Bullet Time

[GRW3]

You know the concept from the movies. Somebody fires a bullet and the time slows down so you can see it. Reportedly, expert marksmen can actually track a bullets flight. Major league pitchers and batters see the path of the ball clearly. So, I've been thinking...

Does playing at speed require that you be able to hear at speed? If you cannot distinguish sixteenth notes at 240 how can you play them?

The questions come from my dogged efforts with a metronome. I find as I push up the speed progressively that I can literally hear faster. When I go faster initally it sounds muddy but as I practice clarity comes. Maybe my technique improves too but I believe I have a real change in how I listen. I note that in jam sessions I have a much easier time in hearing, identifying and connecting with the melody being played.

[JeffD]

There may well be something in what you say. Hard to say.

I know that folks who predominantly play chords often seem not to be able to hear the melody. Is it because they are concentrating on something that changes at a slower rate?

[SHORTY]

I just completed a semester with the East Tennessee State University Bluegrass Class. I also had Adam Steffy as my one on one and private teacher. While I concentrated mainly on rythem cords while in the ETSU band class I found it progressively became easier to hear the cords and base rythem. Concentrating playing the cords in a group made me aware to listen more intently to the music. When I made a beat mistake (many) or missed a cord change it became easier to jump back in the bands rythem.
I must admit I never played with anyone befor going to ETSU. It sure was worth my time being there. I'll go again at next falls semester. I will also continue to take lessons from Adam. I started kinda late, 59yrs. but loving every minute of bluegrass.
Shorty

[farmerjones]

i think one of the semi-secondary benefits of working with a metronome is it's got to help develope descriminate hearing. Not only do you have to hear yourself, but the nome too. That alone is a big step in musicianship. Speed that puppy up, your hearing has to get even more descriminate.
Cool:cool:

[Pete Martin]

16th notes at 240!!! Wow, that is way faster than I've heard anyone play. Tal Farlows Cherokee is 400, 1/8th notes. That would be 200 in 16th note time.

I'm not easily impressed by a players speed, but I would be at 240!!!!!!!

[Patrick Bouldin]

I just completed a semester with the East Tennessee State University Bluegrass Class. I also had Adam Steffy as my one on one and private teacher. While I concentrated mainly on rythem cords while in the ETSU band class I found it progressively became easier to hear the cords and base rythem. Concentrating playing the cords in a group made me aware to listen more intently to the music. When I made a beat mistake (many) or missed a cord change it became easier to jump back in the bands rythem.
I must admit I never played with anyone befor going to ETSU. It sure was worth my time being there. I'll go again at next falls semester. I will also continue to take lessons from Adam. I started kinda late, 59yrs. but loving every minute of bluegrass.
Shorty

You're lucky, Adam is my instructor too, but via his DVD - which he lived in Texas!

[GRW3]

On reflection I probably mixed metaphors, straight and cut time. If every beat is a quarter note then I'm thinking of eighths. If every beat is an eighth I'm thinking of sixteenths. That is, is boom-chuck two quarters or two eighths? Either way the old DUDU really flies at 240.

Yes, it is true that hearing the metronome and the note at the same time is the aural equivalent of patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. That hearing practice helps in jams because I can isolate the bass or song leader when others are drifting off tempo around me.

Roland White got me into using a metronome. He said "You tend to speed, get a metronome and use it." Yes, sir.

When playing casually there is no reward for being the 'keeper of the rules' as far a tempo goes so I usually just try to follow the guy doing the song. Speed up, slow down, vamp while he located the next verse, etc. I wanted the brain one of the local guitar guys the other night. A guy well known for speed issues (he will actually tap both feet in independent beats) I was following him in his usual practice of speeding the chorus and slowing back on the verse and so was a pretty good banjo player. He turned to us and said we were speeding up. He was too self absorbed to see the 'if looks could kill' moment we shared.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If you learn to play by ear,as i did on Banjo & have done for over 45 years,you do indeed learn to listen more quickly,you develop a 'quick ear'. One other thing,being able to 'hear in your head' what you're playing (or trying to play),also comes to be a natural thing to do as well.You have to hear it in your mind before your fingers can get it out onto the instrument,that's for beginers & high flyers both !.
One thing to remember is that all too often,playing at a very quick tempo can kill a tune stone dead with regard to melody. Music played way too fast (& we've all heard it),seems simply 'frantic'.
One of my favourite Banjo tunes to play,is one by Richard Underwood,the first Johnson Mt.Boys Banjo picker - "5-Speed" & as fast as you'd like.The 'other' version,recorded when Tom Adams was in the band "Live At The Old Schoolhouse", is just a 'thrash' (IMHO),
Ivan

[Patrick Bouldin]

Yeah, Ivan - it's taken me a few years to be not so intimidated by my inability to match speed with someone. Couple of things I've learned - the first thing is, sometimes folks run high song tempos but maybe pick half the notes per measure as I might, so it's not right to beat myself up if I'm not keeping up - I need to adjust something.

2nd thing is, I'm no longer embarrassed to say to my bandmates "can we slow it down so I can play pretty?" That was a REAL tough one to learn. And if they don't want to slow down then I can just chop along, their choice, but I've decided that I don't want to sound like moosh. Doesn't mean I don't challenge myself, I do, but I won't continue to beat my head against the wall if I'm profusely bleeding!! So far so good, usually they are happy to oblige because they're interested in a quality production.

Patrick

[JeffD]

One thing to remember is that all too often,playing at a very quick tempo can kill a tune stone dead with regard to melody. Music played way too fast (& we've all heard it),seems simply 'frantic'.

That is true, and all too common.

[JeffD]

I must admit I never played with anyone befor going to ETSU. It sure was worth my time being there.


Playing with others is one of the best things you can do to accelerate your development. Improves the ear, improves timing, improves speed and accuracy, slows down playing, improves confidence, adds reality to our self expecations, adds motivation to private practice, adds excitement and fun, creates new friends.

Speaking of bullets, playing with others is the magic bullet.

For every one out there - take every opportunity possible to play with other people.

I met a woman at a old time festival who was learning banjo, and had some pretty good technique down. In conversation she admitted she never played music with other people. She was "waiting" till she was good enough. That strategy is impossible. Its like not getting behind the wheel until you are a good driver.

[Mandoviol]

Playing with others is one of the best things you can do to accelerate your development. Improves the ear, improves timing, improves speed and accuracy, slows down playing, improves confidence, adds reality to our self expecations, adds motivation to private practice, adds excitement and fun, creates new friends.

Speaking of bullets, playing with others is the magic bullet.

For every one out there - take every opportunity possible to play with other people.

I met a woman at a old time festival who was learning banjo, and had some pretty good technique down. In conversation she admitted she never played music with other people. She was "waiting" till she was good enough. That strategy is impossible. Its like not getting behind the wheel until you are a good driver.

You're absolutely right about that; playing with others does help, especially if they play the same instrument you do. I usually tend to play by myself, mainly because either nobody else around me plays an instrument, or we're all too busy to actually get together and jam. Last week, though, I got together with a mandolinist and a guitarist I know and played around for a few hours. It really makes a difference in your playing, being able ot hear other people and play off them, that is. I think that comes from all my years as a violinist in an orchestra, because in an orchestra setting, you're listening to/watching the guys in your own section and the other 4+ sections around you as well as watching the conductor to make sure you know where you're supposed to be. Playing with others in a less instrument intensive setting helps in the same way--you know when to let off to let another guy have a moment to solo, then he lets off to let you have one, then you're doing back-up for a little while while the guitarist has a riff or two--it all helps.

I'll have to dig up some other instrumentalists over Christmas, or maybe keep recording myself playing different parts on Premiere and meshing them together. That's like playing with others, right? :grin:

[JeffD]

That's like playing with others, right? :grin:

:))

I'm not saying anything.

:)) :whistling:

[Rob Gerety]

Playing with others is one of the best things you can do to accelerate your development. Improves the ear, improves timing, improves speed and accuracy, slows down playing, improves confidence, adds reality to our self expecations, adds motivation to private practice, adds excitement and fun, creates new friends.

Yes, yes, yes. Not to mention if you don't play with others you miss out on those occasional magical moments when you get locked in tight as a drum with someone - lord that keeps me coming back. Makes my hair stand up on the back of my neck at times.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote :- "can we slow it down so I can play pretty?" Patrick,for my money you've nailed it !. I learned a long time ago that 'melody' is (almost) everything. Most pickers of all Bluegrass instruments can pick fast if they need to,but picking fast & retaining a great 'tune' isn't easy.
For me,nice 'medium tempo' tunes that i can dig into & play around with (in the melodic sense) are what i really enjoy & fortunately,so do the guys i get to play with on occasion - nobody wants to turn our picking sessions into a race,
Ivan;)

[Bertram Henze]

...That's like playing with others, right? :grin:

:) Yeah, exactly what the words say: It's not the real thing, it's just LIKE the real thing. In other words: better than nothing is not enough. :cool:

[Kevin Briggs]

I have found that practicing the way you describe can do amazing things.

When i was practicing like crazy up until about a year ago, I could play everything clean, and could build a song up to almost any speed I wanted. I would do things like play it 10 times on a particular metronome speed each day, increasing by 10 beats or whatever. Within a five day week I was 50 beats faster than before, and it was all clean. This was in conjunction with whatever other practicing I was doing. I put in a least an hour a day for about four years.

So, while the speeds you mention are really fast, I have to believe that they are possible and that you do train your brain somehow to be able to follow that music. I know it made me view Chris Thile and all of those insane players a little differently. Mostly, it made me view them as people who have the luxury of practicing all of the time.

It's kind of like the old adage, "writers write and writers read." The more a writer does of both the more the writer will be able to do of both.

Nice thread!

[Patrick Bouldin]

I have found that practicing the way you describe can do amazing things.

........ I put in a least an hour a day for about four years. ......


Nice thread!

Kevin,

I'm not surprised to hear you say this. Someone "in the business for real" told me that Thile practices literally 8 hours a day on that mandolin. That seems like an impossible amount - but it does go to demonstrate that it really is a matter of commitment, effort and LONG lasting dogma (or perserverence). I can't remember who said this but he was a successful baseball pro, I think he was catcher, anyway, said something to the effect "just about any, even "average" person, can be a professional baseball player, that you just work as hard as you can on the art, day in, day out. Probably goes with just about everything.

Patrick

[J.Albert]

RE:
"One of my favourite Banjo tunes to play,is one by Richard Underwood,the first Johnson Mt.Boys Banjo picker - "5-Speed" & as fast as you'd like."

Totally off-topic, but funny you mentioned that, as I've always liked that tune, too. Unlike too many "hot pickers", Richard had a knack at writing relatively basic melodies that have broad appeal and stand the test of time.

Come to think of it, the same could be said for Dave McLaughlin's tunes on the mandolin...

- John

[John Flynn]

Reportedly, expert marksmen can actually track a bullets flight.
That is one of the most ridiculous assertions I have ever heard. I shot rifle and pistol competitively in the Navy and officially qualified "Expert" in both. It is physically impossible to track a bullets flight with the naked eye and there is no reason you would even want to. Once the bullet is in flight, there is nothing more the shooter can do. Shooting is about controlling sight picture and trigger squeeze. That's it. Bad example.

[Mike Snyder]

If the bullet is slow, the light just right, yeah, you can see it. Shooting gar off a bridge with the sun going down behind us, with a .22. John is correct. Worst possible thing to try at the range.

[Merritt]

That is one of the most ridiculous assertions I have ever heard. I shot rifle and pistol competitively in the Navy and officially qualified "Expert" in both. It is physically impossible to track a bullets flight with the naked eye and there is no reason you would even want to.

I respectfully disagree. I've been able to see bullets in flight and I'm an amateur shooter. I don't think it has anything to do with marksmanship or shooting skills.

1. My buddy has a small range off his porch for small caliber shooting. In the afternoon, when the sun is behind the shooter, you can easily see bullets in flight. They appear as white flashes or white streaks. It goes without saying, they are very fast. You can stand behind the shooter's shoulder and watch the bullets. Even though this was just a lucky byproduct of the way his little range is configured, it does serve a practical purpose. Seeing the bullets in flight provides instant feedback for a shooter. You can actually adjust your aim without slowing down to look through the sights. It's a lot of fun to shoot that way. I don't know how to describe it, but you actually start to feel the shots. I only saw the bullets from .22's, other calibers were just too fast.

2. When we set up a 1,000 yard target, the spotter can see the bullet's wake pass through the mirage. Granted, you don't always see the actual bullet, but it's close enough for discussion. We were using a .308 and a nice spotting scope. When I was the spotter, I would always flinch from the big boom. When I learned to quickly recover from the flinch, I started to watch the bullet in flight to the target. Took me about 15-20 attempts. The wake of the bullet looked like a cone. The shooter very very rarely saw it because the kick of the gun bumped the scope picture off target. I can easily direct my buddy to adjust his aim by a lot or a little and the resulting shot will hit the target. This is the reason why military snipers work in tandem with a spotter. It's a common phenomenon for long range shots and there are many resources to corroborate my story. Without the spotter's feedback to the shooter, the long range shots become much much more difficult.

Getting back to the original post and music . . .

I suspect the original poster has found an effective way to train his ear to more effectively hear fast notes. Hearing fast notes and correctly interpreting them is analogous to indentifying chords, sight singing, or copying a melody. The fact that you work up your own speed and play fast notes on your mandolin is important. Your mind effectively receives two big inputs. You hear the fast notes at the same time that you feel the fast notes. These are examples of auditory and kinetic learning. Lots of stuff out there describing visual, auditory, and kinetic learning types. I would expect you to always learn faster and more effectively with more inputs for the same information, especially when the inputs are perfectly synchronized in the the original post's description.

Back in the day, before the internet, it was rare to come across written music or tablature for the stuff in which I was interested. As a kid, I had to rely on my own ears to copy a recorded solo or learn a chord progression from a casette tape. I wasn't very good at it in the beginning. I didn't know it was ear training at the time, but I got better at it with each attempt. As my playing skills became better, my hearing skills became better and vice versa. They almost always compliment each other. Maybe always?

As a side note - I think that ear training is not like riding a bike. In my experience, if I don't practice and use the skils, they quickly start to fade away. I studied music education in college and took four required semesters of ear training/sight singing. If forced to take a test today, I would surely fail all of the stuff I handled with ease back in college. Perhaps for the lucky schmucks that have perfect pitch, it's a different story. I certainly can't comment on that. :)