Are the new under 1,000.O0 a new age?

[Rick Schmidlin]

There is alot going on with The Loar, Kentucky and Eastman that entry level players can be happy about. At this price point is this a new age for budget mandolins?

[allenhopkins]

"New age" -- might be a bit strong -- but there are surely more choices for players with budget restrictions than I remember in the past. When I started out around 1970 there were used Gibsons, which you could get then for $250 or so, and American-made student grades like Harmony and Kay. Sometimes you might run across an older Lyon & Healy, Bacon, etc., and there were Martin mandolins. I remember when Asian-made instruments first started showing up in the '70's.

Now there are many more choices. Unfortunately, there's a lot of junk as well. Several American companies have stuck their nameplates on fairly unimpressive imports. But if a beginner knows what to do, or gets good advice, he/she can find an instrument for $200-500 that's excellent to learn on, sounds decent, and can be a "keeper" for several years or more.

Upside and downside to the "global economy." Long-standing American companies closed up, unable to meet the competition. But from the consumer's point of view, many more choices, reasonable prices, and pretty wide distribution.

[rbird]

What is a good choice for a budget mandolin in a, 2point and f styles in the $200-$500 range?

This might be beating a dead horse or maybe someone can point me to another thread...

[allenhopkins]

Plenty of other threads; here's (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56988) a pretty good recent one. The Rover RM-75, a solid-wood F-style, came out as decent choice in the sub-$500 range.

[bobb]

I'm certainly happy with my Rover RM-75.

[Steve Ostrander]

Kentucky km505.

[Scott Crabtree]

Buy used

^^^I'm sorry I meant "distressed" ;-)

[swampy]

I think the biggest difference today are the materials.

My first mando was a plywood epiphone bought new in 1999.

10 yrs later, for the same amount of money I could get a slightly better mandolin with solid woods.

[chip]

Considering these are pumped out by hundreds daily it still seems high to me vs. handmade, plus the .25 an hour paid in pacrim countries they should probably be in the $250 range at best....IMO

[Hans]

Buy American.

[allenhopkins]

Buy American.

I buy American, British, Asian, new and used, old and recent, whatever. Country of origin is fairly far down my list of selection criteria.

However, recognize where this thread started: a "new age for budget mandolins." What are my choices in new, American-made mandolins for less than $1K? Big Muddy, Gypsy (I think), Redline Traveler, Breedlove Quartz 00 (just over $1K) -- there may be more that I don't know of, but not that extensive a selection.

Any carved-top, F-style "bluegrass" mandolins among them? No. For the price the OP mentioned, you're pretty much limited to flat-top A-style instruments if you "buy American." Like it or not, there are a lot of buyers out there who would like to own a carved-top, solid-wood, F-style mandolin for less than $1K -- less than $500, even. They're going to buy Rovers and Kentuckies and Eastmans and The Loars and JBoviers and all the other Asian instruments that are available.

There is nothing that can be done about this. All parts of the world are buying from and selling to each other, and specializing in what each area does best. Asia can provide lower-cost hand-crafting than the US, so those industries that use that skill have migrated there. Fifty years from now, as Asian wages continue to rise and transportation costs increase, things may be different. The "new age" that the OP suggests, is built around the availability of quality instruments imported from Asia (and to a lesser extent, eastern Europe). As someone who's been buying mandolins for 35+ years, I've seen that change gather momentum.

There is more parity at the top of the instrumental hierarchy; the highest-quality factory mandolins, and the largest share of high-end small-builder and individual-luthier instruments, are still US-made, and if you're after a high-end professional instrument, chances are it's American (with the exception of Gilchrist, Sumi, and other foreign individual builders). But we're talking "budget instruments" here, and even decent used American-made instruments are often out of the sub-$1K price range.

I say "buy American" if you want the best -- but if you want the most affordable, are just starting out, have a limited budget, but want a well-made, carved-top, solid-wood new mandolin, you're going to have to "buy Asian."

[Rick Schmidlin]

Buy American.


I understand your thought, but as long as the builders are in fair trade I support the world. Also that represent your fine work :) to other nations a well.:mandosmiley:

[Eric Taylor]

I just purchased my first mando- a Michael Kelly Legacy Deluxe for $550 new, and I have to say that for the money it's great. I was told that MK has really stepped up as far as quality control in the past couple of years. I played an Eastman at my local music store before settling on the MK, and it had a much warmer (and louder) tone to it, but it also cost twice as much. I'm a college student with a lot of student loans, and I can't afford to spend $1000 on an instrument, or $550 for that matter:), but my MK seems to be working out well. Hope you find a good one!!

Eric

[JEStanek]

Well, as for buying an American made archtop/backed bluegrass mandolin under $1k it can be done by a few builders. Howard Morris's isntruments come to mind.

There are a handful of builders making flat top instruments under $1K in the US (see Allan's post).

I honestly believe there has been a quantum quality lead up in the imported sub $500 instruments since I have joined the Café. Certainly, not across the board for all Chinese import companies but many. As we scan through the threads on what starter instrument to buy with a limit of $200-$500 we see some common names again and again lately. These will, if history repeats, change over time as companies change over time or cease to exist.

Country of origin isn't as important to many hobby, novice players. Getting an instrument that stays in tune and intonates without breaking the limited budget is. Believe me, should I find my skills greatly improved (or just have the extra cash-ola) there are several American builders on my list. My skills and certainly my finances aren't likely to change in the near future.

So, do I think this represents a new age of sub $1000 mandolins, no. I think the market is filling the void of an educated buying audience.

Jamie

[fishtownmike]

I think this is why mandolin is starting to take off more. It use to be that you couldnt get a decent mandolin for under 2 grand. This used to scare people away from the mandolin. Especially parents shopping for a child. Some of these lower priced mandos sound pretty good....Mike

[Big Joe]

I do think we are in the new golden age of lutherie. The available knowledge and tools are so much improved from when I started that is hard to imagine. We could not have dreamed of such a thing. We had to figure out how to make our own tools, and often never even met anyone else who did this kind of work. There were few...if any...means of finding information except just get in and root, hog, or holler. Over time some magazines began to help expand our horizons and then the computer changed the world (I am not quite sure if it is for the better yet...) and we began to find our contemporaries. Now there is so much information available and access to the luthiers is so much better than ever before that the art has mushroomed.

This being true does equate to every price spectrum of the industry. For the pac rim instruments the real change has come in recent years as we have taken not only the basics to manufacturing to them, but the nuances of making great instruments. Those companies that are making the best instruments in the orient are often being overseen by American luthiers who know how to build a good instrument and demand quality that was often missing in the past. As the skill level of the worker in the east has improved, the instruments themselves improve.

Labor costs are less there, but they are rising faster than ours. Still, it costs less to build there because of much more than just labor costs. Factor in the much less restrictive regulations, tax structures, and government subsidies and ownership of many of the facilities. These things allow the price point to be determined by much more than market conditions. They have continually improved the quality of the woods, hardware, building techniques, and finish. This again, is largely due to oversight by western luthiers who have demanded a much higher quality product than in the past. We can get a mandolin that is far superior to what was available not too many years ago for very little money. It may not be quite pro quality, but they are very playable and even sound reasonably good. The same is true for both guitars and mandolins. Violins have been at that level for quite awhile.

I am firmly a "buy American" person. I am a patriot and love our country with all I have and I am so thankful for the brave young men and women who are defending our nation. I do buy American for those things I can get that are American...even if I have to pay a premium. However, there are times when one cannot. I am thankful that there are options for us that provide a quality product for a fair price. I usually think of them as stepping stones to the instruments of our dreams, not always a final resting place.

Then again, many American companies have allowed quality to be lessened to achieve a certain number of instruments produced. The names we have revered in the industry have seen quality issues due to high production demands to meet the demands of the modern world. I have seen a marked increase in quality of imported product and a marked decrease in quality of some American companies. This has not held true for the small builders who are fighting daily for survival...as most of us are...but for the big names (and no I won't mention them) they have made it hard for the musician to chose American when they can get as good or better product for a fraction of the price.

I would hope the current economic situation would have forced a return to reality to some of our most revered companies, but they are under such an incredible financial demand to continue operations that I don't think we will see them improve. I guess that opens the door for many of the luthiers of today who do build a superior product. Sales will likely to continue to improve for the good small luthiers, the import lines that do make a good product, and may well subside for those manufactures domestically that do not meet the same quality/ price standards.

These are just my observations and you may have a different view. Thank you.

[Mark Walker]

Joe - well thought-out and presented! (Which is the norm for you.) Great observations by Allen and Jamie as well.

My first mandolin was (is - I still have it) a PacRim "Lotus" A-5. It was more than adequate to learn on, and it's become my 'campfire' mandolin - even accompanying me to deer camp annually. I occasionally haul it to church when I feel like playing something different for a change, and it's served me admirably. But - as has been mentioned - it was a 'stepping stone' to something better, and that is my custom-made F5.
:) Cheers!

[tburcham]

:mandosmiley:I have a small shop instrument (Distressed Silverangel)...best mandolin I own-no one in the bizz makes an instrument with the distinct tonal qualities of Ken's mandolins..they're simply amazing!
:grin:I have a large company mandolin (Honey Colored Weber Yellowstone with Red Spruce top)...its an outstanding instrument that is my main performance mandolin...its loud, yet it has the Weber sweetness in tone..its even better since Big Joe did a bridge replacement and setup!
:)I have a "The Loar" LM-700-VS purchased and setup by Big Joe...its the third best instrument I own...but only by the thinnest of margins when compared to either of my American instruments...and its still green! I find myself playing it more and more...and the tone and power are getting better and better.

...so to answer the question originating this post...YES!

[Hans]

I'll say it one more time...buy American. Don't much care about my instruments, I'll be going on SS and disability soon. Might as well say it, I WON'T BE TAKING ORDERS MUCH LONGER. I'll build a few for consignment, but that's about it.
Frankly, I'm sick of whose playing what, endorsements (free instruments, "Gosh, what was that instrument that Jack Rohrshack was playing last nite"), comparisons, cheap #### with a lot of goo-gahs on it, and the sell out to the far east.
I've pretty much stopped buying anything not made in the USA. I'll run around in rags rather than buy cheap #### jeans, shirts, and those racing stripe "shoes" that are endorsed by some golfer with a wife and 13 girlfriends while being made by some kid 14 years old for 25 cents a day. I'll buy at Ragstock, Bibles for Missions and other used stores, I have enough Filson (made in USA) to last me the rest of my life, Red Wing, Gokey, and Alan Edmonds shoes (all USA).
No more new computers, AV equip, Cars, tools, and most of all, no WALLY WORLD.
So, you can all sell out to the rest of the world, won't be too long and the rest of the world will own us anyway.
Let's see how long this lasts...:popcorn:

[Geno]

If it's not too much trouble, could you also tell the rest of us slobs who to vote for, what religion to practice, and what deordorant to use.

[Hans]

Yer on your own slick...I could give a rip.

[Keith Erickson]

I'm going to come at it from a totally different angle....

I'm a capitalist true and true and I don't make any apologies about it. I'm from this school of thought: "It's better to have goods and services flow across borders than bullets and bombs." .....and I'm going to stop right there!!!!

It's probably safe to say that there are not too many pro mandolin players are touring with MK's. It's also probably safe to say that a beginner starting on the mandolin today will most likely not begin his learning and developing on a Gibson Distressed Master Model.

I wouldn't know where I would be if it wasn't for those pacrim's. If it wasn't for my experience with my MK, it's probably safe to say that I woudn't have pulled the trigger on my Ludewig. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Okay, if you would like to start and learn on a "Made In the USA" mandolin, why not take a stab at at Big Muddy? .....or how about a used Mid Mo when one shows up in the classifieds? The name escapes me, but there was a guy who was making awesome Student A models before he left for Gibson.

It doesn't matter where your mando is made or who made your mando. Just check out the mandolin market place and you'll find something that will be the perfect fit for you. You may be surprised on where MAS takes you!!!!!

:popcorn:

[GTG]

Pretty strong stuff, Hans - I can see where you're coming from, but I don't really agree. I think the global economics stuff has been discussed (and banned) before.

For what it's worth - lots of folks in the far east, fewer in the west compared to the means of production; thus, Asian labor is cheap and capital is (relatively) expensive, the reverse of North America & Europe. Just because that's the case doesn't mean it's fair to folks like yourself, though... sorry to hear you're thinking of closing shop soon; I hope to play one of your instruments someday.
Getting back to the original question, yeah, I guess increasing competition has been good for consumers - quality goes up, price goes down, just like the economists predicted. And any day now, I'm guessing, the mandolin will be taken up by some hot young pop act, and then watch out - the mando will suddenly be the next guitar, and the demand will fuel even more supply and competition. If this happens, hopefully it will mean more demand at all price points, so small builders' wares will still be desired.

[CoMando]

Hans, I agree with with a lot of what you say....I'm just not as bitter.

[allenhopkins]

I listened to the "buy American" people back in the '80's, especially Mr. Iacocca. Chrysler back then was making their (then) innovative mini-vans, and I bought a Dodge Caravan. Great car. But, when I took delivery, I found the body was made in Canada, the engine in Japan (Mitsubishi), the tires in France (Michelin). The car company wasn't "buying American," but they were talking the talk to get customers to buy their product.

Martin's been importing guitars and ukuleles for decades -- Sigma, Shenandoah, OS ukes from Mexico. Where would Fender be without Mexican Strats and P-Basses? Gibson took two fine American nameplates, Epiphone and Flatiron, and stuck 'em on lines of Asian instruments. Fender is building Guilds overseas, I understand. Am I being "disloyal" by buying a Takamine or an Eastman?

Like it or not, we have globalized our buying and selling. And it's not just cheap junk any more. My last two cars are Hondas, because the consumer press says they're the best value for the money. I can't get my transportation from a thrift shop.

If it's a "new age for budget mandolins," that's because there are good quality imported instruments available. As Big Joe astutely points out, American knowledge, craftspersonship and experience have been exported to the Asian builders, and the result is that we're importing their products.

And I predict we're about two posts away from a thread lockdown, as politics begins to pervade our discussion.

[Rick Schmidlin]

There is alot going on with The Loar, Kentucky and Eastman that entry level players can be happy about. At this price point is this a new age for budget mandolins?

Let's please remember the question I asked.:whistling:

[Big Joe]

Hans...I love ya brother! One day I hope to grow up and be able to get one of your mandolins. That is first class American product by a first class American!

[Keith Erickson]

Let's please remember the question I asked.:whistling:

Rick, I apologize :(

Getting back to your question.......it depends on what "your budget" is. When I 1st got my MK, I was looking at $900 - $1,000 as my budget. I was lucky enough to not only get a really nice mando, but I bought it well below the price I was looking to spend.

Back then I almost pulled the trigger on a Mid-Mo for less than the MK. I'm still kicking myself over that one :mad: ........but I live and learn.

I wish I could give you a cookie cutter answer but from what I can gather in what's showing up in the classifieds and with discussions here on the boards about brands, builders and country of origin, the market prices are kind of all over the place.

[mandroid]

Given inflation in a growth compulsory economy has pushed the cost of doing business up,
in the '1st world' , there was a hole left , and Importers went overseas where the wages are lower ,
and invested there , receive and ship, take a profit slice, and still get something in your hands
to make a bit of music on ..

simplifying the product , like flattop instruments without binding and other laborious extras
gets those big muddys etc. to work fine, made in the US,

but the scroll lovers have to pony up more cash or get something exported from the 'developing economies', .. that's the way of the game ..
:popcorn:

[Keith Erickson]

Has anyone checked out this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blog.php?b=214) from Scott's blog?

[Jim]

If I ever own a new american made Mandolin ( I've got 3 regals from the 20s & 30s ) it will be because I was able to get started playing on some very playable asian ( the US is a Pacrim ) instruments. I would love a fine Gibby and will probably own a Weber someday. But I got the bug because I was able to afford a functional mandolin and learn to play. Yes I feel it's the Golden age of low priced good quality instruments.

[Mandoviol]

The way I look at it, the rise of the Pac-Rim mandolin industry has probably broadened the instrument's horizons. Since there are now so many mandolins that cost $1000 and under (heck, there are tons that cost under $500), more people can actually purchase them and learn to play when they otherwise may not be able to afford an instrument a higher-priced instrument. Granted, there are differences between quality, tone, sustain, etc. in Pac-Rim instruments and instruments from small-shop luthiers, but having the availability of an instrument to play, in my opinion, far outstrips the question of its price.

Now I know what you're thinking: Yes, there are many mandolins around, but a lot of the cheap ones sound like cr@p. That may be true for some makers or models, but I feel that the Pac-Rim contribution has given new mandolinists (or relatively new mandolinists, like me) the option to become acquainted with the instrument so that, in future, they can figure out what they would like to have in a higher-quality mandolin. Thus, the Pac-Rim mandos can act as stepping stones for mandolinists looking for higher-quality instruments, and, by extension, can help luthiers make custom instruments.

[Geoff B]

The only mandolin I ever paid for straight-up was a $70 Rover. I'd been told that you can't get a "decent" mandolin under $3000. After a year and a half, and the Rover breaking, I began building them myself. I had my eye on a $1200 mandolin at one point, but it was too much for a college kid with a kid... I'm glad there is a market there for people who are interested in playing, but not willing/able to afford to invest a lot of money. I figure it doesn't matter how good it sounds if you don't know how to make it sound good. Once you earn that skill, then you upgrade to better sounding instruments. I'm currently learning to play violin on a $40 ebay special. If I learn how to control a bow, and where to put my fingers, I'll begin the move up to more expensive instruments that sound better, but I'm very glad there is a market for cheap instruments that can give people the means to pursue their passions--even if it is just a starting off point.

[sgarrity]

Has anyone checked out this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blog.php?b=214) from Scott's blog?

Some wise words from our site owner. I've always said buy the best mandolin you can afford and play the heck out of it!

There are some very good low cost options out there. Eastman makes adequate mandolins that look really good which will attract many newcomers to the instrument. Kentucky is in the same boat. The KM1500 is a little over the $1k mark but gets favorable reviews. I'd like to spend some time playing one.

As far as buying American, you can grab a Gypsy, Big Muddy, Pomeroy, or Arches flattop mandolin in that price range. The problem is it doesn't look like the other instruments at the bluegrass jam. And most beginners are concerned with getting an instrument that looks right. About 10 yrs ago I sold my Mid-Mo mando to buy a Kentucky 675. Little did I know that I was downgrading. All I knew was that I had an F5 mandolin and I liked it! Ten years later I have some very high quality A-styles and love every minute I get to play them!

I have no data to prove my next thought but I seriously doubt any of the Asian made instruments are keeping people from ordering quality, hand-built instruments from independent American luthiers. Just sayin'......

[Dr. Jazz]

It does amaze me these days that the quality for $1K is certainly better than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I think it's fabulous. Is it as good as a handmade instrument from North America (or even Oz)? Certainly not. The pac-rim instruments are more problem to set-up. They need more maintenance, they suffer more from humidity issues, etc etc. However, they do get folks interested in playing and that is something that can't be understated.

As to the politics, well, I'm not smart enough to have an answer, however a smart guy once told me that around the turn of the last century, Argentina and the US were at about the same point economically. Argentina shut and locked it's doors. The US opened theirs - to the world. And there hasn't been such an economic growth cycle since. Well, except for China and India. :-)

[Hans]

<inflamatory comments removed by Moderator>

[Bob Borzelleri]

More and more it appears that where someone stands on an issue depends pretty much on where he sits.

[Scott Austin]

More and more it appears that where someone stands on an issue depends pretty much on where he sits.

Always been this way.I agree with Hans.