Octave mandolin question

[shipofwooks]

Hey guys. I am a banjo player of 3 years and I am really interested in learning the octave mandolin. I just have a couple questions

harder/easier than mandolin?
can i capo it to a regular mandolin tuning to play as a regular mando in bluegrass music?
what is a good instrument for a beginner?

in regards to the last question, I notice that if the quality of my instrument is not very good, I have little interest in learning. so I would like a reasonably priced instrument suitable for a beginner, but something I wouldn't get sick of



Thanks a lot, Dan

[newf playing a mando]

I am a learning mandolin player and just this past summer bought a Trinity College Ocatve mandolin and it is awesome. first thing i would recommend is heavier stings right away. put j76's on it and enjoy.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Nope. Even on a good quality OM - which you would need to keep the intonation on the higher frets - the capo would have to be set at the 12th fret for mandolin pitch - you would get the same tuning but an octave lower without a capo and that could be used for BG - check out John McGann. Tuning the strings a few notes higher would allow you to move the capo further down the neck but beware the increased tension... Even using a Bouzouki it's tough the play that high up the neck (capoing the 12th fret)...

[Marcus CA]

Hey guys. I am a banjo player of 3 years and I am really interested in learning the octave mandolin. I just have a couple questions

harder/easier than mandolin?

The main area where the OM is harder comes when you play in a key that requires you to go from the sixth fret on one string to the first fret of the next string up, or vice versa. On a mandolin, you can play both notes from one left-hand position, but on an OM, you need to slide your left hand between positions because each finger only covers one fret, rather than two like on a mandolin.

I found it pretty easy to pick up the OM because I had been playing guitar for a few decades and mandolin for a few years. For the OM, I basically draw on both of those meager parts of my brain.



in regards to the last question, I notice that if the quality of my instrument is not very good, I have little interest in learning. so I would like a reasonably priced instrument suitable for a beginner, but something I wouldn't get sick of

The good news is that money goes a lot farther for an OM than for a mandolin.

[man dough nollij]

I second the suggestion of the Trinity College OM. I got one used from a shop, and I loved it. I got mine for about $500, and it sounded great and was easy to play. The next step up would be a used Petersen, or Weber Sage, or maybe a new Gypsy (Cafe Sponsor). Good luck! :mandosmiley:

[Mandoviol]

On a mandolin, you can play both notes from one left-hand position, but on an OM, you need to slide your left hand between positions because each finger only covers one fret, rather than two like on a mandolin.

I've always been somewhat confused as to how this works. Does this mean that each fret on the OM is worth two half-steps? Or that fret spacing is big enough that fourth finger in first position is not (if we look at the D string) an "A" like on the mandolin/fiddle, but rather an "F#?":confused:

Please elucidate!

[Mandobart]

I believe Marcus is refering to the difference in scale lengths and hence longer stretch on the OM as compared to the mandolin. On all fretted inst. I'm familiar with, one fret = 1/2 step always. In standard OM tuning, a note played anywhere on an OM will be one octave below the note played on a standard tuned mando. at the same fret/string.

I believe the statement means that on the mandolin, each finger on your left hand is within easy reach of several frets without re-positioning the hand (moving up or down the neck) but on an OM the physical distance between frets usually requires moving your hand up or down to go up or down one fret on the same finger.

Harder or easier? Well there are more choices in beginning inst on mando than OM. The mando is smaller and a little more portable; my OM is almost guitar-sized. It also depends on your hand size. I find the mando just a little cramped; there is more room for my fingers on the OM. But I love both and really couldn't choose between them. The OM may be more familiar to you as the scale length is closer to the banjo than the mando's is.

[sgarrity]

Or that fret spacing is big enough that fourth finger in first position is not (if we look at the D string) an "A" like on the mandolin/fiddle, but rather an "F#?":confused:

YOu got it right there. It's just like a guitar. First position is:

Index finger -- 1st fret
Middle finger -- 2nd fret
Ring finger -- 3rd fret
Pinky finger -- 4th fret and so on

So third position would be your index finger on the third fret. At least his is how I play guitar. We'll see how well I adapt when I get my OM.

[mikeyes]

Dan,

It depends on the kind of music you play. Capoing an OM to the twelfth fret to play like a mandlolin would not work very well for bluegrass but would be fun with OT, Irish or ballads. But there is a difference between an OM and a mandolin both in technique and sound so you would really be playing an OM at the twelfth fret rather than a mandolin.

An OM is not a big mandolin, it is a separate instrument that responds well to techniques that suit it. Because there is more sustain, lower notes, and a longer scale you will have to change your right and left hand technique to get the most out of the instrument. The same is true even with a mandola (the American meaning of the word tuned in cgda with a 15" scale.)

As for the "finger covers only one fret" business, that has to do with the scale length. Most mandolins have a scale in the 13" range while an OM is often in the 21" range. With a mandolin an average finger span can cover to the tenth fret or so with a little stretching. On an OM (or tenor banjo/tenor guitar) the average stretch can reach the 6th fret, maybe, and in order to reach the seventh fret you would have to move your hand to second or third position (i.e. your base finger, the first one, is on the second or third fret.) As a scale gets longer the distance between the frets increases but the notation remains the same. So doing the scale on one string on an acoustic bass takes a lot more movement than on a mandolin.

[Mandoviol]

I believe Marcus is refering to the difference in scale lengths and hence longer stretch on the OM as compared to the mandolin. On all fretted inst. I'm familiar with, one fret = 1/2 step always. In standard OM tuning, a note played anywhere on an OM will be one octave below the note played on a standard tuned mando. at the same fret/string.

I believe the statement means that on the mandolin, each finger on your left hand is within easy reach of several frets without re-positioning the hand (moving up or down the neck) but on an OM the physical distance between frets usually requires moving your hand up or down to go up or down one fret on the same finger.

Harder or easier? Well there are more choices in beginning inst on mando than OM. The mando is smaller and a little more portable; my OM is almost guitar-sized. It also depends on your hand size. I find the mando just a little cramped; there is more room for my fingers on the OM. But I love both and really couldn't choose between them. The OM may be more familiar to you as the scale length is closer to the banjo than the mando's is.

Well, I've got big hands, so this bodes well for my (hopeful) future addition of an OM to my instrument collection! :mandosmiley:

[allenhopkins]

Another result of the longer OM scale, that makes it less than suitable for bluegrass, is the prevalence in bluegrass of "chop" chording, where all four string courses are fretted and then the fretting hand is relaxed immediately after the chord is struck, resulting in a percussive "chop" with no "ring" or sustain afterwards. As many have pointed out, "chopping" chords on a bluegrass mandolin is quite equivalent to the off-beat on snare drum in other musical styles.

It's nearly impossible to "chop" on an octave mandolin in first position, unless you have gigundous hands, since many of the "closed" chord positions used, require fretting from the first and second frets, up to the sixth and seventh frets. There are other techniques that might come close to giving the same effect, involving "chopped" two or three-string intervals/chords, but even capoed at the twelfth fret, the larger neck and longer scale militate against a true "chop."

[John McGann]

Another result of the longer OM scale, that makes it less than suitable for bluegrass, is the prevalence in bluegrass of "chop" chording, where all four string courses are fretted and then the fretting hand is relaxed immediately after the chord is struck, resulting in a percussive "chop" with no "ring" or sustain afterwards. As many have pointed out, "chopping" chords on a bluegrass mandolin is quite equivalent to the off-beat on snare drum in other musical styles.

It's nearly impossible to "chop" on an octave mandolin in first position, unless you have gigundous hands, since many of the "closed" chord positions used, require fretting from the first and second frets, up to the sixth and seventh frets. There are other techniques that might come close to giving the same effect, involving "chopped" two or three-string intervals/chords, but even capoed at the twelfth fret, the larger neck and longer scale militate against a true "chop."

I don't think the OM would exactly replace the mandolin in a bluegrass band, though I've been in that position with my OM. I play a lot of 2 note power chords, so in A I'd be at the 2nd fret on the bottom two strings, and the chop is not unlike a swing guitar feel.

Then again, I'm a heretic... :mandosmiley:

[Poohblah]

you can still chop with an OM, but the chord positions would be different - similar to bar chords on a guitar as opposed to the four-finger chords on the mando.

Don't take my word for it because I've never even touched an OM, but it seems logical to me...

[Marcus CA]

It's just like a guitar. First position is:

Index finger -- 1st fret
Middle finger -- 2nd fret
Ring finger -- 3rd fret
Pinky finger -- 4th fret and so on

Uh, oh. That's how I play guitar, but on OM, I anchor everything one fret up from this, and then slide back a bit so my index can fret the 1st or up a bit so my pinky can catch the 6th. So, when I have to go from 6th to 1st, it's a move. Should I be shifting positions completely and then go from 6th to 8th on the same string instead?

Also, thanks, Mandobart, for clarifying my earlier reply.

[Poohblah]

Uh, oh. That's how I play guitar, but on OM, I anchor everything one fret up from this, and then slide back a bit so my index can fret the 1st or up a bit so my pinky can catch the 6th. So, when I have to go from 6th to 1st, it's a move. Should I be shifting positions completely and then go from 6th to 8th on the same string instead?

Also, thanks, Mandobart, for clarifying my earlier reply.

If you watch videos of OM players on youtube they usually use your method (at least in the videos I've seen)