoretical skills is an all-or-nothing endeavor. The argument often goes something like, "well, you could play scales 8 hours a day, or you could play MUSIC". Give me a break. Why not spend ten minutes a day learning a G major scale, then learn the chords for a simple song in G major, then use the scale in that key as a roadmap to generate melodic ideas...aka breaks/solos? Wow! Look, theory leading to compositional and improv skills! Is that possible? Can one actually learn a little theory and a lot of music? Man, I don’t know. That seems impossible. Hey, maybe if you work on those scales, learn those positions, and use them to create music, then someday you may be able to “just play” and not always be thinking about the scales. What a wild idea. Learning the stuff and then knowing it well enough to forget it. I’m guessing no music student has ever done that before because once they learn scales, they just become robots…you know, sort’ve like all those classical musicians, who, based on the majority of anecdotes on these boards, are all (each and every one) incapable of a single improvisational thought or non-classical music idea.

Once again, I think it's ridiculous that the same arguments come up when someone asks if learning any "theoretical" skill on the mandolin is worth their time. Nah, Shawn...all the greats knew nothing. You should learn nothing. Noodle around aimlessly for eight hours a day. You'll get it all down in a couple of months. If not, give up. Stuff in books can only hurt your playing.

I get really irked when people advocate ignorance in learning music with the belief that it's some sort of acceptable state for the majority of budding pickers. It annoys me to hear that Shawn's music teacher seems to hold this belief and it annoys me when folks on these boards basically support that stance. I'm done with this thread and every similar one in the future.

[mrmando]

I was talking with my friend and former teacher Herschel Sizemore a while back and I asked him if scales are important. He told me they are a waste of time of course he's coming from a strictly BG background and plays completely by ear.

He said to just learn the tunes and play them long enough and you will find a commonality in all the tunes.
Where I come from, we have a name for that commonality.

We call it a scale.

It's Christmastime, so everyone do me a favor: Play the first two bars of "Joy to the World" on your mandolin. If you don't know it, figure it out by ear. Don't read the rest of this post until you've played it.

------------------------























































































































































































OK, did you play "Joy to the World"?

Congratulations!

You just played a

d
e
s
c
e
n
d
i
n
g

1-
o
c
t
a
v
e

m
a
j
o
r

s
c
a
l
e.

[GVD]

... I'm done with this thread and every similar one in the future.

I'm disapointed to hear that since your post is the best one I've read in this entire thread.

[Mike Bunting]

Look, there are certainly people who never learned any theory or had any lessons and can play excellent music completely by ear, but to be totally blunt, they're in the minority, as are the rest of folks who can just pick up the instrument, noodle around for a short while, and then just play it all by ear (assuming that was how they learned). Sure, they're out there, I'm not saying they aren't, but if that's the way folks are told to learn then I feel sorry for them. If that's the approach that a new player plans on taking then the odds are they are going to become frustrated, confused, and eventually lose interest in the instrument, often blaming themselves for not having the special gift needed to play music. It's a lousy philosophy with which to learn (or teach) music.

Look, some people don't need to be taught calculus. They are just math geniuses who pick it up. But wouldn't it be ridiculous to give a bunch of kids a bunch of numbers and tell them to solve equations with no instruction or sets of rules and principles? The result may be that one kid out of a hundred could naturally solve the things. Would you just tell the rest of them, "Sorry, instruction in math fundamentals is bad and if you don't get it, then you obviously have no business doing math."? Furthermore, do you think a genius physicist or engineer is hampered by having been taught their skills with foundational knowledge at the core. Most engineers probably do addition, multiplication, and subtraction without having to remind themselves of the reasons why addition and subtraction make sense every time they solve an equation, but would they be able to do higher level math if someone hadn't explained the basic science behind the stuff to them as little kids? Maybe...but more then likely if they were never taught to memorize multiplication tables or why addition and subtraction worked they'd just be ignorant adults with shaky or non-existent math skills.

I hate how this always happens. Someone asks if theory/scales, etc... is helpful and most people say yes. Then you get a handful of folks who say that they know this one guy who is great and he knows nothing about scales, theory, keys, chords, etc... Thus, it really doesn't need to be learned and most likely could hurt your musical future. Ridiculous.

BTW, as far as the anecdotal stuff goes, I'd suggest a little bit of caution. This comes up in blues circles a bunch. Someone asks if learning a blues scale is worth it and most folks say, "yes" but a few say that it's all from your heart and your ears and if you're meant to play it will just happen. They'll point to someone like Charley Patton and say, "well, he didn't know anything and could play" with the underlying idea being that he represents the majority of great blues musicians, who by implication were all innocently ignorant of any theoretical knowledge. Well, I call BS on both accounts. First off, there are always going to be outliers, but modeling a whole learning system on them is as illogical an idea as I can imagine. Second, most "folk" musicians know far more music "theory" then they are given credit for, or are usually willing to acknowledge. Benjamin Filene's Romancing the Folk talks about this at some length, pointing out a long standing trend in folk musics of many, many kinds in which musicians almost always say they just play by ear, never had a lesson, and know nothing of the ivory tower world of music theory. As a result, legions of players assume that learning music systematically must be bad. Truth be told, from the three books I’ve read on Monroe I believe he knew quite a lot. Guy could read music, understood scales, and even understood how the alternate tunings he occasionally utilized worked…wow! Maybe these guys aren’t all so blissfully ignorant.

The "anti-theory" folks seem to have this ridiculous idea that learning any sort of theoretical skills is an all-or-nothing endeavor. The argument often goes something like, "well, you could play scales 8 hours a day, or you could play MUSIC". Give me a break. Why not spend ten minutes a day learning a G major scale, then learn the chords for a simple song in G major, then use the scale in that key as a roadmap to generate melodic ideas...aka breaks/solos? Wow! Look, theory leading to compositional and improv skills! Is that possible? Can one actually learn a little theory and a lot of music? Man, I don’t know. That seems impossible. Hey, maybe if you work on those scales, learn those positions, and use them to create music, then someday you may be able to “just play” and not always be thinking about the scales. What a wild idea. Learning the stuff and then knowing it well enough to forget it. I’m guessing no music student has ever done that before because once they learn scales, they just become robots…you know, sort’ve like all those classical musicians, who, based on the majority of anecdotes on these boards, are all (each and every one) incapable of a single improvisational thought or non-classical music idea.

Once again, I think it's ridiculous that the same arguments come up when someone asks if learning any "theoretical" skill on the mandolin is worth their time. Nah, Shawn...all the greats knew nothing. You should learn nothing. Noodle around aimlessly for eight hours a day. You'll get it all down in a couple of months. If not, give up. Stuff in books can only hurt your playing.

I get really irked when people advocate ignorance in learning music with the belief that it's some sort of acceptable state for the majority of budding pickers. It annoys me to hear that Shawn's music teacher seems to hold this belief and it annoys me when folks on these boards basically support that stance. I'm done with this thread and every similar one in the future.
All absolutely true!

[Ken_P]

Look, there are certainly people who never learned any theory or had any lessons and can play excellent music completely by ear...

etc

Hear, hear! I've stayed out so far but I have to say this is probably the best post on the topic so far. If you choose not to learn scales or any kind of formal theory, you're limiting yourself as a musician, period. I think someone said much earlier in this thread something to the effect of it can never be bad to know more about music. How would spending a few minutes a day learning scales be a detriment? I could list dozens of ways that not learning scales could hold you back, but learning? Never a bad thing.

[mandolirius]

Hear, hear! I've stayed out so far but I have to say this is probably the best post on the topic so far. If you choose not to learn scales or any kind of formal theory, you're limiting yourself as a musician, period. I think someone said much earlier in this thread something to the effect of it can never be bad to know more about music. How would spending a few minutes a day learning scales be a detriment? I could list dozens of ways that not learning scales could hold you back, but learning? Never a bad thing.

I'm not usually much for joining the chorus but this time I can't resist. What a great post! The only thing I'd add is that I think a lot of the OP's that begin topics like this are disingenous.I can't believe that anyone involved in music is really confused about something as basic as scales. Everyone knows they are the building blocks of music. I'm not sure why they ask things like "are they necessary' or "do I have to", but I think they know the answer already.
On the other hand, as someone pointed out, you don't have to do anything you don't want to.

[Mike Bunting]

Using the brain seems anathema these days.

[doc holiday]

My votes for favorite posts of the year would be those by Scott Holt ("and you know how it turned out for him") and Alex Orr. Even though the fat lady has sung, to refer to the OP, if you knew the notes of the scale/melody....you might know when a note that you sing is off key??

[Alex Orr]

I'm not usually much for joining the chorus but this time I can't resist. What a great post! The only thing I'd add is that I think a lot of the OP's that begin topics like this are disingenous.I can't believe that anyone involved in music is really confused about something as basic as scales. Everyone knows they are the building blocks of music. I'm not sure why they ask things like "are they necessary' or "do I have to", but I think they know the answer already.
On the other hand, as someone pointed out, you don't have to do anything you don't want to.
Okay, I can't stay out...so much for my claim of washing my hands of this thread :redface:

Here's one of the reasons that the whole "know-nothing and just play" idea bugs me so much, and why I think some people are confused about the need to learn scales when starting out. I started playing guitar years ago, but I was very impatient to actually PLAY songs. I had a few lessons with a guy who was trying to teach me basic chords and scales. It seemed really dull. Then I discovered the internet and all those wonderful tabs! (it was the '90s and this was still pretty new and wild) So, I promptly just started printing off tabs to everything and decided I'd be better off learning like that and by ear. Long story short, it left me a very ineffective and confused guitar player. I fumbled around for years like that, but it wasn't until many years later on guitar that I decided to start from scratch and learn how to play the instrument and not just aimlessly noodle around with it. Learning why songs worked, where my scales are, what keys mean, and how chords, scales and keys interact really didn't take that long, and I became a better guitar player just focusing my efforts in those directions (as well as applying them to some basic improv and melodic lead comp) than I ever did just randomly trying to play the thing by ear and feel. When I started mando three years ago I immediately began with equal parts technique, theory, and repertoire building. They all go together and they all reinforce each other. I'm better now after three years of playing mandolin about an hour a day, four or five days a week than I ever thought I'd be or have ever been on guitar. Maybe it's just the right instrument for me, but I'd also guess it's because I learned the right way from the start. Lots of folks take the approach I did on guitar, and despite playing an instrument for years, they never pick up some fundamentals, like scales or why certain chords make up a song.

Oh, and sorry about the level of snarkiness on that long post. It was probably too sarcastic and caustic :redface:

[catmandu2]

Okay, I can't stay out...so much for my claim of washing my hands of this thread :redface:

Oh, and sorry about the level of snarkiness on that long post. It was probably too sarcastic and caustic :redface:

And at Christmas!? :grin:

There are many experiences of music, of course. Like you, I spent many years playing guitar without technical wherewithal. Eventually, I acquired the Segovia scale studies and began serious study. But, guitar is a wonderful "folk" instrument that affords much enjoyment with a few chords...mando too, to some extent. Other instruments really require more investment to derive as much enjoyment. I guess it's reasonable that a person will undertake technical study when they are ready to do so--when their aspirations exceed their capacities enough to impel motivation.

[JeffD]

And at Christmas!I guess it's reasonable that a person will undertake technical study when they are ready to do so--when their aspirations exceed their capacities enough to impel motivation.

True enough. Two points that follow on, one is that our aspirations change as we play more and as we get exposed to more music. Secondly, there is a mistaken point of view that to much learning will somehow subtract from the authenticity of one's playing. We all know its wrong, that learning just gives us more and better tools to express our authenticity, but it does sometimes get in the way.

[Jim]

There are, without doubt, as many ways to learn to play an instrument as there are people who learn to play. The scales became useful to me after I had played guitar for about 5 years and had learned alot of songs. The relationship between scales used in one key and scales used in another key became apparent to me. Prior to that I practiced scales some because I was told to by teachers ect. Then I had a moment of enlightenment when I realized these patterns on the guitar neck could be moved and the steps up or down corisponded to the note of the key change. I was in my early teens at the time and suddenly I could improv in any key. I know people had explained it to me prior to my enlightenment but I just didn't get it. Then suddenly I did !

[Jim MacDaniel]

Using the brain seems anathema these days.

Scales are a just a plot by them dag burned liberal intellectuals to get us to think!

[Mike Bunting]

Scales are a just a plot by them dag burned liberal intellectuals to get us to think!

If only. :)

[Alex Orr]

Scales are a just a plot by them dag burned liberal intellectuals to get us to think!
I've also heard they're a gateway drug to wanting to learn jazz :disbelief:

[Mike Bunting]

See? Better living through chemistry.

[theCOOP]

I had my mandlin for a little overa year, noodleing around and getting absolutely nowhere until I started taking lessons.

I'm still anxious to play tunes and find the scales and chords boring, but they help me to understand what it is I'm doing, and why it works.

Now, I can't rhyme this stuff off by any means, but I do feel it's helping. I don't know one scale or chord rom another yet, but it's finally coming along nonetheless.

[Poener]

I know the A and the G scale in the first position.

[John McGann]

I'm still anxious to play tunes and find the scales and chords boring, but they help me to understand what it is I'm doing, and why it works.


They become a heck of a lot less boring when you realize they are the DNA of every single tune/solo on any instrument in the Western world (that is, music that actually uses chords).

I call it the "oh, yeah!" factor- when the light bulb goes on, and you draw the connection between what you are doing and what all those "boring" scales and chords are. It's actually really fun, and not nearly as geeky as it seems at first...it's just the means to an end, which is :mandosmiley: !!!

Once you learn a scale, learn a tune in that key, or better yet, transpose by ear a tune you know already in a different key...you realize a lot of things about gravity this way (not that you fall over a lot, but that the root note of the scale has a certain 'draw', and that the other notes that we label 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 all have a really strong identity...why a 'bluesy' passage sounds the way it does in relation to the 'white key' major scale, etc.)...try learning some scale patterns (there are dozens of 'em)...try using some non-chop chord voicings for chords, try playing arpeggios and look for them in tunes like Soldier's Joy, Blackberry Blossom etc...get that 'oh yeah' factor going, because it'll light a fire that'll keep you going!

ps pogue yer own mahone ;)

[San Rafael]

Why would a person NOT want to learn scales? Here comes a longish post. My advice is to avoid it.

As others have noted, this thread is just one of a time-honored genre of threads on the Cafe. The heat in such discussions is generated because of implied value or skill judgments. "By-ear" players begin to feel put down. "By-theory" players become baffled by the heat generated by what they think are their own innocuous encouragements to dabble in theory. Then they get accused of being sterile eggheads and feel put down themselves. Snottiness increases until a moderator puts the thread out of its misery.

Well hell, I want a piece of that too. And I'm not a disinterested party. I'm a partisan! A few thoughts:

1. Great "by-ear" players know a ton of theory. They just learned it/know it from a different angle. The idea that, say, Monroe knew no theory is ridiculous on its face.

2. Likewise, one of the presiding fallacies of these discussions is that musicians who are interested in theory therefore don't play "by ear" as well, and are just soul-less automata come to suck the life out of mother music. Nonsense.

3. As I asked in my opening question, why not learn scales? Some basic theory is tempting, comrades. It's fun. It's interesting. It's useful. And it just isn't that hard, for heaven's sake. In previous "should I learn to read music" versions of this thread, my response, usually silent, has always been that fifth-grade, beginning band students learn to read in a couple of months, and most seem undamaged by the terrible experience.

4. (Here's where I will come closest to what got previous versions of this topic shut down). Can we please stretch beyond the current cultural bullying about "book-larnin"? Not knowing things isn't necessarily more virtuous than knowing things. Books have uses elsewhere than the outhouse. Intellectual engagement isn't by definition comical, suspicious, or subversive. It's actually a huge part of what makes us human.

5. One of the things I love most about the mandolin is how much theory it has taught me.

[Alex Orr]

They become a heck of a lot less boring when you realize they are the DNA of every single tune/solo on any instrument in the Western world (that is, music that actually uses chords).

I call it the "oh, yeah!" factor- when the light bulb goes on, and you draw the connection between what you are doing and what all those "boring" scales and chords are. It's actually really fun, and not nearly as geeky as it seems at first...it's just the means to an end, which is :mandosmiley: !!!

Once you learn a scale, learn a tune in that key, or better yet, transpose by ear a tune you know already in a different key.
Here's a real-life example from the last 24 hours. I had really been enjoying the Doc and Dawg album and thought it would be nice to learn Buegrass Stomp. It turns out I have the music for the more advanced breaks Bill does in Todd Collins Classic Bluegrass Solos, however, the main lead wasn't transcribed. No problem. I know the key is in D from Todd's book (but I could have easily found it by ear in a minute or two from simply trying out a few scales along with the recording ). Sounds like it's low on the neck, likely first position, so I just run noodle around with my D pentatonic (since the tune is a blues) tossing in some blue notes. Voila! Literally within two minutes I have (more or less) exactly what Bill is playing. Having the basic parameters to work within allowed me to find Bill's lead line basically on-the-spot, and, because I know my notes on the fretboard, and my scales, I was able to move the whole thing up an octave without giving it a second thought. Theory leading to an on-the-spot transcription of a Bill Monroe lead line followed by instant improvisation. Again, not saying it's impossible to do this completely by ear, but it sure is a case where a developed ear combined with knowledge of the instrument and how music works led to a quick lead break and spontaneous improv.

[John McGann]

The more tools you have in your toolbox, the less your project looks like it was built with just a phillips head screwdriver :))

[groveland]

Look, there are certainly people who never learned any theory or had any lessons and can play excellent music completely by ear, but to be totally blunt, they're in the minority, as are the rest of folks who can just pick up the instrument, noodle around for a short while, and then just play it all by ear (assuming that was how they learned). Sure, they're out there, I'm not saying they aren't, but if that's the way folks are told to learn then I feel sorry for them. If that's the approach that a new player plans on taking then the odds are they are going to become frustrated, confused, and eventually lose interest in the instrument, often blaming themselves for not having the special gift needed to play music. It's a lousy philosophy with which to learn (or teach) music.
Allow me to respectfully disagree. I am a theory nut, and I hold the ability to read music a tremendously valuable skill. However:

The above definition, "there are certainly people who never learned any theory or had any lessons and can play excellent music... " and so on, is a historical definition of the majority, not the minority, of popular Rock, Funk Gospel and Blues musicians, and likely most popular music genres. Self-taught, by ear, few or no lessons has been the rule, not the exception. I think that DIY approach hasn't fraustrated or confused many at all, and on the contrary, has probably been the greatest enabler, motivator, and disseminator of music to the regular guy.

More recently an increasing number of music schools, seeing a need, and more importantly the market, have assembled curriculums to equip popular musicians to actually work as professionals. Theory and reading are a big part of these offerings. That's great, but you gotta wonder if the act of formalizing a curriculum for teaching traditional and popular music forms isn't the antithisis of the thing, and doesn't in some way contribute to the death of that form.

But that's another topic. The point is, I believe in popular music forms, up until very recently, the DIY player was the rule, not the exception.

[Alex Orr]

The point is, I believe in popular music forms, up until very recently, the DIY player was the rule, not the exception.
I'll posit the opposite, but also hold that there has probably been a wide range of what we may generally refer to as music lessons. For one thing, the church has been a major force in folk music, from the blues to country to bluegrass. Many artists who have been popularly considered to be completely self-taught learned how to read music (standard or shape-note) and the basics of harmony through growing up going to church, including Aretha Franklin and Mahalia Jackson. This is a thread that comes up in both black and white folk music tradition. Furthermore, there is no doubt that music (and instruction on how to play an instrument) was very often handed down and taught by more experienced players to the inexperienced players. As a young kid trying to learn the blues by simply hanging out and watching older blues guys, Robert Johnson was reportedly a bad enough player that he was looked upon as a joke. Then he seemed to disappear for a couple of years and return with some major chops. Most current scholarship suggests that he spent that time "studying" with a couple of very good blues pickers who took him under their wing (see books by Robert Palmer and Barry Pearson for more info on RJ and theories of his musical development). Doc Watson and Blind Willie McTell both learned how to read sheet music in braille while enrolled at schools for the blind. Now, I'm not saying these guys would never have made a note worth hearing if they hadn't have had some musical education, nor am I saying that all musical educations have been uniform in style and content, nor am I saying there aren't folks who just learned completely on their own, but it's worth pointing out that there is a lot of myth around the idea of the self-taught folk musician and his seemingly magical ability to just "get" the instrument and the music with absolutely no musical education or idea what he's playing.

However, since we really don't have the ability to prove this one way or another, I think we'll just have to respectfully disagree and enjoy the exchange of ideas :)

I might as well point out that there are also a lot of really bad teachers who teach theory in a terrible manner, reducing it to rote exercises and divorcing it entirely from the actual act of playing recognizable music. A good teacher should blend the two things together seamlessly, and I suppose that applies to a lot areas where the underlying fundamental can be really dull. Grammar is boring unless you see how it leads to good prose, learning how to play with fractions can seem completely pointless unless you see how it allows you to solve real world problems.

[Patrick Market]

The more tools you have in your toolbox, the less your project looks like it was built with just a phillips head screwdriver :))

I :)) until I :crying:. Thank you, thank you! Loved it!

As a side note, I have now re-learned my scales in the 6 days since this thread began. ;)

[mandocrucian]

http://eparson.tripod.com/images/Christmas1999/SNL-Merry%20Christmas.jpg

"Tonto say 'Learn read smoke signal' "

"Tarzan not need scales"

Frankenstein: "Scale....... BAAADDD"!

[LateBloomer]

Between Alex Orr's and John McGann's posts I suddenly have a new appreciation for what scales can do! I see the light! It all makes sense now! Why didn't someone tell me this before! (Ok, maybe someone did mention it before, but I might not have been ready to understand it.... but I think I have it now!)