Down Up Dilemma

[mandrian]

When reading another message yesterday I realised I still have not got down up straight in my head. I understand when you talking about straight quarter notes, eighth notes,etc but what is the proper way to pick say the following two bars of the jazz waltz The Way You Look Tonight?

Bar 3. A quarter note, two eight notes, an eight note rest and an eighth note?

Bar 7. A quarter note, an eighth note, a quarter note and eighth note.

What is the "proper" way to play this? Thanks.

[bobby bill]

I would play it as shown below for both bars. You are essentially going to play DU DU DU on the three beats but without always picking a string. The strokes in parantheses below do not sound but your wrist still moves down or up as if it was a pick stroke.

D (U) DU (D)U

[250sc]

The Way You Look Tonight by J.Kern? All the charts I've seen for the J.Kern song have it in 4/4.

There must be another jazz song with the same name.

[Dfyngravity]

Bar 3: D DU rest U
Bar 7:D D D D

[Mike Bunting]

The OP does not say the rhythm might be in his example.

[Rob Gerety]

Yea, what is the time signature?

[Mike Bunting]

My problem here is that we don't know where these quarters and eighths fall in terms of the beat.

[Rob Gerety]

Am I wrong to say that your pick goes down on the down or strong beat and up on the up or weak beat and just keeps moving like that up and down 1 and 2 and 3 and. If there is a note to hit you hit it. If not you pick at air.

[Mike Bunting]

Yes
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and etc.
D U D U D U D U

I can't line it up. Down on the numbers and up on the "ands"



Whether or not the note is actually picked. Get the rhythm in the hand.

[mandrian]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies so far. In terms of the timing I'm using the sheet music as published in the Hal Leonard Playalong series. This says it is a jazz waltz with three beats to the bar.

[250sc]

Hal Leonard products seem to be well done but I would look at some other charts. If you call The Way You Look Tonight at a jam you'll be the only person playing a waltz.

[Ravenwood]

What is the "proper" way to play this? Thanks.

I think you are getting a lot of really good advice from some really good musicians, but I wouldn't get too hung up on the idea of "proper".

Often the conversation about picking patterns runs as a debate between DUD DUD and DUDU DUDU and their variations. There are other patterns though that can be used effectively in many situations. Dan Beimborn for example uses DDU a lot. There's a guy I know here in Flint who trained as a classical guitarist who uses finger picks on mandolin and never uses a downstroke. There are also many ways to vary each pattern according to the mix of note lengths and time signatures. Others have already given you some good ideas about how that can be done.

My point here is that ultimately you have to decide what works best for you. Once you find it, that will become your "proper" way to play it. Certainly, listen to what others have to say about how they play a particular tune, but don't feel like you have to conform to some "right" way of doing things.

[Dfyngravity]

Bar 3. A quarter note, two eight notes, an eight note rest and an eighth note?

Bar 7. A quarter note, an eighth note, a quarter note and eighth note.

What is the "proper" way to play this? Thanks.

Just by reading what he wrote I assumed it was 3/4

Quarter + two eighths + an eighth rest and another eighth = 3 quarters...or course I guess it could be 6/8 but the pick strokes wouldn't be any different. Plus he said it was a waltz.

[mandrian]

Thanks for all the help. I'm always a bit reluctant to go with just what feels right as after playing for 15 years and practicing at least an hour every day, I still feel like I'm a person that has a mandolin rather than is a mandolin player! Given that I'm trying with books like Getting into Jazz Mandolin and Mandolin Finger Busters to make sure that my practice is at least along the right lines. Who knows perhaps some quantam leap is just round the corner!

[lenf12]

Do like the Big Mon and play 'em all down strokes :))

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[250sc]

"Who knows perhaps some quantam leap is just round the corner! "

I've always thought of becoming a better player as an act of faith. I have faith that if I keep working at it I'll become a better (at least more mature) player. So far I've found that concerted effort pays off.

[Rob Gerety]

Get the rhythm in the hand.

This is my feeling. When I'm playing well my right hand is just pumping along in good rhythm up and down with no change and I hardly think about the sting hits.

[Rob Gerety]

My point here is that ultimately you have to decide what works best for you. Once you find it, that will become your "proper" way to play it. Certainly, listen to what others have to say about how they play a particular tune, but don't feel like you have to conform to some "right" way of doing things.

You know, with all due respect of course, I see it differently. My feeling is that players who are learning should strive to stick to conventional wisdom and leave the variations to a later day when they have the fundamentals down cold. This alternate picking discipline is important in my judgment and I think careful practice using strict alternate picking will pay big dividends as speed increases later in the learning curve. I'm no teacher - I'm just a hacker myself for sure. But this is the conclusion I have come to for myself after a lot of years of slow progress that I attribute largely to my failure to learn good solid fundamental techniques.

[Mike Bunting]

I totally agree with Rob G. on this. In fact, I just had dinner with a friend who teaches jazz guitar at the college in town and he reinforces this idea. Pick direction in important to the internal rhythm of a tune, might as well let gravity work for you and emphasize the down beats.

[mandrian]

Another thing that confuses me is that Mike Marshall in his DVD will talk about the importance of making sure that the upstroke sounds as clearly and loudly as the downstroke, even going as far as giving you exercises to achieve this. But then in my replies folks quite often talk about the downstroke emphasisng the beat. Are these latter references talking only about in the case of playing music like fiddle tunes or waltzes where perhaps emphasising the beat is important from a dance perspective?

[Dfyngravity]

Chris Thile has also talked about working on that too. You really want to achieve a nice lilt (http://www.yourdictionary.com/lilt) to your playing. If your downstroke is much stronger than your upstroke all of the time then your playing will seem a bit forced and won't have much flow to it. That being said, I am not saying do not emphasize the downstroke, I am saying that you want to develope your pickstroke so you can emphasize certain pick strokes when you want to and not simply have every downstroke emphasized because you have a weak upstroke. Does that make any sense?

Also remember that Thile and Marshall do play a lot of classical music, particularly Bach. Bach wasn't really written for mandolin so having an even down and up stroke is needed to be able to give the piece the feeling and flow intended.