That Old-Timey Sound?

[RobP]

Hey Gang,

I have a Rigel A+ deluxe that I have been playing for about a year and a half that I just love -- it is perfect for plugging in when my band performs and it generally works well for everything.

That said, however, when I listen to the old-time tunes played by Norman Blake, for example, I hear a dry and woody tone with very little sustain. #I played a friends oval-hole flattop recently that had that very sound, and made me think maybe I could find it somewhere without spending a fortune.

I have played one of the walnut mid-mo's at the music store, but not quite what I was looking for.

Any ideas? #As this would be a second mandolin, I can't really dump a whole bunch of cash on it right now. #But if I got an idea of what to look for I could lay a little money away now and then to be ready when and if I found it.


Thanks a lot!

Rob

[Darryl Wolfe]

Norman is partial to oval hole a-model Gibsons. You should being to get something decent for just under a grand..and on up from there depending on the year and condition

[mmukav]

The Gibson A9 has a dry, very woody sound. I can't compare it to what Norman was playing 'cause I haven't heard that recording, but I do have that woody sound with the A9, and not a lot of sustain.

[Mace]

I believe Norman uses many different mandolins including a Lyon & Healy B two point (symetrical)and a teens Martin A in addition to the Gibson A models mentioned earlier.

[Martin Jonas]

You may be able to get that sound fairly cheap by going with a Portuguese-style mando made in Eastern Europe (mostly Romania, but I think there are a few Bulgarian ones as well). #These are flattop mandolins with semi-flat (or bulgeback) maple backs made out of seven or so individual staves. #I have an 80-year old German-made example of the type, which I think has the sound you're looking for, but they're still being made new in much the same way. #See the discussion here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=14569;hl=portuguese) and here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=14356;hl=portuguese). You may be able to get one of those new for around $200 to $250.

Martin

[Joe Mendel]

Check this link to Mass. Street Music & scroll down to the Kalmazoo Mandolin. I sold one of these to a freind, & still hate myself for it. It has a great old-time sound, not much good on the bluegrass chop, but great for open chords.
http://www.massstreetmusic.com/mandos.php

[August Watters]

Portuguese-style mando made in Eastern Europe (mostly Romania, but I think there are a few Bulgarian ones as well).
One manufacturer of this style sometimes found in the west is Strunal -- the Czech manufacturer of cheap guitars and mandolins. Many of us remember Strunal as the culprit who made those awful flat-top imports during the Communist years, but in recent years they've been making respectible inexpensive instruments.

Mid-Missouri would be another good idea -- you've already tried the walnut; if that doesn't do it for you, one #in mahogany or maple could make a big difference.

Or perhaps one of the less expensive vintage instruments on eBay -- I see some Martins and Kays there now!

Good luck.

August W

[Eric F.]

I think the Mid-Mo M-11 has that old-timey sound. It's all mahogany. I've seen them used for $395. The M-0 and M-1, which have mahogany backs and spruce tops, might also have the sound you are after. I had an M-1 and it was really sweet sounding after a year or so of playing.

Id tell ya , but Id probably get attacked for it.......

[PhilGE]

Weber Aspen does a fine job with old-timey sound for a reasonable price - if you can order one, try it with a slightly wider neck and radiused fret board. Better yet, Bill Bussman's Old Wave A is modeled after teens Gibson A models - great tone w/a variety of strings. Yes, I own and play both, so I'm biased! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[RobP]

Thanks friends,

Lots of good ideas. #In the short term I'll check out some different mid-mo models, but keep my eyes open for some of these other ideas. #And one of these days I will have to make it back over to Stayton to Ken Cartwright's shop and have a look around (that's where I bought my Rigel).

Cheers,

Rob in Oregon (who should be spending more time practicing than thinking about new mandolins http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)

[fatt-dad]

Go buy a Flatiron 1N (or one of its cousins), but on the D'Adderio FT-74s and enjoy!

fatt-dad

[Lee]

Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always undertood that one of the desirable characteristics of the oval-A's with the 12th fret body attachment and non-raised fingerboard was more sustain, not less.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Lee - #I would tend to agree with your understanding of the body attachment/sustain issue. I am not very knowledgable compared to many of the players here, so will be interested to hear what they have to say.
I have a '42 A-50, non-raised fingerboard, and it has considerable sustain. Even with that and the f-holes, I still get a good old-time sound when needed. Plenty woody. A lot has to with how one picks and voices. I have played several teens Gibson ovals (and other more modern ovals). As lovely as they all were, I actually like my later model Gibson for many reasons - sound, playability, versatility and mojo.

rasa

[danb]

Darryl's got it.. a vintage gibson oval-hole A-model is *exactly* the sound you want.. hunt around, they're pretty easy to find!

[steve V. johnson]

I have a '36 Kalamazoo KM-11, that I just got cheaply on a whim, and it has that sound. There was just one for sale on eBay, and they still go for -way- under $1k. It seems that most of the ones that have survived to be sold are in very good shape.

I had been looking at pre-'20's Gibson A's but it's a ####-shoot to find one online... There's no way to really know the condition, and what sort of problems there might be three months or more down the road, so I gave up.

This KM will definitely sustain, as will a lot of the oval-Gibson-A's I've played and heard, so I think the lack of sustain probably comes from Mr. Blake's playing abilities.

Anyway, I love the KM. I had it re-fretted, with bigger frets, and I had to replace the original ebony nut (with a bone one) and neither change really changed the sound much. It was brighter for a while with the new nut, but mellowed back to it's nice rich sound real soon.

If you have better patience than I did, there -are-, as Dan says, lots of real nice old oval-hole Gibson A's out there.

All the best,

stv

[Nathan Sanders]

I have a Flatiron 1CH and also a 2MC for sale. Both are the flat top and back, round sound hole, army-navy style mandolins which might give you that old-timey sound. They are loud and sweet, a different sound than an F-5.

[Lee]

So let me get this right; you guys want RobP to buy an old Gibson oval hole that naturally has lots of sustain and then try to play it Like Norman Blake so it doesn't?
I'm confused http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[fatt-dad]

Fatt-dad will sell his KM-11 if interested. It is circa 1930's as cited above, has the original case, bridge, pickguard, etc. Small repaired crack on the back side (no movement) and a marr on the top (ala ball-point pen). I was looking for $475.00, but figure I may need to accept best offer. You will love this mandolin, even though there are some imperfections and one of the string posts on the machines is not original. I just replaced the strings with FT-74s and it is great!

f-d

f-d

[PhilGE]

I'd say that Norman Blake's playing has plenty of sustain when he wants to. Listen more closely and you'll see. He simply isn't slamming out chords or tunes - he's using a more delicate approach that let's the tune speak instead of him. At least, that's what I get from watching his old-time music video.

-Phil

Snakehead Gibson oval

[mandorado]

I like my old Gibson A (1917) for old time. I also recently heard a guy playing a Kalamazoo, and it sounded great for old time music.
I don't think you should have to fork out a bunch of cash to get an excellent old time sound.

[Dan Adams]

I agree with Mandorado, my 1917 Gibson A Model is great for this 'ole timey' sound, and, we both live in Colorado, that must count for something! I have another old Gibson I'm trying to find out how much it would cost to repair, renovate, or what it is worth in it's current condition.

1917. That's like twice as old as I am! Dan

[Sellars]

I recently bought a spanish mandolin, which is a flattop and flatback, but somewhat smaller than an "celtic" flattop.

It is fairly old and has a very rich sound. It sounds so dry that I get thirsty every time I play is http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

With silver&silk strings this is the perfect oldtime mandolin for me.

[8ch(pl)]

I wonder if a set of silk and steel strings will render some of the sound you are looking for.

[twaaang]

Good thought from Glen. I was hurrying to the bottom of this thread to toss in my suggestion that a set of TI "stark" strings might get you a dryer tone than whatever you have on your Rigel now. These are pricy, but a steal compared to just assuming you need to get another instrument. -- PDW

[fatt-dad]

I always assume that I need another instrument. Isn't that what MAS is all about?

F-d

[grandmainger]

This from someone with no experience in the matter at all: how about a bowl-back?

[Lee]

Now that's really Old Timey!

[TommyK]

Have you thought about muting your main mando? #Do they make mutes?
Why not try 'threading' some yarn through the strings to muffle them? ... just ahead of the bridge. #Thread over one course and under the next course, then back again. #Might be enough to dampen the sustain. #It's so cheap, it's worth a try. Definitely reversible and quick change.
Just a machine shed mechanic's thoughts.
#http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[8ch(pl)]

Sorry about the string suggestion, if you really do have MAS

[twaaang]

Having myself just fallen very hard for another mandolin that it will take the rest of my life to justify (please, Lord!), I guess my own "string" suggestion above wasn't as well considered as it should have been, either. I am well rebuked!

My own dry, old-timey needs are met by a Style B Lyon and Healy which I like to think was made the year my grandparents were married (since production records have all been lost, the dating of these wonderful instruments is somewhat moot). -- PDW

[rnjl]

In addition to the old Gibson A's, there are some current makers who craft wonderful oval hole mandolins with that "old-time" sound.

I ordered an A model from Will Parsons to get the "old-time" Gibson sound, but with a few modern features, like the 14 fret neck, and a radiused fretboard.

Will is great to work with, and I'd be happy to discuss my experience if anybody has questions.

Neal

[Lee]

Please Neal, do elaborate!

[rnjl]

Hi Lee- I'd heard about Will's mandolins here on the Board and seen them for sale occasionally, then found his contact info in the "builder's section."

I ordered what is basically a modern A-4, as you can see below, with a rosette, a radiused fretboard, and a longer, "F-style" neck, as well as a rounder, thicker neck profile. I personally do not at all like the Gibson "v" neck shape, so this neck was made to be like a Flatiron I have.

It's a fine mandolin, which sounds like a dry, woody Gibson , but has the modern features described above. The only slight thing I don't like about it is the contemporary, "swoopy" fretboard extension, but that's no big deal. This would be a GREAT mandolin for an old-time player, in my opinion.

I have more pics if anybody wants to see them- email me off line.

peace,

Neal

[TommyK]

Bear in mind that the recordings you may be listening to are influenced by the limits of the recording equipment. Some of his stuff was recorded back in the days of vacuum tubes. If you're looking for an 'exact' match for the tone, you may never find it. That 'old timey' sound might just be primative recording equipment.

[jlb]

My vote goes for a pre-Loar A, a Lyon & Healy (if you don't need much volume), or an Old Wave oval-hole...in my experience, Bill Bussman has done the best job replicating that old teens Gibson tone at a fair price.

[doanepoole]

From my CD sleeves, it looks like the vast majority of recent of Norman Blake mandolin recordings are performed using pre-Loar Gibson A's.

I'm also a huge fan of this era of Gibson mandolins. But beware...alot of them out there can be busted up pretty bad. If you go down this route, try to deal with someone who will give you a trial period if you can't "try before you buy".

I have noticed Charles Johnson's website seems to be a major player in the Gibson A-game.

[Michael H Geimer]

I'm not saying it would beat an old Gibson oval hole, but my Mid-Mo M-11 (all mahogany) has that old-timey character and tone, and mine's strung up with Silk and Steel strings.

- Benig

[RobP]

I have been looking at the Mid-mo's at the local music store. All they have stocked recently is the walnut one and the mini-mo. The walnut one sounded nice, but not what I was looking for. The mini-mo did have possiblities though.. and would make a good mando for work.

I'll have to check and see if they get a m-11

Thanks!

Rob

[Loren Bailey]

I got to play a whole slew of mid-mos at a shop just outside of Baltimore. IMO, the M-0 was the best, hands down. Had a cool old timey vibe to it and it played great all the way up the neck. I'd go play a Weber, then come back to the Mid Mo, go play a Collings, then come back to the M-0. They can be found for around $350 and I don't think you can beat them for the price. When I can convince the "boss" a Mid Mo will be my mando #3.

Loren

[kebmando]

I played a mahogany-backed mid-mo (M-1?) that really blew me away, and as I recall it was really quite affordable.

I really like the Weber flattops. I lucked out this year on E-bay and got a Weber Aspen #2 in great shape for about the cost of a new Mid-Mo. It didn't even get very many bids. Took a shot in the dark and it ended up being a great old-timey mando. I just mention that because you might keep your eye out for some used deals...

[Lee]

Neil, nice looking mando. Is the swoopy extension scalloped? My old-timey thing had been a '30's Bacon Student model. But I found the skinny frets and flat fretboard and just-functional tuners annoying. I fell in love with this Old Wave first time I played it. Gentle curve to the fretboard with pristine fretwork and a yummy tone. OK, so I spent a few hundred more than a decent vintage <Black Tape> brand oval, but I get all the modern features and the "lifetime of the builder" warranty. well worth it IMHO.

[Alekos]

Hi Lee, I haven't heard from you for some time but I guess this is the old-wave you were talking about! It looks really wonderfull! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[RobP]

What about the Martins?

Rob

[Lee]

Hi Alekos,
Still here. Thanks, that's the one. I'll drop you line. One or two Cafe members have been travelling to your neck of the woods. Meet up with any of them? I'd jump at the chance to get over there.

[John Flynn]

What about the Martins?
The old Martin bent tops are great. Not a lot of volume, but great tone. Norman Blake says he keeps one sitting on his couch at home and it is the mando that he does a lot of composing and arranging on, becuase it is always handy.

[RobP]

Bent tops?

[John Flynn]

Yeah, the old Martins had a crease or "bend" in the top. It had a similar effect to an arched top, creating more space in the sound chamber, although it was not as efficient in making the instrument louder. Some bowlbacks have bent tops also.

[Martin Jonas]

Yeah, the old Martins had a crease or "bend" in the top.(...) Some bowlbacks have bent tops also.
Almost all of them, in fact. It's usually called a "cant". They increase the downward pressure of the strings on the bridge and the top and thereby provide a better acoustic coupling.

Martin

[Seth Austen]

There's something about an oval hole Gibson A, while it can do sustain and pretty, it also haves that "thunk" when you want it.

That said, when I want that sound I can get it from whatever mandolin I have, oval or F hole, so that sound is in one's picking technique as well.

[Ancient]

Old dead strings will give you that dry woody sound.

[RobP]

Wow gang.. this is my first multi-page thread!

Thanks for all the inputs and discussion... this site is priceless!

Rob