MArshall MXL 2001 mic`

[levin4now]

I recently saw someone using an MXL2001 mic with shock mount for an open mic event, and I wondered if anyone here uses the mic and what they thought of it. It seems to be a slightly more affordable mic than some recommended here. I was thinking of using it in a session in church, for vocals, guitar and mandolin around it.

ADM

[Pete Martin]

With anything, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I haven't used this mic, though I have used a number of similar Chinese large diaphram condenser mics (like this is). I see on audio newsgroups a lot of people think the MXL 2003 is a good mic for the money, better than the 2001. However, these mics are not that good when compared with say a Shure KSM large diaphram series (27, 32, my fav 44), or other good quality LDC mics. However, they are much cheaper.

My advice is if you will use a tool for a long time, then invest in a quality tool. Would you buy a cheap mando or a better one? A mic choice is the same. A good one you will keep using, a cheap one you won't want after a period of time.

Good pro audio stores will let you try out mics. Do this before deciding. Some places let you purchase, try and return mics you don't like. I have done this often when buying new mics.

Best of luck!!

[dasspunk]

I've rarely found a mic that I don't like...

The MXL mics aren't bad at all. I own a couple and like them just fine. My favorite mics in my closet are my Oktava mics. I would highly recommend them. I also have mics from Audio Technica, Rode and Studio Projects to name a few. I find uses for them all.

[Luthier Vandross]

I wouldn't use a large condenser live, and never on a mandolin.

M

[dasspunk]

I wouldn't use a large condenser live, and never on a mandolin.
I wish I had a dime for every penny I ever had.
I wish I had a dime for every lame post I've read on this board...

[Spruce]

"I wish I had a dime for every lame post I've read on this board... "

Well, you'd be 10 cents richer for your own post... #
Nice work if you can get it.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Mr. Vandross "wouldn't use a large condenser live, and never on a mandolin"...
That's a perfectly valid opinion...

It's a rare LDC that flatters a mandolin (the new line of Shures aren't exactly LDCs), and I'll reach for a KM84 instead of my U47 anyday....

LDCs onstage are cool for a lot of reasons, but they also present their own set of problems.
They are what I call "flea-fart" mics, picking up every little flea-fart onstage.

They also can contribute to huge phasing issues if you use more than one LDC onstage, and one only needs to watch "Down From the Mountain" to see/hear the mess that 5-6 U47s can sonically create (despite the 35K pricetag)...

Oh, and check here (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=MArshall+MXL+2001&meta=group%3Drec.audio.pro) for some info on the MXL 2001's, ADM...
Lots of info there, and a lot of it from informed and experienced sources...

[dasspunk]

You're not wrong Spruce... I really tried to refrain.

In my opinion, had there been some verbosity in the post (like yours), it would have had some value and been less troll-like.

Single LDCs on stage can be difficult and that should be considered. I like the one mic aproach for larger groups but prefer close micing for duets and such.

I too reach for my pencils before anything else for my mandos (mc012s... never could justify the km84s).

Also, I'll see your link and raise you one... MXL 2001 (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct00/articles/mxl.htm?)

[Fretbear]

Good links, guys; I have read alot of stuff on-line including a helpful link to a Sweetwater microphone primer that Spruce had posted on an earlier thread. What is the logic behind not using a LDC for recording mandolin (as opposed to say, guitar...) Thanks.

[Luthier Vandross]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's ok, besides having a degree in music, I have 34 years of playing experience, 18 years in live sound, 16 years in internationally recognized recordings for rock, jazz, pop, and soloists on instruments such as violins, spoken word, mellotrons, symphonys, string quartets, the space shuttle, a Rolling Stone, a transvestite, and many chorales, and I've owned all the instruments, microphones, and preamps you will never see, except in magazines, and on videos.

I know what instrument sounds good, with what player, with what mic, in what room, for what the song calls for.

I'd use an AKG 451 about 12 inches out from the fingerboard extension, finda sweetspot, using a CK-1 capsule, or a CK-5, and I may even opt for a middle/side pair, if it's someone lively, like Grisman, playing in a duo, in a small room, with medium ceilings, and a nice clean midrange.

In that case, I'd break all the rules, and use a Neuman SM2, in a 90 degree configuration, with the left capsule as the side pair, as per my typical setup, the left track is always the side.

I'd either run that thru a GTQ-2, or a Brent Avrill 1073, and I'd knock off the peaks with whatever doesn't hurt it best, probably a variable-MU compressor, or one of the Flamingos..

Whatever...

Miles

[Luthier Vandross]

...and I can build a mandolin, and I can repair your destroyed pre-war instrument..

-just a plug-


M

[levin4now]

Thanks for the info. I'm just keeping my eye open for a deal. I don't have a lot of money. My church certainly doesn't see the need for better sound equipment - they don't like the pop, hiss, and squeals we get from our stuff, but don't see the need for improvement. It's just that we have a loosely organized praise team. One girl on piano, me and another guy on guitar/mando in front of one mic, and some young people singing around the pulpit mic. Since we don't use monitors (heaven forbid!), I can't hear what we sound like. I can't tell if our guitars and/or our voices are being amplified, and it seems like you got to awful close to the mic for the vocals to be picked up. I figured that a LDC mic would be a decent option (for picking up our two voices and guit/mando) since I see BG bands (DelMcCoury Band for example) use them (LDC's, not Marshalls). I also knew i couldn't afford the better ones, and someone recommended the mxl2001 to me.

[dasspunk]

lol...

Hey look! A dime!

[dasspunk]

Hey Alan,

I think your use of the word "session" threw the thread slightly off topic. Eg. "session" usually equates to recording. Sounds like (and as I read) you're looking for a live thing.

Mics, much like mandolins, are subject to snobbery. Ultimately the same solution apply to both. Ask for some advice, decide what's appropriate and get what you can afford and sounds good to you.

I still recommend taking a peek at the Oktava 319 (http://search.ebay.com/oktava-319_recordsperpageZ50QQfromZR6QQnojsprZyQQpfidZ0) over the 2001 but either should work for what you're doing...

[Spruce]

"What is the logic behind not using a LDC for recording mandolin (as opposed to say, guitar...)"

Most LDCs tend to have an EQ bump built into them at around 8-10K (correct me if I'm wrong, Miles), which tends to be very unflattering on a mandolin to these ears, especially compared to the flat response of say, a KM84...

It was no accident that Grisman chose KM84s to record all those very different mandolins (and guitars) on Tone Poems.
They tend to capture a very realistic image of what the instrument is putting out...

"In that case, I'd break all the rules, and use a Neuman SM2, in a 90 degree configuration, with the left capsule as the side pair, as per my typical setup, the left track is always the side."

You're losing me here on this LV. #Could you elaborate a tad?
This is an M/S setup, right? #With what other mics?
Man, that SM2 is a sweet mic...

"I too reach for my...mc012s... never could justify the km84s"

That's gotta be worth a dollar in dimes...
Just my opinion, of course...

[Romkey]

A question on live-performace condenser mics for Mr. Vandross and the rest of you mic-savvy mandolinists.

I've dallied with pickups, including the Fishman bridge. They all provide the volume to compete with a guitar going into the PA via direct box, but I've yet to find anything that sounds good, doesn't get in the way, isn't a hassle to take on and off, doesn't require drilling holes, etc.

Another player recommeded using an AKG C1000S with my mandolin. I'm flirting with a Schertler pickup, but they're pricey and I'm getting tired of collecting pickups I have to diddle with that don't really cut it. What do you think of the AKG?

I'm playing small clubs and fests with a Celtic band and need something dependable that will have plenty of presence when I need it and not be a hassle to use. (It would be nice if it would change my strings for me, too, but that's probably too much to ask.) Thanks!

[levin4now]

Thanks for pointing that out dasspunk. THe word "session" was a poor choice of words. This is a great way to get advice, and ultimately I will have to make an affordable decision. I can get some of these mics at a decent price and if I don't like em, I can probably sell em and not lose to badly.

[luthierfer]

The primary disadvantage for a large diaphram is that the soundwaves hit the width of the diaphram at angles... different times, and those slight phase distortions make a complex sound ugly... or let's say not ugly.. just phase distorted. It's not something you notice as much, until you A/B with a smaller mic, a mandolin really makes it pretty evident, everyone in the room will be able to tell. (A/B'd)

As far as live sound, I still prefer mics, but I am very excited about two pickup systems: Pickup The World (http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/ )and BBand AST (acoustic soundboard transducer)
The AST is made for a guitar, but I am experimenting with it on F5s, with some great success.. it's not hard to mount, and it does one thing; sounds natural.

The Pickup the World rig is a little more involved, but probably has greater potential, and is going to require a bit more R&D.

I am all about acoustic recording, it's the most challenging!

Be safe!


Miles

[Romkey]

Mike Marshall has a Pickup the World in his Loar. It's wired to a phone jack in the tailpiece. (Yikes!) But he says it sounds great.

[Luthier Vandross]

There I was.... posting from Derek's account.... tsk tsk....

The PUTW rig is transparent sounding, finding the best mounting points in a mando is hard, you can't get your arm in the hole.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

M

[dasspunk]

"I too reach for my...mc012s... never could justify the km84s"

That's gotta be worth a dollar in dimes...
Just my opinion, of course...
Looks like you earned a few dimes of your own...

[Spruce]

So you're telling me that your mc012s are a better mic than the KM84?

Or that you just can't afford the KM84 and went looking (I hope not at Guitar Center) for something that sounded sorta similar?

Did you ever A/B the two?

Anyone who appreciates a well-made small-diaphram condenser with a flat frequency response laments the day that Neumann decided to quit making the KM84.

[Luthier Vandross]

2 KM84s in the locker, if the 451s weren't those are the next choice.. stopped making them? lmao.. jees. Looks like time to add two more.

I also forgot to talk about the M/S with an SM2. You aim the head at the floor. The capsules are mounted end-to-end inside, you aim the right side at the sweetspot, and turn the left side 180 out, so now, the 'musician' is facing the edge of the capsule. I say 180 degrees, but I never make it 'just so' I listen for the breath of the room.

As not to leave this incomplete, so I have one track that is a mono track, and it's as you'd hear on any recording, then you have a second track, that is the ambient reflections (180 out). You either double that track, and then flip the phase of the duplicate, or you skip that step, by recording the third track on the first pass with a phased mult from the patchbay that you should probably have in your setups... heh.

It's magnificent, it's what makes the hair stand up on peoples arms, it catches your attention, it sounds as real as you can imagine, if you practice at it, and barely use it.

M

[Spruce]

Yeah, they quit making the KM84 quite a few years ago, replacing it with the noticably different KM184...
Still a good mic, but not as flat...

Thanks for the M/S info....
I've been doing something similar with The Binaural Skull (http://http://www.tf4.com/webskull/), a mic I made about 25 copies of a few years back.
It's a good mic, but no SM2...

[steve V. johnson]

I have PUTW soundboard transducers in several instruments, guitars and a Crump bouzouki. PUTW also makes a ribbon transducer that goes under the foot (or feet) of a mandolin bridge. I love the stuff (can you tell?), but I find that it benefits immensely from a good preamp.

The KM-184 is said not to have the same mojo as the KM-84, but I actually prefer it. I have a pair of AKG C452s (a phantom-power variant of the C451, but the same capsule and preamp body), and I use them a lot on acoustic instruments... mainly in the studio, but live on occaision. A good friend has a pair of KM-184s and I find them to be a bit more open than the 452s, and they are FAST, they have a tremendously quick response on transients. like picking and percussion instruments.

I really want to try out (I'm saving up for ... <GG>) a Josephson C-42. Audio buddies say that these are "silkier", "smoother" and quicker than either the AKG or the Neumanns.

I've had and used the Oktavas, and they are a good low-budget alternative. But for real fidelity they fall far below these others. IMO. Because of the low cost, if you're playing thru inexpensive (house) PAs, they are good and not a lot is at risk if they are damaged or stolen. In the studio they were noticably harsh to my ears.

As always YMMV.

I have heard good FOH engineers do well with large diaphragm mics onstage, but only with, maybe three of 'em. More than that can get really weird.

The Binaural Skull is exciting! Is it still very expensive?

Thanks!

stv

[Spruce]

"The KM-184 is said not to have the same mojo as the KM-84, but I actually prefer it."

I did an extensive shootout with the 2 mics, and the thing that was most noticable about the KM184 was the hyped bass response.
Both are great mics...

"The Binaural Skull is exciting! #Is it still very expensive?"

I sold them for 200 bucks each, but you can make your own pretty easily with a couple Panasonic capsules and a little bit of labor.

Hearing a binaural recording through headpones is a trip. #You can literally hear not only side to side, but front and back. #I did a recording of a tapdancer with the Skull, and you can hear him circleing around your head on 'phones...

[Luthier Vandross]

Cool Bruce, I also built a binaural rig, from homebuilt preamps, pieced together from AKG bodies from 451Es, and a pair of cheapy capsules I yanked out of a Sony stereo mic made for a NAGRA kind of thing.. all loaded into a wig head, filled with that latex stuff that they make movie prosthetics with..

I used 'Bob' to record effects for movies, and finally was talked into loaning him permanently to a person I'll never see again..

Ahh... Bob, you are missed... it's nice to have someone to yell at... and the meters move, so you know they damned well heard you! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I actually took molds of (someone else did really) my own ear canals.. uhh... latex yanks out all those pesky hairs.. OUCH!

Miles

[Zed]

I wouldn't use a large condenser live, and never on a mandolin.

So, for your typical bluegrass group, like maybe Del McCoury or Rhonda Vincent, they'd be better off using a multi mic setup with monitors, with either SDCs or even dynamics? (live, i'm talking live here). If so, please explain.

My band is going 'round and 'round with this issue right now so this subject is of great interest to me.

[steve V. johnson]

BTW, AKG has 're-issued' the 451s and word among the rec.audio.pro crowd is that the new ones are different, and apparently aren't liked as well.

stv

[Luthier Vandross]

In a venue big enough for 200 people, sometimes a single mic works ok.

I run a room that holds 130 people, I run sound for many of these people we are talking about in there, and because it's so small, no mic would be my preference over a single mic, although I allow some to use it, it's terrible. Outdoors, it's laughable.

4 people jumping at a microphone... with 2.5 foot long instruments, and then that fiddle headed gibson banjo stabbed the loar... tsk tsk.

John sings louder, and plays guitar. Bob sings very slightly, and plays banjo....

Here comes the harmony part- (John's screaming flat voice, over Bob's non-existant harmony, accentuated by no guitar, and blasting banjo)-

Then the guitar solo- (John runs up to the mic, he's a barrier for all other instruments, and the proximity effect takes over, nothing but boomy/muffled Martin junk, you can't even understand where the notes end)

and the harmony again -(John takes his time jumping back in the circle of people standing around a mic that only picks up 60 degrees in front... at least anywhere near a flat response, and the first line is already sung..)

Dood, looks like a bunch of unprofessional kids, and can sound way worse.

As always, YMMV.

Yes, the reissued 451s flatly suck, in comparison to the original plain 451 series. (silver tube, no switches)

Miles

[Spruce]

"I actually took molds of (someone else did really) my own ear canals.. uhh... latex yanks out all those pesky hairs.. OUCH!"

That'll cost you a dime, Miles... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

"Dood, looks like a bunch of unprofessional kids, and can sound way worse.
As always, YMMV."

You gotta really practice, and record your practices, to get the one-mic thing to work both visually and sonically...

But when it works, it really works...

Listen to just about any Del soundboard recording, and they are usually spot on in terms of the balance between the instruments and vocals.

There's a Steve Earle/McCourys recording of a show in Sweden that was recorded with 2 4033s off the soundboard that just kills the original recording of "The Mountain"...

So, it can be a very effective way to go...

"So, for your typical bluegrass group, like maybe Del McCoury or Rhonda Vincent, they'd be better off using a multi mic setup with monitors, with either SDCs or even dynamics? (live, i'm talking live here). If so, please explain."

I think Luthier was talking about an individual mic choice for mando, as opposed to an LDC to pick up the whole band...

Del and Rhonda approach the "one mic" approach in very different wyas, BTW...

Del uses 2 4033s these days (or at least the last time I saw them about a year ago), no monitors (or maybe light monitors at most), and no bass mic...

Rhonda uses 2 LDCs on stage as well (as I remember), in-ear monitors, and a bass DI or mic....

Both sound fine even in large venues...

[Luthier Vandross]

Yaya... there are a few people who are artists, in most every sense of the word..

It's good for some folks, but I have seen way more guys who *think* it's working for them.. they would be amazed if they took Bruce's advice, and recorded a couple times.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Dang! We ain't good! ;)


M

[Zed]

We've been recording ourselves in various configurations of 1, 2 and 3 mic setups to see exactly what's going on. And yes, it certainly does take much practice and learning to do it right. That's the key. But like Spruce says, when it's working it's good. The simplicity of the setup is another big factor that makes it very appealing.

The big deal for us... specifically our guitar picker.. is that with no monitors you have play on faith that what's coming out the mains is a good mix. You have to build that faith by recording and listening and adjusting until you have it right.

[Spruce]

"The big deal for us is that with no monitors you have play on faith that what's coming out the mains is a good mix."

If you are indeed using a one-mic setup, it's amazing how the band's close proximity to one another onstage allows you to hear one another, making the lack of monitoring not that big of a deal...
I think it can really help things out in the harmony department, too...
A tad of bass through the monitor (if you're micing the bass) helps too...

"The simplicity of the setup is another big factor that makes it very appealing."

I like, both as an audience member and player, the choreography that results from a one-mic setup.
It cuts the shoe-gazing to a minimum...