They say there are no stupid questions so...

[cedarhog]

I am trying to have one of those lightbulb moments and I think someone in here will say something that will make that light go off. My question is where do "licks" fit into a song when playing a melody. I hear many people lick it up and it sounds great and I often wonder if they know where they are suppose to go or can they go anywhere.

Perhaps an example...take a song like "Nine Pound Hammer"

the verses are I, IV, I, V, I and the chorus starts on the leftover I from the verse and goes IV, I, V, I So where would be good places to put licks in? Later in life I might figure some of this stuff out on my own but for now I don't mind being spoon fed. Is there a "formula" or a rule of thumb I can use so when I'm learning licks I'll know how to use them. Just so that first example isn't a fluke let me give another example of a song and you tell me where and why a lick might go where it goes. Then when I compare where they went in both songs the light bulb might start to flicker in my head.

How about "Ashes of Love" the song is a I, IV, V, I, IV, V, I progression



and lastly how about a slow one "In the Pines"

its a I, IV, I, V, I, IV, I, V, I progression. Are there common places to stick licks? Thanks in advance to those that will take the time to answer, and hopefully this didn't qualify as a stupid question.

[billkilpatrick]

by "licks" i take it that you mean the little "deedle-deedle-deet-deet-dees" that get thrown in between chord changes as lead in's.

if so ... the ones i use are short, very simple and would probably be played by bass, if i was in a band and they listened to what i had to say. there are those who could probably point to a sheet of notation and say with mathematical precision, when/where these licks should begin but i rely totally on ear and by following the music playing in my head - if it fits right and sounds good in there, chances are it will sound ok on the mandolin.

might not be quite what you're looking for but it's what i do.

[Mike Bromley]

One trick is to phrase where the vocals aren't. Listen to BB King, for instance. His guitar is phrased much like his singing voice, so when it fills in the spaces between vocal 'licks' it sort of serves the same purpose in the music, to compliment the empty pockets.

[Fretbear]

There's nothing wrong with the question, it's just a hard one to answer. Any bunch of notes that are not "out" and are played in time, are "licks", even if they happen to be just the melody played straight. Licks have the characteristic of fitting in exactly with the chords they are played over, but also having the freedom to not (necessarily) be associated with the melody. They can be stuck into the natural pauses between the melodic phrases to tie them together, that is a good place to start. As you mentioned "Nine Pound Hammer", Jack Tottle uses that exact tune in his Oak book "Bluegrass Mandolin" to exactly convey what you are asking about. He first plays the melody dead straight, and then shows how to play it "hot" using licks to drive and manipulate the time as his solos get further and further away from the song's melody.

[OldSausage]

A lot of the most distinctive licks in bluegrass are played over the V and I chords at the end of the second and fourth line of the song. So in a song like Nine Pound Hammer, the first time through, I would usually play more or less the melody over the "Oh the nine pound hammer/It's a little too heavy/Buddy for my size" lines, and then I would put in a more fancy lick that fit over the V-I resolution in the last line, and I would usually tail it with a filler lick over the I chord.

The second time through I would start out with the melody, but the when I got to the 2nd line, "It's a little too heavy" where it goes to the IV chord, I would often also use a fancy lick that I know fits well over that chord. Usually licks are based around either individual chords or resolutions of one chord to another. You really have to get the lick under your skin and know it very well because you need to have your lick right in terms of both the timing and the chords.

Sometimes people make disparaging remarks about "copying and pasting" licks into songs, but I have found that to do it tastefully and accurately requires me to practice each lick, and practice working it into songs, for a long time, and it can take many months to get new licks to the point where they come naturally enough to include it in an improvisation on stage. Think of them instead as words in your musical vocabulary. The more words you know, the more interesting things you can say.

[Martian]

I was wondering how to answer this when I read Mikes take on the question and I couldn't agree more with him. His first part was perfect; LISTEN to the vocals and play where he is not,and a great example is B B King. I play banjo way more than anything else these days and the best banjo comes from being where others are not. In an interview with J D, (needs no last name), and is the expert on backup, he was even quoted on saying he developed a style of backing up another instrument when they were playing backup, but tasteful picking could only come through participation not domination. Hows that Elk mando doing these days? I don't know if we addressed CH"s question, so I will have another wack at it. A buddy of mine told me when he was learning a new lick, he learned it by sticking it wherever and whenever he could, even to excess, and somewhere he found the perfect place for it and had learned the lick very well by sticking it where it didn't go

[Darren Bailey]

I think the best way to understand when and how is to listen to lots of records. You'll quickly get a sense of what Monroe, Grisman et al are doing and it will influence your own playing. I couldn't give a technical explanation of what seems right, butt when your ears start to get the feeling then you know.

[allenhopkins]

Original question: "where do 'licks' fit into a song when playing a melody?" Not when backing a vocal, or doing an improvisation above a chord sequence (though the OP expressed the songs in terms of their chords).

"Licks," which I interpret as note patterns that follow the chords, but don't necessarily follow the melody, and may be repeated, fit when the melody doesn't "need" to be expressed -- example: where there's a held note, and it's replaced by a little lick rather than a tremolo for the entire note value. They also fit between the lines of the melody, at the end of a phrase and in transition to the next phrase.

They're a bit different from "fills," which are a kind of licks often played behind vocals, which is what constitutes back-up. Back-up can also be played behind others' solos, if you're careful not to step on the solo instrument.

Licks used to enhance the melody are often considered to be ornamentation, and can, if not used tastefully, totally obscure the melody. I would use licks in between the phrases of a song like Nine Pound Hammer, after strongly stating the melody notes in a manner similar to a vocalist singing the words. And I would sometimes depart from the melody part-way through an instrumental break, or if I had to take a second break, and substitute licks around the chord pattern.

Quite a few bluegrass instrumentals, especially those written on the banjo, rather than fiddle tunes, are really just a bunch of licks strung together, IMHO. Due to the 5-string banjo's normal bluegrass playing style, these can be quite arpeggiated, rather than having a strong linear melody, and it can be a challenge for mandolin players, with their more linear-based instrument, to find effective instrumental breaks for these tunes. I hear many, myself included, playing a bunch of standard licks over the chord changes, with just a hint of the banjo "melody" to tell listeners that yes, you're really playing the same tune.

Much of mastering the "licks" concept comes from first listening, then experimenting. Not everything works, but a decent, experienced ear soon learns to separate the working from the non-working. I hope.

[Jim]

Sometimes when playing a quarter, half or whole note I find that a few extra notes can be fit into that space without destroying the melody, It's usually best if the passage ends(resolves) on whatever note is next in the melody though a harmony note can work too. Pentatonic scales are quite useful for this though they can be over done. The answers are all in the scales related to the chord you are playing over and of course your ears ability to pick out the notes that express what you are trying to express. Also the restraint required to not fill up every space in the tune.

[cedarhog]

good info so far...let me dabble further.

I think I have a pretty good ear. I can hear chord changes and anticipate things in songs I've never heard before. In my head I can hear the melody by listening to the singer or listening to the first person playing the melody on their instrument. I guess I can also hear where I want a lick to go, but I guess I don't understand the theory of how to start them and how to finish them. And I have a real problem trying to type my question:)

So I'll make an attempt to ask another question with an example.

If I am playing a 1,4,5 song and I want a lick to go either at the begining of the 5 or the end of the 5 chords progression does the lick start on the 5 chord note? If the 5 is D does the lick start on a D and end on a D? IF I want a lick to go from the 5 to the begining of the 1 chord and the 5 being D do I start a lick with the D note and end on a G being that is the begining of the next verse? Ugg I'm so bad and trying to ask this question in writing.

So far many of you are very good at decoding what I might be asking. Even if you miss it a little I still learn from what you thought I meant.

I think my lightbulb moment will be when I understand what note a lick starts on and ends on and what are the factors that determine that.......

Lastly..my elk mandolin has been a true pleasure to play and it sounds so clean and clear......and if need be is a banjo killer.

[Mandolin Mick]

Well, one thing that you'll notice is that, at least in bluegrass ... a mandolinist who sings, like Bill Monroe, only plays fills and solos when he isn't singing. Someone like Red Rector played licks in interesting places because he generally wasn't singing. A good player plays licks to decorate the music like a Christmas tree. It shouldn't be about "Look what I can do!"

[allenhopkins]

CH, I don't think there's a single answer to your question -- but as a rule, a "lick" (by which I gather you mean a figure that connects two chords when the chords change -- are you thinking of something like a guitar bass run?), starts on a note that's included in the first chord, and ends on a note that's included in the second chord. You're apparently putting licks in between the lines of a song, or in between verse and chorus. It doesn't have to be the root note (G for a G chord, D for a D chord, etc.), but it should be a note that's compatible with the chord being played.

An interesting lick is one that emphasizes the 7th note when a chord changes to a 7th -- e.g., one that ends on an F note when the chord is changing from G to G7 just before you go to the C chord (I'm putting all these examples in the key of G since that's one that bluegrass people use a lot of the time). The kind of transitional links you're talking about, should underline the chord change -- tell the audience that "something's going to happen now" just before it happens.

Hope we're getting closer to the information you want. Again, several posters have emphasized listening to mandolinists who do what you're trying to do, and copying their approach if not the actual licks they use. So much of this comes with experience, just playing the music over and over until you don't have to spend much thought on what to do next.

[cedarhog]

I might be saying lick when I mean run so let me give another example. I will use "Nine Pound Hammer" In my example we will pretend that I am playing a break and sticking to the melody represented by the words I will type. and the (deedle daddles that I type is where I want the "lick" information).


Well this nine pound hammer(deedle daddle deedle doo) is a little to heavy(deedle do) for my size, buddy for my size (deedle deedle deedle doo)


so if I am playing in G.....and those lines above are instrumental...during the "deedles" portion and since many are familiar with this song....what note would you start that lick on that leaves the melody and what note should you come back to, to pick back up on the melody represented by the lyrics?


P.S. I will never have the mind set of "look what I can do"...thats not who I am.

[D C Blood]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is who plays the licks and fills...Many bands arrange it so that the instrument who has the next lead break will be the one doing the licks during the verse before. e.g. mando fills and backup licks = mando takes next break. Banjo does licks and fills, = banjo has next break. Some songs one instrument will lick and fill the first half of a verse then another takes the backup for the second half of the verse. To be a really tight band, the fills and backup licks have to be as precisely worked out as the lead breaks. Also, two instruments shouldn't be "licking" and filling at the same time, unless maybe they're doing little harmony licks.

[GRW3]

Well first you better go back and rethink 'Nine Pound Hammer'...

It's a continuous repetition of I IV I V I

Over and Over and Over until you finish

First learn the tune and go from there.

[cedarhog]

Why would I need to re think the song. I know the song...if I typed it wrong...then just pretend it was a mistake....and go with the spirit of the question instead of finding holes in the question that I am having a hard time putting into words.;)

[Pete Martin]

There is no "rule", but if you transcribe enough solos you'll find there are tendencies. I have mapped out many of them and use them with students just beginning to solo. It can help lesser experienced players to have some kind of strategy for what to put where in a solo.

If you send me an email to pete@petimarpress.com, I can send some pdf files to you that have common places folks put melody and licks in soloing.

[GRW3]

Why would I need to re think the song. I know the song...if I typed it wrong...then just pretend it was a mistake....and go with the spirit of the question instead of finding holes in the question that I am having a hard time putting into words.;)

Well I took you at your word that you believed the verse starts on the I chord and the chorus starts on the IV. They both start on the I chord. The melody is very simple, there is no difference between the verse and the chorus. It just repeats over and over. All this makes it a super jam tune.

So I say to rethink it because (short of an interesting regional version) either you're not hearing it right or you have a bad written version.

The first word in the verse stanza is 'Hammer'. 'Oh the nine pound' is the lead in. The first word in the chorus stanza is 'buddy'. 'So roll on' is the lead in. It jumps from chord to chord on logical verbal stepping stones (Ex: Hammer to Heavy to Size). So learn how to play the basic melody hitting those points as your first 'break'. The melody is always in order as a break. Particularly if it follows a freestyle break (two measure G trick, two measure C trick, one measure G trick, one measure D trick, G run, G lead to start over). It's a particularly good fallback when the song starts smokin, approaching the limits of singing.

To expand this, state the phrase and fill. Maybe something as simple as a tremolo to prevent dead space. Since the standard mode is for a break on Nine Pound Hammer to cover the same 16 bars as verse/chorus you could do something like state the tune on the first pass and then fancy it up on the second.

When people write out the lyrics they usually do it like poetry. So Nine Pound Hammer would be


Oh the Nine Pound Hammer
It's a little too Heavy
For my size, buddy,
For my size

Musically it's more like:


Oh the nine pound (intro)
Hammer, is a little too
Heavy, for my
Size,
Buddy, for my
Size

Another thing is that when people write down songs the chording is often wrong or misplaced. For the former issue, try to match the lyrics to a standard recording. The latter is often the result of copy and paste issues.

If the chords appear above the text make sure it is being displayed in a non-proportional, non-leading format like 'courier'. Don't let Microsoft (or any other word processor vendor) mess your lyrics up.

[Patrick Hull]

I would second the BB King suggestion. Then do just what the blues guy do a lot...pay some fills and frills around the vocals or the melody using the pentatonic scale. They use a "box" on the fretboard which contains the 1 2 3 5 6 notes. Then they just sort of pick around the box. At least starting out. You can do it on mando. Take the key of G. go to the D and A strings and play around on the 0, 2d and 5th frets. This will give you a little pentatonic "box." Usually start your lick on the 5 note or the open D string in the case of the key of G. But, just about any note you play in there n those strings at those frets will fit in somewhere or lead you in a harmonic way to one that will. Play along with some recordings (maybe you have to make your own box for other keys)....D is right next door on the A and E strings...same frets...Use your natural sense of rhythm and in about an hour you'll be just filling and hittin hot licks all over the place.

[AlanN]

I know what you mean, CH (heck, I'm a mando picker...).

For NPH in A:

For your deedles, try running the A blues scale, with taste. One example would be 0-3-5-6-7(0 on E string) on the A string. Larry Rice, Jim Gaudreau often played something similar.