Playing Triplets (Again...)

[MikeB]

I was sitting around playing scales today. #I start with all down strokes, then a DU combination on each note, then triplets, and sometimes four DUDU strokes per note. #This seems like a fairly good practice routine, reinforcing scales and pick strokes at the same time. #

The question I have is about triplets. #When I play them, it seems easiest and smoothest to keep the DUDUDU pattern going, but since they ARE triplets (groups of three), I feel like maybe they should be played DUD DUD DUD, or in some other similar pattern (DDU DDU, etc).

I've read a lot here, especially regarding playing jigs, about pick direction choices. #In fact, when I play a jig, I mostly play DUD DUD. #

But, with triplets--either the occasional embellishment, or a string of them, in Celtic or any kind of music--what's the general consensus? #I find the straight DUDUDUD easy enough, and I can add emphasis on either a down or up stroke, but something doesn't seem quite right about this approach.

[danb]

It's a reasonably broad consensus that triplets get picked like so in a jig phrase (the ones grouped together are the triplet):

D UDU D UDU
or
DUD U DUD U

playing *without* triplets is about 80/20 in favor of DUD DUD vs DDU DDU. I'm in the 20%. Maybe it's 5%, or just me even. Maybe I spotted myself a virtual subculture of supporters there. Excercise left to the reader

[MikeB]

I was hoping you'd pipe in, Dan. We've had similar discussion before, mostly about jigs. This subject constantly confuses me. I know there are different approaches and opinions, but I'm never sure where to find my own.

I don't see how a string of triplets is any different than a jig. I just learned Galway Hornpipe--several strings of triplets there. I play them DUDUDU. And it feels right. What's diffferent about 6/8 time jigs?

[danb]

Ah, well in a jig you're sticking triplets into an already interrupded pattern.. so you start with either DUD DUD or DDU DDU.. then you put in triplets that actually make the picking motion smoother.

In a strathspey or hornpipe, I play the triplet runs DDU DDU.. but in a reel I vary with either DUD or UDU triplets. For me, reels take more thinking and planning to get the triplets right, sometimes I create a break in the pattern with a triplet, then resolve it with another.

Some very fluid players always use DUDUDUDUDU and vary the speed. IMO, that's harder to do as a beginner, but in the long run makes the reel more fluid. I've been convinced more of this recently, even.

There are lots and lots of ways to make it work though, that's the real problem. Find one you like is my advice, and then practice repeating it over & over & over..

[Jeroen]

Oh boy. Triplets. Jigs are (mostly) clear indeed. You need the DuD DuD for the typical feel.
The other ones are a pain in the... uhm, tendons.
Every time I try to find instructions about them I find myself alone before I have become wiser. Mandolin players almost seem secretive about tricks concerning alternative pick directions. I once asked Red Rector (who used lots of triplets) how he picked them. He did not know, he said. Jethro Burns' books are packed with triplets, but no instructions for pick directions for them anywhere.
Not about triplets but related: I asked Tim O'Brien how he picks his powerful forward crosspicking rolls. I don't remember what he answered, but if it was anything helpful I would have remembered it.
I still don't have a standard approach for situations where DUDU just does not seem to work. Every time I bump into something I have to find solutions by trial and error, sometimes practicing different approaches next to each other.

I think I use all possible silly solutions. An occasional UDU triplet, a short phrase played upside down (UDUD UDUD) because a fast DUD triplet caught me unaware, whatever.
I could try to share my solutions for different situations, but I will save the board the DUDU jabba.

Also, I am not too sure if my solutions will work for everyone. Maybe that is exactly the reason why the pros don't share advice either.

Still, if I ever become good enough to have young players ask me how I play certain phrases, I promised myself to take the time and show it to them.

Bah. This post still smells like that horrible "whatever works for you" answer I always get when I am really really stuck.

[MikeB]

Some very fluid players always use DUDUDUDUDU and vary the speed. IMO, that's harder to do as a beginner, but in the long run makes the reel more fluid. I've been convinced more of this recently, even.


Dan, thank you for all your help, but especially for this. #This is what I've been thinking myself, lately. #I'll never be at your level as a player, but I'm not a beginner either.


I think I use all possible silly solutions. An occasional UDU triplet, a short phrase played upside down (UDUD UDUD) because a fast DUD triplet caught me unaware, whatever.
I could try to share my solutions for different situations, but I will save the board the DUDU jabba.
Also, I am not too sure if my solutions will work for everyone. Maybe that is exactly the reason why the pros don't share advice either.


Jeroen, thank you, too for these insights. #I was just reading a Tim O'Brien article about playing triplets and he tells how he tried to learn some tricks from an older Celtic player, and how difficult it was. #These things are subtle. # I get that. #Hearing you guys say these things might not expose any "tricks." # In fact, it makes me feel better to know there AIN'T no easy tricks. #At least I'm not missing something obvious...or doing something drastically wrong.

Thanks, guys. #Dan, your apparently infinite patience with questions like mine is priceless.

[pickles]

Thank you all! This thread reassures me that there is no hard and fast rule for playing triplets, so that I can do whatever works for me, without worrying that someone will watch my pick hand and walk away shaking their head, horrified.

My daughter needs me to do this: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[danb]

Well.. the reason you get "lots of stuff works" advice is because it's all kind of hard to describe as it's kinesthetic, and different stuff works very well for different people. I say that because of the sheer volume of times I've seen someone do triplets in a way that I won't think will work, and it works.

I think the best way to learn is to try a method patiently, at least until you start to "get it" before trying another. You need to program your tools with blind mindless repetition, then you can start cranking up the speed and doing it intentionally. I will work individual phrases in tunes for hours, eventually getting it right. Sometimes not!

The most important "ah-hah!" moment for me was rebelling violently against a lesson taught by a famous mandolin player of the time. He told me flat out that what I was trying (DDU DDU jig patterns, and 4-note "triplets") to do wouldn't work. 15 years of practice later I can smugly say that he was wrong, but I wonder some times if it might have only taken me 5 years to get it right the way he was trying to teach me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[MikeB]

The most important "ah-hah!" moment for me was rebelling violently against a lesson taught by a famous mandolin player of the time. He told me flat out that what I was trying (DDU DDU jig patterns, and 4-note "triplets") to do wouldn't work. 15 years of practice later I can smugly say that he was wrong, but I wonder some times if it might have only taken me 5 years to get it right the way he was trying to teach me #


Dan, just when I thought were going to give us the keys to the city there, you had to qualify it at the end. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But, I did like to hear you talk about "blind mindless repetition." #I, for one, tend to think the really good players (that be you) get this stuff down in a snap. #After all, none of us gets to see the practice you do, just your results, which seem so impossibly effortless.

I got some blind mindless repetition to take care of....

[Peter Hackman]

I'm a DDU man. Often D (one course)) D (next course)
U (that same course)). Or, perhaps, more often,
D(one string)- D(next string, same course, i.e., split
course) - U (next or same course). String spacing
within the pair
very critical, perhaps a hair too close on my Collings.

[duuuude]

This thread reassures me that there is no hard and fast rule for playing triplets, so that I can do whatever works for me, without worrying that someone will watch my pick hand and walk away shaking their head, horrified.
Yep, once ya get past what "should be done" and into "what works best for me" yer on the right track, IMWO. Play it your way, with your own style, and let 'em shake their heads if they will, long as it puts a smile on yer face you're doin' it right.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[danb]

High Five Peter! we DDU pickers are thin on the ground. Oh wait, I do two strokes down accross both strings. Oh well, we could still form an alliance anyway.

Mike- the blind mindless repetition is the key to the city, in my opinion. There's very little you can't do if you just plug away at it. I started out just like everyone else, embarrassed and horrible. I can tear into the stuff I've worked on, but I still swim about helplessly on stuff I've never tried before. I think a little of it is having the ear for it, but the big big bulk is simple woodshedding mixed with stubbornness.

[MikeB]

Dan, at the risk of repeating myself....THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for sharing that little tidbit. #Since we started this conversation--well, before that, actually--I've been doing exactly that: #working phrases or scales or patterns over and over and over and over.

So often we mortals read articles, books, etc, by the successful players and mostly we hear about stuff that just leaves us feeling stupid or without talent. #To have someone like you recommend just good hard rote practice is heartwarming to me. #Even if it turns out to be more "having an ear for it" as you put it, at least this gives me something very concrete I CAN do. #

Meanwhile, I'm proud to be among the Embarrassed and Horrible, if you that's what you were.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif