11 string mandolins ....is it worth the cost

[tino7770]

Bought this old girl off e-bay......not in the best of health.
The back does not look right at all but the rest seems original lovely neck just needs a fret replaced and a new nutt.But the body does need love care & scaffolding:)):))
I think it may be made by Reliance,Anyone any ideas on it????,,the case is a Reliance case and appears to be made to fit...I would love to see her up and playing but possibly do not have the skill or patience...
Anyone know of anyone in the London.Essex area that could undertake this work
Im hoping the pics have attached
I can send better hi-res to emails
Thanks

T

[Rob Grant]

I once restored a British made 10 string mandolin that was owned and played by the late father of a friend. The excess stress and years of use expressed themselves with a bowed neck, separation at the neck joint and some top damage.

I did the necessary repairs and brought the little beauty back to a playable condition. Due to the lack of a trussrod or any type of proper neck support, I convinced her that she would be better off stringing it up with a set of light guage strings and playing it as an standard eight string mandolin. I left the two extra tuners in place and re-spaced the string slots at the nut and saddle. Basically any modifications I made to the string setup can be reversed if someone in the future wants to try the original ten string arrangement.

[tino7770]

Thanks Rob

I was thinking of making it an 8 string also,Last night I removed the back and behold its made from a Tate & lyles shipping container dated Dec 1961:))
Still thats the least of its problems,the sides are pretty good and came away from the supporting strucure easily,the top is fair with only separation along its original join,all top bracing is intact and I can reset this to suit.
I'm not certain as to my abilities to form the back but I intend to give it a try anyhow,I have an old 50,s guitar body that will be donating itself for this.Most of the original glues come away very easily but at some point someone has given it a going over with what looks like epoxy resin and this is proving to be a problem to remove.
Q.....Does anyone know who I could approach to have an 11 string tailpeice made in case I can effect a decent repair:mandosmiley:??

[Rob Grant]

T,

If you can accomplish a successful restoration on this mandolin, I have no doubt you can probably fabricate your own tailpiece. A bit of sheet brass and silver brazing rod will get you started.

[jim simpson]

As you have described this instrument and assuming you haven't paid too much for it, I would say it's a wonderful opportunity to experiment with it. It looks like the inlay under the sound-hole has already been replaced with some material. Normally this would be a thin tortoise-shell looking material. I think aesthetically, I would try to change that. The maker of tor-toise (sp?) here in the states will make a pick-guard custom per supplied template.

Good luck with this one.

[Tavy]

That's a crazy looking instrument for sure, I assume with 11 strings they were in a 2+3+3+3 arrangement? Seems a shame not to string up all 11, although I agree that the tension may shorten it's lifespan: and I've no idea how playable those triple course instruments are either!

Jim is almost certainly correct that the pick guard inlay has been replaced - and maybe not too well? - at some point. In the UK the only source of faux tortoise shell I've found so far is Anita Marquetry (http://www.anitamarquetry.co.uk/acatalog/Acrylic_Shells.html): this seems to be a plastic (acrylic?) simulation rather than "real" artificial tortoise, but is not too expensive - in fact I have some going spare if you don't want to meet Anita'a minimum order requirements. You can sort of see the effect it gives in the sleave guard in these images (http://cittern.ning.com/photo/albums/silvestri-bowlback), or in the photo below. Come to that a nice bit of figured rosewood inlay would look nice there too - and not be too out of keeping with historical accuracy.

It's actually the sort of project that I would relish... but I'm very much a hobbiest restorer, and not in Essex. If you don't mind posting to France then David Hynds (http://www.mandolinluthier.com/index.htm) would probably take this one on as well.

HTH, John.

[Martin Jonas]

It's a curious instrument for sure, but the main impression I get is that it has been interfered with rather badly. The photos give the impression that there is some glossy finish over everything, is that right? I wouldn't think that's original. As the the quality of the underlying instrument, that's difficult to assess without knowing which bits are original. I just have an inkling that this may have been an amateur-built project to start with: the workmanship around the soundhole and at the end go the fingerboard looks fairly coarse.

Martin

[EdHanrahan]

Q.....Does anyone know who I could approach to have an 11 string tailpeice made in case I can effect a decent repair??

I've looked at several 12-strings lately (mandriolas!), both pictures and in person. Pretty sure they all use a fairly standard 8-string tailpiece and just double up some of the string loops on the hooks.

Regardless, it looks like a fun project. Good luck!

[fishtownmike]

I've looked at several 12-strings lately (mandriolas!), both pictures and in person. Pretty sure they all use a fairly standard 8-string tailpiece and just double up some of the string loops on the hooks.

Regardless, it looks like a fun project. Good luck!
I have one and thats all they did. Thats doubled up some of the strings.

[tino7770]

It's a curious instrument for sure, but the main impression I get is that it has been interfered with rather badly. The photos give the impression that there is some glossy finish over everything, is that right? I wouldn't think that's original. As the the quality of the underlying instrument, that's difficult to assess without knowing which bits are original. I just have an inkling that this may have been an amateur-built project to start with: the workmanship around the soundhole and at the end go the fingerboard looks fairly coarse.

Martin

Hi Martin,
This is definety an original craftsman built mandolin,the neck is fabulous,The soundboard looks to be spruce & bracing looks to be red cedar is well made and finished and are OK but the soundhole looks messy as the hole was finished with a raised circle of what looks like spruce,It had fallen away but is in the case.Unfortunately when the back was replaced a right old bodge was made and any bracing that had existed as there are cut outs at the sides for these has been lost....At some point the body and neck were seperated and it looks likeplastic filler has been used to fill the gaps hence the tacky looking end to board.as body is out of line with neck
On to the gloss....I covered the body in a wood feed as it needed in my opinion some moisture put back in as coming in to a centrally heated environment could / would lead to further shrinkage & cracking,especially as I try to seperate the wood from filler & glues.
The pictures are quite deceptive.
Tuners have DRGM 63957 on them anyone know the dates of these?
Still trying to get the total seperation of the body from the neck and saving the original timbers is proving to be a slow,slow,slow process.
It is or was strung 3 3 2 2 1 and the strings were held by means of 11 steel tacks,all of which I have saved,I may well reuse this original fixing system.
On the other hand firework night is looming and my patience is being tested it may well be going on the fire

[Martin Jonas]

DRGM is short for "Deutsches Reich Geschuetztes Muster" and is a pre-war German patent number. The fact that the hardware is German doesn't mean the instrument itself is, but it may well be. If so, I would think this is the missing clue as to what it actually is: I think it's most likely a variant of a Bergmanszither, or Diskant-Waldzither. That's the shorter-scale and smaller-bodied variant of the waldzither. Waldzithers can come in many different string configurations but are usually strung in five courses, of which the lowest one is a single-string bass. That matches your configuration, although I haven't seen one with triple courses before.

Original tuning would have been g d' g' b' d'', most likely, i.e. an open G chord with the lowest string tuned the same as the lowest string on the mandolin and the highest string two semitones below the highest string of the mandolin.

I've only found one photo of a Diskant-Waldzither on the web (they are much rarer than longer-scaled waldzithers), which is the one below. Doesn't look very much like yours, but then "normal" waldzithers have a wide range of designs too.

What's the scale length on yours? I believe Diskant-Waldzithers were usually a bit longer than the mandolin, around 360mm or so. If yours is the same, it might make a good five-course mandola/mandolin hybrid tuned CGDAE.

Glad to hear my impression of the workmanship is wrong: if the rosette dropped off that explains why the soundhole looks a bit rough.

Good luck with it!

Martin