Webber Mandolin.....Playability?

[Steven]

Hi all!I've been reading and really enjoying this message board for 10 months now and this is my first post.I played classical violin for many years as a young man and allways wanted to play Bluegrass and old time fiddle but could never seem to make the switch from the classical groove I was in.For years I said I would get a Mandolin because I love the sound so much.Eleven monthes ago I purchased a Morgan Monroe as a starter and dug in.So great,I love to play.About two months ago I upgraded to a Webber Gallatin in Maple with matt finish.It is a wonderful instument,beautiful bell like, crisp notes with lots of sustain....just what I wanted,and extreamly well crafted.BUT.....What in Gods name is with the frets?Why are they so tall?I have been playing it hard (2-4hrs a day) for 6 weeks now and still cant play it as well as the Morgan Monroe,even though it sounds so much better and is better made.I have read here that we should work on not putting so much pressure on our fingers when fretting,but I can not get a clean note without a lobster claw death grip even with the bridge down as far as it will go and this with med light strings,and it really hurts.Have any of you folks with these beautiful mandos had the same problem?,and how have you overcome it?Can these frets be taken down to normal hieght?Will it really change the tone and sustain?Sorry to be so long winded...any help would be greatly appreciated!

[ShaneJ]

I guess after playing the violin, any frets would seem huge. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I played guitar all my life before picking up the mando. #I hated the tiny frets on my first one and loved the larger frets on a Weber and an MK that I had after that. #I guess it's all just personal preference. #For me, the larger frets make it easier to get a clean note because I don't have to press so hard to get the string to meet the fret. #Of course, with a fiddle the string needs to meet the fingerboard. #You may be carrying over the "I've gotta mash the string firmly down to the ebony" thing. #This would be harder with larger frets than with tiny ones since the tensioned string pair would have to be bent between two frets all the way down. #Another thing is that with the fiddle, you have to press "where the fret goes" to get proper intonation of the note. #With a fretted instrument, you'll get a better sound if your finger falls evenly between the frets rather than really close to the intended note's fret. #If your fiddle-playing brain knows where the finger needs to press, that might be hard to relearn to. #

It's not impossible though, cause there's a lot of good violinists/fiddle players that are way better than me on mandolin. #Except for the tuning, they really are two different instruments -- probably more different than guitar and mando, in my opinion.

Good luck, and keep picking!

[peterbc]

It sounds to me like the action is still high, since you'd played mando before (and sounds like there wasn't much trouble there?) I'd doubt that it's strictly fiddle crossover trouble. Maybe the nut is too high? Tall frets shouldn't matter too mcuh since you don't need to push the string to the fingerboard (hell, I'm not even sure you can...) You might want to take it to someone for a setup? It could also be that your first mandolin had a really low action and you're still getting used to it. If there are other mandolin players in the area I'd ask them on their thoughts, and maybe try their instruments.

(note: take this all with a grain of salt, I'm no expert and havn't seen your axe http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

[LilCreekster]

I've now met 3 different people with Webers, who's action, even at the lowest point was WAY too high. I mean painfully high. I had got the lower insert in mine, and even with that it was still too high for me. I took out the "wedges" and filed them down. That did the trick.

It would be worth having someone look at it... I've played big and small frets and all things being equal otherwise one did not seem harder to play than the other. But, I claim no sort of expertise here LOL.

[Doug Edwards]

I experienced the same thing trying out a Weber Bitteroot. The frets seemed tall and the action was set way high. It was almost unplayable to me. I was quite dissapointed it was not set up from the factory any better than it was. I played a Yellowstone at another shop and did not have the same experience. A good set up can only help the playabillity of any instrument.

[doc holiday]

Steven: I've owned 2 Weber mandolins and the set-up and playabity was great. If you're having that much trouble, i'd call Paula at Sound to Earth. In my experience they have been great people to work with. If there is a set-up problem they'll fix it. In my experience their factory set-up height is right on. I changed bridges on my custom Yellowstone and had them re-set the set-up to normal specs. Besides the 2 I owned I've played quite a few others and the problem you describe seems unusual.
Regards Doc

[jmkatcher]

The action on my Gallatin was a bit high when I bought it, but it was trivial to dial it down (under full tension). Sound To Earth even promptly confirmed the rightness of my adjustment strategy.

As another data point, I just acquired a '54 Gibson and I don't at all notice a difference in fret sizes when playing. Actually, I don't even notice the lack of radius either.

[jim_n_virginia]

Call Paula she will help you out. Weber customer contact is great! Sounds like you have a set up problem, tall frets should make it easier to fret. IMHO a MM can't even compare to a Weber. good luck!

[Steven]

Thanks to you all for your insight,I think Lilcreekster and the rest who say the action is too high are right on.I was just curious if other people had this experiance.When I first got the mando the action was extremly high,based on the reputation that Sound to Earth has for quality and customer service (quite deserved) I decided to leave it alone and actually played it that way four weeks!Finally I just had to do somthing!Afterall...playing is suppose to be just that..play,fun,enjoyment!,having to work at trying to play doesnt seem right to me.That being said I guess the action will never be able to be as low as the MM,I understand the string only has to touch the fret when you put your finger down,but the distance from the back of the neck to the top of the string is what matters to me,that is were the reach is and I have short fingers so the closer to the fretboard the better!

[c3hammer]

I have an Absoroka and it also had a very high action at the nut. Fist thing I did was to make a new nut, bridge and true the fret heights. I've since added a solid maple bridge and lowered the action on it twice again.

I'm not sure you can ever be too low http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As low as you can go, yet keep it from buzzing. This forces me to play with a more consistant pick attack. A good thing I believe.

I found that larger frets were much easier to play on an old Kentucky I refretted. More importantly, the setup and fingerboard were trued up such that it was imeasurably easier to play.

If you want to mess around with it yourself you can go to http://www.frets.com and then the Mandolin Manual. There are many pages on things you can do yourself to adjust your mandolin to your liking. The worst case scenario is you'll blow it and need a new nut and or bridge top made which is really no big deal.

Cheers,
Pete

[Rob Powell]

I'll chime in the action being too high. Compared some Weber's against Breedloves and the action was killer high in comparison to the Breedloves (which played like butta in my big ole hands). Everything else was even except that I was able to get a clearer tone on the Breedloves because of the high action. I actually liked the cosmetics on the Weber a little better but they are both outstanding construction.

Since this seems to be generally the case, anyone have a guess as to why Weber's come set-up that way?

[LilCreekster]

Oh almost forgot... on the nut issue... a friend of mine who has a Weber Yellowstone had Chris Thile look at it during the symposium, and he said he thought the nut was too high. I showed him mine (since I was curious & also have a Yellowstone) and he said that they were the same (which would make sense haha) and that even though I've got the bridge down, the nut could come down as well. I'm debating sending it to Weber to have them set it up (I'll echo the comments reagarding how GREAT their customer service is) just having a hard time with the idea of being mando-less until it returns home to me.

I'd also be willing to send it off to someone who is known for doing low setups. One does get tired of being told that it's "low enough" by the local music shops http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif I ended up modifying it myself after it came back to me still too high (good thing I paid for a setup, huh? LOL) I know I have a few high fret spots that need work too... so hahah, anyone who has a reccomendation, hollar! LOL

[c3hammer]

Here's the link to checking the actioin at the nut.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPa....on.html (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html)

I believe that getting this right is more important than just about anything in the set up, but that's JMHO! I think Weber and many other builders leave the action a bit high to start with so that when things settle over the first year or so it doesn't become too low. Plus instrument set up is a very personal thing. Some folks like a very high action so they can pound away with out it buzzing. Too high is material safe and can be lowered to preference. Too low requires new components and is not a possition the builders probably want to be in.

If when working on your own nut with a set of needle files, you go too low you can add shims of paper under the nut to bring it back up. Regular printer paper is 0.003" thick and works perfectly for raising the action ever so slightly. Four sheets of paper is about the thickness of the E strings and that is a huge difference in playability.

Cheers,
Pete

Cheers,

[ngzcaz]

Well, I gotta admit, I never thought of
printer paper for shimming a nut. Ground bone
with glue, epoxy, ect but not paper.
An obvious question comes to mind, since many
people change nuts to bone, tusq ect for tonal
qualities, doesnt paper vastly diminish the tone
on that particular string(s) ? Dont you realize
you could be putting hundreds if not thousands
of people out of work making these expensive nuts ?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[c3hammer]

LOL ngzcaz!

The paper is very similar to the maple that the nut would normally sit on. You're not putting the paper between the string and the nut, but under the nut its self.

You don't need to glue the nut in place while you are experimenting. Simply put it in place and snug up one G and one E string to keep it there. I've been playing for 2 1/2 years with out having glued my nut in place.

Cheers,
Pete

[ngzcaz]

Gotcha....... Makes a lot more sense under the
nut. Guess I was thinking of the "easy" & time
saving way to do it.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Wando]

I have a Weber Yellowstone, which I love. The action is high, and I've done a lot of sanding on the feet of the bridge, which is at its lowest adjustment. No problem. The funny thing is that at some point, I will put bigger frets on it because it's harder to do clean pulloffs on this mando than on many others. I've been spoiled by a Rigel. Hey, different strokes!