Maple Test Kits....

[Spruce]

Hi all....

I've been asked by a few folks to put together a test kit for determining the species of maple in an instrument...
In our case, the usually hard-to-ID maple in a Loar...

This, from "Identifying Wood", by R. Bruce Hoadley:

"When a saturated water solution of ferrous sulfate is applied to red maple, a deep blue-black color develops; when the same solution is applied to sugar maple, a greenish color results".

So-ooo, what I'm offering is a little kit consisting of a small packet of ferrous sulfate, a Q-tip, and two known samples of hard and soft maple so that you can test them to see the sometimes subtle color differences that result...

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/Les%20Paul%20Forum/P1040040.jpg

Here's a pic of a test I did this morning...
Three hard maple samples (greenish) on the left, and 3 soft maple on the right (blackish)....

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/Les%20Paul%20Forum/P1040050.jpg

Yeah, I know that most folks might be hesitant to maim their Loars, but there are times when this can be done without harm...
During major repairs (wish Charlie had a kit during the #73987 repair), refins, or done with care in strap holes to determine side species, etc...

I'd like to log the results to see what we come up with...
Maybe Darryl could denote species in the Journal?
Just a thought... ;)

Interested?

Email me at:

tonewoods at rockisland dot com

....and I'll send a kit on...

Thanks to many members here at the Cafe for sending "known" samples awhile back.
Much appreciated....!

PS....
For those of you who think you might like to have a quantity of ferrous sulfate on hand to test various instruments as they come in your shop, or test the myriad of Loars in your closet, here's (http://www.hometrainingtools.com/iron-ii-ferrous-sulfate-30-g/p/CH-FESO4/) a source, and it's only 3 bucks a bottle...

Bruce

[sunburst]

$3 a bottle + $10 shipping for me!
I'd like the kit without the samples (to save shipping, I have samples). Check your email!
BTW, what happens with silver maple? Nothing? If I have eastern maple and think it's silver, can I confirm it with FeS04? I guess I can find out by experimenting!

[Spruce]

BTW, what happens with silver maple? Nothing? If I have eastern maple and think it's silver, can I confirm it with FeS04? I guess I can find out by experimenting!

Yep...

I've only milled 2-3 Silvers, and I can't seem to find a chunk to test...

So-ooo, I'd love to hear about your results with known samples...

It's my understanding that this test was done a lot by sawmills when they got stuff mixed up...
So, Black and Sugar would test greenish, and Silver and Red blackish...
Or so I assume...

I'm messing around with English Sycamore (AKA "German Maple") and Bigleaf as we speak, and will get back to you all on that one soon...

BTW, the test kits are gratis...
Just send me your address and I'll get one on it's way...

Thanks!

[sunburst]

I can come up with known silver, perhaps I'll send some along with those spruce samples I keep promising to send...:redface:

[Paul Hostetter]

Aren't you concerned that running a chemical reaction on a discreet surface of an instrument that's been exposed to the atmosphere, including being inside a closed case, for more than 80 years might have a very different result than the same test run on freshly milled maple? It seems to me that, for the results to mean anything, they'd have to be run on absolutely uncontaminated wood.

Likewise it'd be interesting to see how this test works out on the same species but from different growing locales. F'rinstance, the bigleaf growing on my road versus the bigleaf growing on yours.

In any case, I'm game for the test, send the kit!

[Spruce]

Aren't you concerned that running a chemical reaction on a discreet surface of an instrument that's been exposed to the atmosphere, including being inside a closed case, for more than 80 years might have a very different result than the same test run on freshly milled maple? It seems to me that, for the results to mean anything, they'd have to be run on absolutely uncontaminated wood.

I've sucessfully tested 110 year-old birdseye flooring, not that that answers your (and my) questions about all this...

I guess we'll just have to muck our way though this and see what happens...




In any case, I'm game for the test, send the kit!

It's in the mail...
Thanks...

[Rob Grant]

Will it work for Flindersia or the Oz "maples?"... only kidding Spruce.<G>

But seriously, is the chemical reacting with a starch or sugar of some sort???

[Spruce]

But seriously, is the chemical reacting with a starch or sugar of some sort???

Ya know, I have no idea...

Be nice to have a kit for Brazilian Rosewood, though...
Maybe just rub money on it or something... ;)

[Hans]

I've got a kit for Rio! Send 10 bucks and I'll send you a sheet of 150 grit. :grin:

[Rick Turner]

Hans, the problem is that to my nose and eyes, some Madagascar rosewood resembles Brazilian absolutely perfectly. Makes you wonder about way back when Africa and South America were one continent.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

I had a customer last year who told me that when brought his guitar with him to Japan, they had an eye dropper kit at customs that could tell if it was Brazilian rosewood- he claimed the Brazilian turned dark blue. He won't take his favorite guitar there anymore because of it. Can anyone else verify this?

j.
www.condino.com

[Mario Proulx]

I'd say it's a myth, Grandcanyon. I sent out 12 samples of various rosewoods, including 3 known BRW samples and one that was doubtful, to a forestry lab that supposedly had a rosewood expert, and they couldn't say, with 100% certainty, what -any- of them were. I doubt a drop of any chemical could tell anyone if a piece is BRW or not with 100% certainty.

[Paul Hostetter]

Other than visual, I haven't detected any "field" resemblances between Mad and D. nigra. Different fragrance, different vibe altogether.

[Rob Grant]

grandcanyonminstrel wrote:

"I had a customer last year who told me that when brought his guitar with him to Japan, they had an eye dropper kit at customs that could tell if it was Brazilian rosewood- he claimed the Brazilian turned dark blue."

Took one of my mandolins through customs at Narita in '08 and they were more concerned about the avacodo and block of cheese in my bento box then the mandolin. Fact is, they never even examined the instrument. Now the Yanks at SFO, that's whole 'nother story!<g>

[Rolfe]

I got my test "kit" from Bruce, and on the same day received a bottle of the test chemical, ferrous sulfate, from the source recommended by Bruce. The test results were quite interesting. The soft maple (red) produced a definite blackish spot, and the hard maples produced a greenish spot. Quilted maple was a bit in between---not surprising. An unidentified 100+ year old piece tested hard, as I thought. Another unidentified piece (at the top) turned out hard. A piece I thought was red (bottom center) was actually sugar maple. Not shown is a piece of English sycamore maple which tested hard but is very light and soft; a wood identification book states that sycamore maple acts like it is hard even though it is not. Hey, this was fun!

[Rolfe]

An update: after drying overnight, the two quilted specimens (a broadleaf and an unknown) definitely lean toward the soft maple color. Checking my notes on the English sycamore maple, I find that R. Bruce Hoadley says that acer pseudoplatanus "resembles hard maple." Must be the "pseudo" in the name because it works and acts like very soft maple.

[Spruce]

An update: after drying overnight, the two quilted specimens (a broadleaf and an unknown) definitely lean toward the soft maple color. Checking my notes on the English sycamore maple, I find that R. Bruce Hoadley says that acer pseudoplatanus "resembles hard maple." Must be the "pseudo" in the name because it works and acts like very soft maple.

Thanks for that Rolfe...

Spilled any through the F-holes of your Loar yet?? ;)

[Rolfe]

Bruce---and everyone---send me your Loars, and I'll do the testing.

[Kent Martin]

I decided to test some maple using ferrous sulfate tablets found at the local drug store, knowing that they also include some other "filler" and appearance ingredients. The tablets are white with a green coating. I crushed one tablet as fine as I could, and dissolved (more or less) in distilled water. The resulting solution has a pale mint green color. I tested 4 maple samples, none of them precisely identified.

48064

One of the four seemed to indicate a reaction.

[Larry Simonson]

I did a quick google search and found (in science.howstuff works the following: "Because tannic acid reacts chemically with iron salts (for example, ferrous sulfate) to form dark blue or greenish-black compounds." There may be different amounts of tannins in the various kinds of maple. ???? Any wood chemists our there?

[sebastiaan56]

That makes sense to me as ebonising solutions have been made for centuries from iron dissolved in vinegar and from experience different timbers do ebonise differently. Ive been told it is the differing tannin levels that give the differing results. see http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Ebonizing_Wood/

[sunburst]

Well, I finally got home from holiday travels and tried out my test kit. Only a couple of surprises so far, some wood I thought was sugar turned out to be red and visa versa.
Rolfe, the wood I got from you at the ASIA auction, from the church yard tree in PA, tests 'hard' as I suspected.

My mystery maple that I'm over 90% sure is silver maple tests 'hard', so that eliminates red maple as a possibility and adds to my assurance that it is silver maple, but I suppose it's still not confirmed. I've been building a new wood rack and I'm having to resist the temptation to dig through all that newly cleaned and stacked maple to confirm what all of it is!

Kent, having taken a few chemistry classes in school I can remind you that Hoadley's directions for testing say a "saturated solution" of FeSO4. To assure that that is what you have, the pure, dry chemical must be mixed with water (distilled or deionized) in proportions such that not all the chemical will dissolve. In other words, there needs to be some undissolved powder in the solution to assure that the solution is saturated. There's no way to do that with the iron pills. Who knows what all is in those things(!?) so you can't know what is in your solution and in what proportions.

[Kent Martin]

I can read the ingredients and tell what's in the pills, and in what proportion. Secondly, I can see the reaction of one of my samples as expected for hard maple. It would be hard to argue that something other than the ferrous sulfate caused that.

[Rolfe]

Hi John,
I tested a piece from same batch, and it too tested hard. The wood came out of a tree in a church parking lot in western Pennsylvania about twenty years ago.

[Philphool]

For us interested but uneducated gawkers, how about listing the various maples used for mandos (sugar, red, etc) in order of what's considered "hard" or "soft" and where the dividing line is usually set.
Thanks.
(I think I might be getting red spruce & red maple mixed up in my brain.)

[sunburst]

That's easy, Phil. Sugar maple is hard and everything else is soft (except black maple, and it's seldom used that I know of).
The maples commonly used for mandolins are;
sugar
red
silver
bigleaf
european

[Kent Martin]

I figured out what was causing some of my confusion -- going back to the Loar A5 thread, we have this photo:

48178

It appears this was mis-labeled, based on the above test results. Am I seeing this correctly?