Contracting a mandolin build

[Dfyngravity]

There has been some recent talk about builders and getting on their waiting list, deposits, and things of that sort. There has also be cases in the past of builders not delivering on their promises. It really got me thinking because I own a landscape design and installation company and run my dad's construction company and when we are hired to do work there is always contracts.

With todays technology, many builders are building for individuals outside of their community and even out of their own country. Also many of the buyers are having mandolins built purely out of faith that the instrument is going to be what they pay for. So that being said, how many builders out there or buyers out there are using a written contract? Being that were now have fax, e-mail, internet it seems that having a formal contract is fairly easy now. I think it is king of a good practice to have a formal contract. I know I would never do any work for anyone without having a contract. However, I have had several mandolins built purely based on faith. You send the deposit and that gets your instrument underway. When it's done you send the remainder and wait for the instrument to arrive.

I think this site does a great job of monitoring poor business practice as the word gets around on the cafe rather quick like. Though I still think contracts would be nice for both parties.


Any thoughts? Builders? Buyers?

[sunburst]

I've never had a written contract with a customer, other than perhaps my scrawled notes taken during conversation. (They are on legal paper sometimes, at least <g>.)
What I do have is a verbal contract with each customer and that is legally binding, though admittedly not so easy to recheck the details in the event of a problem. If a customer requested a written contract I would not be opposed to it, but any legal expenses involved would have to end up being payed by the customer.
I do not start work until I have a deposit from the customer. That assures me that the customer is serious about the order and will probably not say "wow, I really like this instrument but I've decided I don't really want to pay for it after all" when the work is done. So far, working mostly on trust, I've not had any problems with delivering a satisfactory product of being payed for my work. I am owed some money by a few people, but I know I'll get it when they are able to pay, times are tough for some these days.

[Dfyngravity]

I would like to edit one of my statements after reading John's post:

**The cafe does a great job of monitoring and reporting on great and some not so great business practices as the word get around the cafe rather quick like.**

John, you have definitely developed a great name for yourself here on the cafe. I actually had the pleasure of playing one of your mandolins after a jam at Tim Timberlakes cabin up at Graves Mountain Bluegrass Festival a few years back......or should I say when everyone took a quick breather after playing for about and hour or so straight. From what I remember it was a very nice mandolin from sound to fit and finish. I know as many others know here that you are good on your word and also built top notch instruments.

[JEStanek]

I've only had two instruments built for me and in neither case did we use a written contract. I sent one builder deposit money. The other builder and I just communicated alot (this was a tighter time frame for the build 3 months vs over a year (wait and build)). I don't think I got lucky, I think my good experiences are more the norm than an exception.

I wouldn't discourage anyone who wanted to use a contract from using one if it made them feel more comfortable with the process.

Jamie

[Denny Gies]

I had Randy Wood build an F-5 for me and there was no written contract. The relationship was excellent and I got more than I ever expected.

[allenhopkins]

Well, a written contract is certainly not necessary until there's a dispute or disagreement. I don't have people build instruments for me, so I can't speak to that, but whenever I take an instrument in for repairs, I fill out a form that stipulates the conditions under which the shop's accepting the instrument: identification of the instrument by make, model, serial number; my name and address; my description of the problem requiring repair; a repair estimate, and an agreement to notify me if repairs exceed the estimate; my agreement to pick up the instrument within so many days of being notified repairs are complete; an estimated date for repair completion; plus other particulars. I get a little tear-off with the repair ID number and the estimated date of completion on it. I sign off on the form, indicating that I agree with the "terms and conditions."

I see no problem going through this for a $50 set-up, and surely would have no problem signing something similar for a $7.5K mandolin build, especially if I were putting down a hefty deposit on it. There have been a few horror stories on the Cafe about builders taking deposits and not delivering at all, and quite a few more about builders going way past their estimated delivery dates, being hard to communicate with, etc. Not saying that having a written agreement is a panacea against such problems, but I also see no reason not to explicitly agree on the terms under which the money is paid and the work performed.

[Woody Turner]

Although it was perhaps not legally binding, I sent my luthier a letter itemizing all the details that we had discussed by phone and e-mail during the planning stages. It covered everything from materials, scale length, and finish to case, shipping, and approximate delivery date. If you feel awkward asking a builder to enter into a formal contract, you can at least write such a letter of understanding confirming your expectations and his/hers.

[Jim Kirkland]

I am having a mando built now. When I visited the builder this past Jul, in Indiana, he took very good notes on my desires. We looked at all the hardware and wood that would be used and I provided a picture for color. The builder emailed pics as the mando was being built. When it was complete and in the white, he shipped it to me for a try. I kept it 2 weeks, played it a lot, noted what needed to be adjusted, and sent it back for adjustments and finish. This builder didn't know me, but when I visited him in his shop he checked me out very well. I only knew him from the mandos that he had built and I had the opportunity to play. I can tell you the only contract we had were the notes we both provided and the handshake that was involved.

[Kevin Briggs]

I have had three mandolins built specifically for me, and each time I used emails as the contract. None of the builders thought it was a nuisance, and I was happy having email exchanges as evidence of money changing hands, completions dates, etc.

[cedarhog]

I did my homework on the builder I chose. I completely trusted him to deliver what he promised and he trusted me to pay when it was ready.....all on a handshake (and deposit ;)).

[Hans]

I always use a written contract. It details all the particulars of the instrument and price. Two copies are made and the customer and I sign one each so that we have a written agreement. Any changes can be made until I cut wood.

[AlanN]

Purely a subjective matter, between builder and buyer. When I ordered my Gilchrists, the agent at the time jotted down what I wanted. What I got was what I wanted.

[Dusty]

As a practicing Dentist. I do not feel threatened when someone asks me what a procedure will cost. They, in turn, are often asked to make a down payment for services that require cash out on my part for lab fees and materials, with the balance due on completion. It is just business. I know the patient trusts me or they wouldn't be there in the first place. But, they have an expectation of what and when the services will be rendered. I really see no difference in some sort of written contract between a builder and buyer. It is just business, and just defines the business relationship that can give both parties peace of mind. I would be hesitant to deal with someone I only knew by reputation that involved a large cash deposit with no security. It is often interesting that the builder will not mail out the instrument until the final payment check clears whereas they have had a deposit in hand for several months. It's just business.

[Eric Hanson]

I am having a mando built now. When I visited the builder this past Jul, in Indiana, he took very good notes on my desires. We looked at all the hardware and wood that would be used and I provided a picture for color. The builder emailed pics as the mando was being built. When it was complete and in the white, he shipped it to me for a try. I kept it 2 weeks, played it a lot, noted what needed to be adjusted, and sent it back for adjustments and finish. This builder didn't know me, but when I visited him in his shop he checked me out very well. I only knew him from the mandos that he had built and I had the opportunity to play. I can tell you the only contract we had were the notes we both provided and the handshake that was involved.

Butch Click is good people. I too worked one out this way with him. Very good to work with this man. Nice Mando too!

All this being said. As a business man I see the wisdom in having things in writing. Just makes for a cleaner task if there is any problem in the process.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Well, lawyers would not be in business if a handshake would do it all.

There´s a lot of trust (and advance payment) involved.

Of course the way Hans Brentrup works out his contracts is the safe way. Nobody´s unhappy when they have it all written out. On the other hand, nobody guarantees that the buyer will come up with the money. Hans had a mandolin on the classifieds some time back when this happened. The buyer didn´t come up with the money so Hans didn´t deliver. While he didn´t need to deliver, there was still the instrument completed. Now what do you do, will you sue the person to pay and then deliver the instrument, or will you just sell the instrument? This could be a catch 22...

AlanN ordered without any "real" contract and got what he expected. With Steve Gilchrist this is surely not exeptional.

Think about overseas transactions. There´s also a lot of faith involved on the builder´s side. Even though they recieve a downpayment, they advance the work, the material, the time etc.

When I ordered my Duff, Paul Duff and I had a little bit of email conversation, I transferred him my downpayment, I waited 3 years and then I received the email that my mandolin was ready. Paul Duff received the payment and I the mandolin. Faith was on both sides. Paul surely had to have more faith in me than I had to have in him, since he has a wellknown reputation, and I didn´t. He made me happy with the mando and I guess his labor was well compensated with my payment.

I do not think that it is necessary to go in depth of how business is conducted in a niche market like the mandolin world (or the guitar world etc.). The word gets around how luthier´s work. Nobody would really go and claim that luthiers like Michael Lewis, Don McRostie, Gail Hester and Paul Hostetter etc. have flawed business ethics or deliver flawed work.

Mostly a good business deal is a matter of doing your homework concerning the luthier, of communication among the involved parties and give and take.

I think life is easier in this here niche world than out there where you are loaning out video walls or where you are doing wholesale business.

[Dfyngravity]

Hans, I think that is great.

There are so many things that go in to a build, that is kind of why I was thinking about it, beyond the money issue. For instance, types of wood, radius fingerboard, type of tuners, color scheme, ect........the list just goes on. With a written contract I would think two things: 1. the builder has a written document with specs to follow and deliver 2. the customer gets what the contract says. I can see how without a contract the the builder might not do something and claim not to have had that spec or the customer claim to have requested something to be on the mandolin when they really didn't.

[Jim Hilburn]

I made it my policy early on to run a list, but only take a deposit when I was ready to start that instrument and to offer full refund for pretty much any reason if something wasn't satisfactory (which has only happened once). My reasoning was partially based on the experience of several top builders who had taken deposits for years in advance and were burned when their work became very valuable but they were locked into prices much lower than the market was dictating.
Now that never became an issue for me anyway, but still in the end you will only recieve what money your instruments will bring and living on deposits didn't seem like a good plan.
But one downside was that I've had a lot of people get on the list and when their time came they didn't commit. Now everyone who has delt with me know I'm pretty slow at this and the wait time was pretty long sometimes. But the point is if someone doesn't have some skin in the game by the time you write them they may not even remember who you are.
I'm not complaining though. When I first thought about trying to build I was wondering where I'd be able to sell a mandolin around town. Now seven years later there's never been a time when I didn't have someone waiting for me to build them a mandolin. It certainly has exceeded my expectations.

[sunburst]

Yeah, I envisioned dozens of mandolins sitting around with me trying to sell them, and never expected a "waiting list" stretching beyond a year and hardly ever a mandolin of my own. Ya never know...

As for the statement: "Well, lawyers would not be in business if a handshake would do it all.", let's not get too confident in written contracts. If all written contracts "would do it all" lawyers would be falling by the curb too.

[Links]

We have seen here many anecdotal experiences of having a mandolin made with and without contracts and most came out exactly as the customer wished. However, contracts are not written for the cases that go "well" - they are written for the ones that do not go well - and how do you know which they are until the transaction is finished? You don't.

Contracts are to protect the builder and the buyer and should include: name of buyer and luthier, date of contract, proposed date of completion (or wording as to make it clear there is no promise here), specifications of the instrument to be built, price (and payment schedule), and any other information deemed pertinent. It should be signed and dated by both parties. It can be simple and does not need to be seen by a lawyer. No legal fees should be necessary. If a builder wanted to draw up a "standard contract" (for all his jobs) and have a lawyer friend look at it, that would be fine.

As an architect, I have done "handshake" agreements for fees that would have bought ten Gilchrists, but I was only doing the design work and not actual construction. I would never suggest to my clients that they should have a contractor do the work without a contract.

There is absolutely no downside to having a simple contract. That being said, I had a written contract with a builder a couple of years ago and he did not deliver, as promised. After a year of trying to get in touch with him, I finally got a refund ($1500) of my deposit. Although I had a written contract and would have won in court, if his financial condition had been such that he did not have my deposit, I doubt if I would have ever gotten it.

[JeffD]

A contract with the builder sounds like a good idea, but if you get a vibe with a particular builder that you may need the protection of a contract, you probably should go elsewhere, I would think.

[bobby bill]

A contract with the builder sounds like a good idea, but if you get a vibe with a particular builder that you may need the protection of a contract, you probably should go elsewhere, I would think.


Requesting a written contract does not mean you distrust the other party any more than building a fence means you hate your neighbor. A simple contract can memorialize both parties' expectations, assist sketchy memories of prior communications and help avoid misunderstandings down the road.

[JeffD]

Requesting a written contract does not mean you distrust the other party any more than building a fence means you hate your neighbor. A simple contract can memorialize both parties' expectations, assist sketchy memories of prior communications and help avoid misunderstandings down the road.

Absolutely. My point being that if you distrust the other party the contract is not the way to go - better to go to another builder.

[Links]

JeffD - If you get a vibe that causes you to distrust the builder, you are correct that you should seek another builder. But that has nothing to do with a contract. If the builder were my best friend, we would still have a contract, so that when he/she was finished we would still be best friends.

[JeffD]

JeffD - If you get a vibe that causes you to distrust the builder, you are correct that you should seek another builder. But that has nothing to do with a contract. If the builder were my best friend, we would still have a contract, so that when he/she was finished we would still be best friends.


I think we are all in violent agreement here.

A contract is like a fire extinguisher in your car: Having a fire extinguisher in your car is a good idea, having a car that needs a fire extinguisher - not so good.

[grassrootphilosopher]

As for the statement: "Well, lawyers would not be in business if a handshake would do it all.", let's not get too confident in written contracts. If all written contracts "would do it all" lawyers would be falling by the curb too.

True and like I said it takes faith on both sides. In addition nothing can mess up things like a written legal document. And lawyers have a way of messing things up too. I know a little about it and I like the way the mando community generally works. It´s like the proverb: Bad people don´t play music. But like in life this is a generalisation.

[James P]

I think we are all in violent agreement here.

A contract is like a fire extinguisher in your car: Having a fire extinguisher in your car is a good idea, having a car that needs a fire extinguisher - not so good.


Oh, that's good!

[allenhopkins]

I remember a performer on the concertina -- might have been Michael Cooney -- telling of having an instrument hand-built by a shop in England. He was informed that there was a protracted waiting period. Six or seven years later, he was informed his concertina was ready. He said he'd actually forgotten that he'd ordered it, over the intervening time.

I see nothing to fear in having a written agreement, which may be only an e-mail setting forth terms and conditions. We're not talking Donald Trump's pre-nup here. One of the posts that gave me pause, was the builder who cautioned about entering into a firm agreement, because in the period between when the contract was signed and the mandolin was built, the builder might get a great "rep" and the prices of his instruments might be going up! Were I a builder, which thankfully I'm not, I'd quote a price that would give me a decent profit on my time and materials. If I became a recognized genius in the meantime, I could start charging more to the thousands of eager mandolinists who besieged my wait list, but that shouldn't obviate the agreement I made awhile a go to deliver at the fair price negotiated then.

[Dfyngravity]

My reasoning was partially based on the experience of several top builders who had taken deposits for years in advance and were burned when their work became very valuable but they were locked into prices much lower than the market was dictating.

I completely agree Allen. But I don't see how the builder would get burned. You wouldn't set up the written contract years in advanced. Every contract would be different for every person and wouldn't be written and signed until it was time to build the instrument for that person. This goes back to the waiting list thing and it seems kind of silly to charge people to get on a waiting list. I think the deposit should come once it's time to build the mandolin. And it should be made clear to anyone who is on the waiting list that the price for an instrument is subject to change and a final price will be set once all details have been discussed and it's time to start the build.