Thinking of a cheap import

[ShaneJ]

Are you wondering which cheap import mando to buy?

Here's something to think about....

I bought a KM350s a few weeks ago so I'd have something to pick on while I attempt to build my first. I decided I would refret it with larger frets and radius the fretboard in the process. Once I got the frets pulled, I decided to sand the back of the neck and apply a couple coats of tung oil. I got an ebony bridge and a piece of bone to make a nut too. It came with decent tuners already, and I didn't want to spend any more money on an upgraded tailpiece. With the neck/fretboard work, bone nut and good bridge, it would be a decent player.

I got the neck sanded, fretboard radiused, and frets installed and dressed - oh, and I scooped the extension too - yesterday and today. I found one fret that wasn't quite set just above the neck joint though. I went back to the garage to seat the fret. Well, (you guessed it) I gave it a good firm tap and the "dovetail joint" broke loose and the top cracked about 4 inches.

I went ahead and heated up the fretboard and took it off the neck and took the neck off. The "dovetail joint" (I use that term loosely here) was hardly a joint. The fit of the joint was horible. Shims were badly needed, but there weren't any. The joint was filled with some kind of crystallized glue and sawdust between the neck and the block. I had noticed before that the neck didn't have much angle, but I didn't know if that was just the design or what. I still don't know what angle the factory intends. I looks like they cut the dovetail slot big enough to allow a quick fit after filling it up with glue and then just let it dry.

It would not be a problem if you just left well enough alone and played it. Don't get me wrong - I'm not mad at Kentucky. I'm the idiot that hit it with a hammer! The glue didn't break either. The REALLY soft woods did. Of course, the top is supposed to be soft (spruce). The block and the neck are not much harder than the spruce though. I don't know if the block is mahogany, but it doesn't look like it. It's pretty light-colored. The neck kind of looks like maple. There's no figure, but it's very light. Actually, the neck and the block aren't much harder than white pine.

My point that would-be mandolin buyers should consider is this: if you want to buy a decent mando and play it as-is off the shelf, then this KM350s would have been a great instrument for you as long as you didn't drop it or abuse it. It had a decent sound.

If I'd have just put on a new bridge and nut (fitted properly), it would have been nice. I could have removed the fretboard to radius and refret it too and avoided the problem. But, if you want quality wood and fine construction then you'll need to spend a little more money. No big surprises there, I guess.

Anyway....I'm one of those guys that can't leave well enough alone. I'm always trying to tinker with stuff to make it "just a little bit better". Maybe my little experience can at least be educational.

Lesson 1: If you want quality, you'll have to pay for it.

Lesson 2: Don't jack with stuff if it's already as good as it's gonna get.

[TommyK]

Where does Rogue fit into the hierarchy of POShinola and other fine instruments?
How does one Retro-radius a fretboard? Do you have to remove it? or do you just sand the edges to a sharp edge?

I've been bitten by the MAS bug and don't want to get bitten by the acquisition if I'm too hamfisted to hando a mando.

Used isn't much of an option as I live in a mando deficient area. New, I'm afraid, is going to have to be purchased sight unseen.

[Darryl Wolfe]

glue it back together and move on... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Remember the old saying.... "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".

[Darryl Wolfe]

So does it look something like this now??
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[ShaneJ]

Darryl,

Yep, that's pretty close. As for glueing it back together.... That's exactly what I plan to do. I removed the crystalized glue from the neck joint. It looked like old honey that turned to suger. I will fill the joint with some kind of glue or maybe epoxy and a shim or two and see what happens.

I need to glue the splits in the top too. They went back together tight, but I don't want the top to collapse when I string it up.


TommyK--
To radius the fretboard, I removed the frets and made a couple of passes down each edge with a plane to knock them down a bit. Then I made a 10" radius sanding block by marking the curve on 3 2X2's and cutting it on my scroll saw. I glued them together and sanded the radius on the end of my beltsander to get it perfectly even. Then I held some sandpaper on it and sanded the fretboard until it fit the radius. That part was really pretty easy, and so was the refretting. I guess I didn't get that one slot cleaned out deep enough. I should have gone a little overboard on the fret slots and glued the frets in instead of trying to keep the slots tight.

Live and learn! Good thing I wasn't working on a Loar or Dude or something, huh? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dru Lee Parsec]

The only universally true law of economics is this:

Best Price, Best Quality, On Time: You can only have 2 of the 3.

Or as a buddy of mine use to say: "Buy the best and you only cry once".

[ShaneJ]

Here is what it looks like now. #Glue is drying.....

(note the offending hammer on the bench - OK, I'm the offender. But that was the hammer.)

[ShaneJ]

Here's the neck after removing finish....

Ever notice all the KMs on eBay with a broken headstock? #If they use the same glue to stick the headstock onto the neck as they do in the neck block, it's no wonder. #Not a 1-piece neck, as you can see once the black goop is removed.

[ShaneJ]

This is the truss rod that was in it. I honestly can't make it move. The nut screws on/off of the threaded end, but once it's tightened that's it. The truss rod itself is not affected by whether the nut is tight, loose, or even taken off altogether. It looks to me like it's just for show, other than any stiffness supplied by the metal.

Is there something I'm missing? I don't claim to be a truss rod expert.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Informative pictures.....things like this are good to know for future reference

[TommyK]

So does it look something like this now?? # # #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
That looks like the "Anne Dolin" model.

[TommyK]

"...Live and learn! #Good thing I wasn't working on a Loar or Dude or something, huh? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif "
If you'd have been working on a Loar, you'd have been well advised to not admit it here. It coulda got you banned for life. It may seem like alot of work, but you're a better luthier for the effort. Not to mention wiser when you have the opportunity to work on a Loar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[TommyK]

This is the truss rod that was in it. #I honestly can't make it move. #The nut screws on/off of the threaded end, but once it's tightened that's it. #The truss rod itself is not affected by whether the nut is tight, loose, or even taken off altogether. #It looks to me like it's just for show, other than any stiffness supplied by the metal. #

Is there something I'm missing? #I don't claim to be a truss rod expert.
Laying on a bench, I you wont see any movement in the truss rod itself. The truss rod is nothing more than a specialized bolt.
Think of a bolt and nut threaded through a coiled spring. When the nut makes contact with the spring, it begins to work. Tighten it further and it compresses the spring. Loosen it and the spring re-expands.
On a stringed instrument, guitar, mando, etc. You are moving, the neck when you tighten or loosen the truss rod. The neck (and strings) are the spring. If the nut bottoms runs out of thread before it contacts the neck, it's too long and / or not enough thread.
Ideally, you want to adjust the truss rod to make the neck straight while under full string tension. Thats all, straighten the neck. Some think it's for adjusting action. That's absolutely wrong. Adjust action at the nut or saddle. Hope that helps.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[TommyK]

One other note:
If the glue honey colored and crystalized, I'd be willing to bet a shiny new pick they used liquid hide glue. #That's the kind of hide glue you can get at the store in a squeeze bottle like school glue. #The bottle is brown and the stuff inside is honey colored. #While it is hide glue, it's got a chemical in it to keep it liquified at room temperature. #This weakens hide glue. #'Real' hide glue is solid at room temperature. #It comes as a powder. #
If you want good info about hide glue and it's properties, see Frets.com for a plain English explanation. #Powdered hide glue is hard to find in homeowner sized quantities (less than 5lbs). #Did you know Jello is just flavored hide glue???http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif # Frets.com explains how to find hide glue in the grocery store or the kitchen cabinet in 4oz packets. You'll want to use the non-flavored, non-sugared variety. #Skeptical? Try this: next time you have Jello, put a little gob of it on the back side of a spoon and lay it on the table for 24 hrs.
BTW Epoxy will work too, but you'll never get it apart... assuming you ever want to do this again. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[ShaneJ]

Thanks, Tommy. #I wasn't sure what kind of glue it was. #I definitely don't plan on taking the thing apart again, and the gap in joint is so big (1/16" or even a little bigger in some spots - all the way around). #I'll need something pretty dang thick to keep it from running out. #I've though about cutting a piece of mahogany to fit inside the "female" part of the joint to fill it up and then recutting it smaller to fit the "male" part on the neck. #That seems like a lot of trouble for this instrument though. #If I can find something thick enough to just glue it up as it is, I'll probably do that.

You use the word "luthier" pretty loosely, calling me one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I'm not sure I would feel comfortable even playing a Loar, much less attempting to work on one.

Thanks for your help. #I appreciate it!

[TommyK]

Well as far as the term Luthier goes... While I wouldn't trust a Podiatrist to do brain surgery, he is still a Doctor.

You haven't shown the joint so I have to do a little surmizing. #I'm assuming it is a little like a C.F.Martin dovetail joint. #
To take up the slack you'll want to get a bundle of shims at the lumber yard. #If you aren't familiar with these, they're strips of wood about 1.5" wide and 8 - 12" long. #They're about .25" at one end and taper to 0.00" at the other. #They sell a bundle of 50 - 100 for about $2. #They make good paint stirrers too.
THe secret to these shims is this: #Stack one on top of another with the ends reversed. #Since they're cut at the same angle, the top and bottom of the stack is are fairly parallel. #Slide the top one up the ramp of the bottom one and the stack becomes thicker. #Slide it the other way and it becomes thinner.... Cool, hunh? #Elemetary Geometry my dear Watson, Geometry!
You should be able to cut a couple of these down to fit in the gap, then slide to fit! (don't forget the glue).
4 shims and a little Knox gelatin and you'll have a joint as tight as Scrooge McDuck!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[TommyK]

Remember the old saying.... "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".
Yeah but, It makes for darn good Head Cheese!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[ShaneJ]

I just sliced some yellow pine thin to make my own level-width shims. We'll see how it looks when the glue dries....

[ShaneJ]

Well, I'm pickin' the old KM350 right now. I got it back together with the radiused board, larger frets, properly fitted bridge base, new J75's (and the "distressed" look of no binding on the fretboard along with a cracked top next to the fingerboard extender and cracked finish around the neck joint). I decided not to spend much effort on making it look good from here. Everybody needs a campfire mando that you can burn to stay alive if you're out in the freezing cold. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As for playability and sound, it's actually better than it was (for me). I like larger frets and radiused fretboards. I think fitting the bridge to the top helped the sound too. I REALLY like the sanded neck. It is much easier to move around than it was with the thicker laquer - or whatever they put on it.

I'll try to record a song and post it on the Mandolin Project site just to prove it still plays.

[TommyK]

Bill M's F5 had a crack or two too. #Did you know that one time he got so fed up with Gibson when they had his for warranty work that when he finally got it back he took out his Barlow and scratched "The Gibson" right off the head? #Now that's distress! I have a BG song book with Bill's picture. Yup, nothin' but spinters where "The Gibson" was.
As for your distressed look, There's black paint in town. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[ShaneJ]

As for your distressed look, There's black paint in town. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Are you crazy? I'd ruin the cool "vibe" and any potential collector's interest in the future http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've got wood on it's way to me now anyway. I'm gonna try my hand at starting from scratch this time. It can't be too much harder than trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Meanwhile, I'll just keep pickin' what I got. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[ShaneJ]

OK, here's a couple of pics of it now that it's playable - not pretty, just playable.

[ShaneJ]

Here's the new scoop on the newly radiused fretboard.

[ShaneJ]

I recorded a couple of quick tunes with it today, and uploaded them to the Mandolin Project Yahoo group site (http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/mandolinproject/files/Miscellaneous%20Musings/). I guess Craig will move them to the Mandolin Project Miscellaneous Musings section (http://www.mandolinproject.150m.com/misc.html) when he gets time. If you're a member of the Yahoo group, you can download them from there in the meantime.

I recorded I'll Fly Away and Wayne Benson's Tucker, just to give a quick idea of the sound now. If you wanted to compare the sound before I tore it up to sound now, you can download Cold Frosty Morning.

On that site, I'm either "shane2mc" or "mando4pickin". I changed yahoo ID's recently. I didn't tear up the old one though! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ShaneJ]

BTW, as for the trussrod.... The short "tube" that the threaded rod goes through - right where the nut - is has been soldered to the rod, so it can't be pushed back by the nut to flex the rod. It's definitely stationary. I didn't bother putting in a new one or trying to free it up. The neck's straight. I ran it over the belt sander after glueing it back on, just for good measure.