Scales......

Afternoon ya'll....I've been to 4 different Guitar and Music Stores today in Dallas.....I'm not the only one having a Brain Fart today I reckon. I'm new to reading music, I just picked up a Kentucky 250....Picking and Tab is easy.........Chords - I'm getting it down. Scales...UGH....I don't know when to go down the neck.....again...4 stores in Dallas can't tell me...even the two that want to give me lessons.....I'm thinking I want to get the scales down before i jump into lessons? Help an ex-Amish pig farmer out please!!!!

[JimD]

So.. What exactly is your question about scales?

Is it a fingering or theory issue or a bit of both?

[smilnJackB]

Quote: #"Iff'n ya can't dance....might as well sell beans."
# Want to buy some beans? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Jack

[Chris Baird]

Well ex-Amish pig farmer, #I suppose you know what notes the open strings are GDAE. #From those you can figure out all the others. #A major scale starts on what ever root you choose and goes (frets) 2,2,1,2,2,2,1,2. #Notice that you can either keep going up the neck or switch over to the next string at the 5/6/7 fret. #You can work all this out yourself and then practice key fingering or you can buy a book that has it already figured out and learn em' from that.

[telepbrman]

I have been wondering about scales also. My simple question is this: Tab formed major/minor scales, Where can I find some?

[Jaded]

From what's already been posted you should be able to figure out scales on your own, but if you want a book with them already noted in tab Mel Bay has one called Scales and Studies or some such. #I didn't end up using it much, but it had lots of variations on scales in it.

A book I have found quite useful is the "Idiots Guide to Music Theory" #It has the information already presented on constructing your own scales along with the various modes, and many other areas of basic music theory, including reading sheet music...which I am finding much more helpful than tab, tho I think that's a personal preference thing.

If you do a search on Google you'll probably turn up a few sites with free basic info on scales and music theory as well.

[SeanFan]

I agree completely...scales are EXTREMELY tough...I still can't really do them. I play Guitar, and it took me awhile just to get the chords down, and I just stated the scales...and they are a tough little cookie. So, just put LOTS of practice into it, and start off SLOW...and gradually bring your speed up on them when you start getting the hang of it.

[madog99]

I agree completely...scales are EXTREMELY tough...I still can't really do them. I play Guitar, and it took me awhile just to get the chords down, and I just stated the scales...and they are a tough little cookie. So, just put LOTS of practice into it, and start off SLOW...and gradually bring your speed up on them when you start getting the hang of it.
I agree , I have always done the "every 2and fret "trick on the guitar ,you can get by , but the mando is another story. I will have to break down and actually try to LEARN how to pick a mando lead (one day)

thanks for the replies....Jim D...Its a question of both.....trying to follow the 22122212212...etc from the above response....i'm close dangit.....just that one hump stopping me.....I simply can't (don't know how) and even if i did, i wouldn't knw where to go on the neck....and, I'm bettin, I'm asking the same questions other peckers....errrrrrr pickers are dying to know......So...should I go find me a good bluegrass person and learn or try to muddle my way through? I sure do presheeate (appreciate) ya'lls input....heck, i might even take dance lessons.

[jasona]

I have been wondering about scales also. #My simple question is this: #Tab formed major/minor scales, Where can I find some?
www.mandozine.com

Best thing to do is download the free TablEdit Viewer and get the TabEdit files. You can have your scales and arpeggios in tab, standard, with midi accompaniment. You can speed them up or slow them down as you get better or want to work something specific. Then you will also be able to work on over 2400 tunes and breaks transcribed by the CoMando community.

[Emmiemando]

I've had the same problem. But seriously (and I always hate hearing this, but it really does pay off)....practice. Practice doesn't make you perfect, but it does make you better!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[newmando7]

Hey FUM,
I also have the 250 and enjoy the time with it even if it is only five minutes a day.I have purchased a few books the first which is very basic is Mandolin Method by Rich DelGrosso printed by Hal Leonard Corp this book only touches the scales the book I would recommend for you is Mandolin Fretboard Roadmaps(The essential Patterns that all the pros use)Fred Sokolow and Bob Applebaum also printed by Hal Leonard this book explains alot maybe even more than you want to know!. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Adare_Steve]

I agree completely...scales are EXTREMELY tough...
I'm sorry, but IMHO, that's the sort of inaccurate comment that puts a lot of people off really learning an instrument.

I play mainly Irish music, and really only bother with the scales of G and D. I've found nothing easier to do on the mandolin. You'll find that a pattern forms on the lower two courses and then another on the top two, which your fingers and hand get used to very quickly. It's also extrenmely satisfying to fly up and down two octaves in next to no time.

And, if you say the names of the notes to yourself as you go up and down, you'll be amazed at how fast you can then translate this knowledge to reading the notes when playing tunes.

Don't be put off learning scales. It really is easier than it seems, and the spin offs to the rest of your playing are enormous.

Steve

[pdlstl]

I agree completely...scales are EXTREMELY tough...
I'm sorry, but IMHO, that's the sort of inaccurate comment that puts a lot of people off really learning an instrument.

I play mainly Irish music, and really only bother with the scales of G and D. I've found nothing easier to do on the mandolin. You'll find that a pattern forms on the lower two courses and then another on the top two, which your fingers and hand get used to very quickly. It's also extrenmely satisfying to fly up and down two octaves in next to no time.

And, if you say the names of the notes to yourself as you go up and down, you'll be amazed at how fast you can then translate this knowledge to reading the notes when playing tunes.

Don't be put off learning scales. It really is easier than it seems, and the spin offs to the rest of your playing are enormous.

Steve
This post is spot on IMHO.

[JimD]

[QUOTE] Practice doesn't make you perfect, but it does make you better!

the best way to think of it is:

Practice makes permanent -- perfect practice makes perfect.

Go slowly and with all of the "perfection" that you can muster and things will fall into place faster than you think. It is an often noted irony that in order to play fast, you must practice slowly.

[JimD]

I agree with Steve. many people are put off by statements like that about scales, theory and note reading in general.

I want to offer a few suggestions about the 2212221 method. I'll try to be as concise as possible.

This method is a fine way to approach scales, especially on a fretted instrument. It does have its pitfalls, however.

Let's look at the theory first: (pardon the very basic nature of this discussion but I want to be clear enough...)

The distance of one fret is called a half step or a minor second. (more about this in a moment). The distance of 2 frets is called a whole step or major second.

As you surely know, we use seven letters of the alphabet to represent the musical pitches in our system: A B C D E F G A B C D etc. Numerical interval (the distance between pitches) names represent how many letters are included in that distance.

For example: A to B is a 2nd because it encompasses two letter names.
G to B is a 3rd (g-a-b)
F to C is a 5th (f-g-a-b-c)
G to the next higher G is an 8th or octave (g-a-b-c-d-e-f-g)

Without complicating things too much by explaining why, let's just say that there are two primary kinds of 2nd --the Major 2nd (M2) two frets distance and the Minor 2nd (m2) one fret distance.

So, now we can describe a major scale as:
M2, M2, m2, M2, M2, M2, m2

in C major this works out to be C D E F G A B C with half steps between E-F and B-C.

The entire (Euro-American) system of notaion and music theory is designed around C major. It is the only major scale without sharps or flats.

You can fill in the chromatic scale (all the pitches in the system) using sharps and flats. The convention (for the chromatic scale) is to use sharps ascending and flats descending:

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C
C B Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db C

notice that the half step distance between B-C and E-F can't be further divided.

Now, to write the other major scales we simply need to use our sequence of M2 and m2:

F major scale: F G A Bb C D E F (Bb not A# because A-A# is not a 2nd)

G major: G A B C D E F# G

Another way to think of this is that we need to use all of the letter names in order with no repetition to write a MAJOR scale.

So that is the theoretical explanation. If you keep these things in mind, they will help you to navigate the fingerboard and know what to call things as you do it.

I'll save fingering applications for another post. I don't want to make this one too long.

[JimD]

Since FP's question is both about theory and application, I'll continue here about practical matters.
(Thanks for indulging me. I love to talk about this stuff.)

So, you know that a major scale follows this pattern:
fret distance: 2,2,1,2,2,2,1
steps; whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half
intervals: M2, M2, m2, M2, M2, M2, m2.

The easiest way to see (not necessarily to play) this is to play it all on one string:

using Roman #s for frets:
open, II, IV V VII XI XI XII

This approach to scales has great usefulness -- but that is for another time. What you want now is a generally useful "in position" fingering.

Take an open position G major scale, for instance. Following the intervalic formula described in my previous post, we derive the following spelling G A B C D E F# G.

Starting from the g on the open 4th course:
G A B C
0 II IV V

The next pitch, D could be played on the VII fret but, as you know, D is the 5th of the scale. The mandolin is tuned in 5ths, right? Therefore, the 5th above our starting G will be found on the same fret (in this case "0") on the next string.

so, to continue:
D E F# G
0 II IV V (on the 3rd course)

A nice, simple, one-octave G major scale. To continue:

The next pitch is A, a M2 above G -- but A is also a 5th above D so:

A B C D
0 II III V

E is a 5th above A so:

E F# G A B
0 II III V VII

You can do this from any starting pitch in any location on any finger.

I don't pretend that this is very easy but it is eminently logical and a way to give your knowledge of theory and the mandolin fingerboard a good grounding. Once you figure out the fingerings, practice them slowly until they are"well-absorbed".

By the way, when we observed (above) that D is a 5th above G and therefore on the same fret on the next string. we exposed another important fact:

Since the C and D are a M2 apart, we have discovered that a major 2nd is five frets lower (-5) on the next string. By extension, the minor 2nd (m2) is down six frets on the next string. This opens up even more options for us and expands our fingerboard knowledge...

This is true on any pair of strings that are tuned a fifth apart -- mandolin, mandola, mandocello, tenor banjo, certain guitar tunings, certain bouzouki tunings...

Once you are comfortable with the major scales, the pentatonics, minors and modes etc. are easy by comparison.

Learning your scales and theory still require hard work and persistance but the rewards are great and many.

[Flyer]

WOW....Thanks Mr. JD....

A LOT of info to absorb. I am going to print this all out so I can read and re-read all of this.....



http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mike

[chirorehab]

This has helped me ALOT!!

Jazzmando.com FFCP (http://members.aol.com/teesch/FFCP.html)

Good luck,

Eric

[JimD]

So, today I am sitting in a classroom giving the new crop of students their music theory and ear training placement exams and it dawns on me that there is still another related approach to scale theory that is beautifully adaptable to the mandolin.

This is the concept of building the major scale from what we call the "major tetrachord". A tetrachord is a four note group. A major tetrachord is :

frets: 2,2,1
intervals: M2, M2, m2
steps: whole, whole, half.

Think back to the scale intervals of 2, 2, 1, [2], 2, 2, 1
and you can see that it is made up of two major tetrachords connected by a whole step

OR

You can think of it as two major tetrachords a fifth apart. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Remember that the mandolin is tuned in fifths- so the same fret on two adjacent strings will give us the interval of a fifth. Well, the tetrachord falls beautifully under the fingers --for example: II fret -- 1st finger, IV fret -- 2nd finger, #VI fret -- 3rd finger, VII fret -- 4th finger.

Just do that on any two adjacent strings, from any starting fret and you have the major scale of the pitch that you start on.

Simply another way to conceptualize the relationships -- one that seems to fit our instrument very well.

Just for fun -- try this tetrachord instead:
frets: 2, 1, 2
intervals: M2, m2, M2
steps: whole, half, whole

If you do this tetrachord on two adjacent strings you get the Dorian mode. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mandocrucian]

The mathematical analysis approach to explaining theory is on the unwieldy side, for my tastes. #

A "scale" (or "chord", etc.) is a just descriptive term for a particular grouping of notes which produce a certain sound. It's like the word "tiger" - the word isn't actually the animal, it's just a mutually agreed upon name so we don't have to rehash a visual description of one over and over. #Or "leopard". #How many stripes the tiger has is unimportant unless you are a biologist, as are the number of spots on a leopard; the important detail is that the tiger is big and has stripes, whereas the leopard has spots and isn't quite as big, and if you start bothering either, you're in trouble.

Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do.... that sound is called a major scale. #If the first note (do) starts on G, then you will hear a G Major Scale. #If it starts on an A, it's an A Major Scale. #The most important thing is to first put the sound of it in your head, you can attach various note names afterwards.

<span style='font-family:courier'>----------0-2-4-5--
-0-2-4-5-----------</span>

There you go, a one octave major scale starting on an open string.

If you want to start on the low G, instead of singing Do-re-mi... you can sing the words G-2-4-5--D-2-4-5. #

If you want to start on the open D, sing: D-2-4-5--A-2-4-5

Or an A major scale starting on the open A: A-2-4-5--E-2-4-5.

Do this while you play the notes on your instrument; the pattern of this (major) scale will be burned into your memory very quickly.

You can also burn in the note names by singing them while playing them ... G A B C D E Fis G, #
or D E Fis G A B Cis D (D major scale),
or A B Cis D E Fis Gis A (A major scale)

I use the European way of singing the sharps and flats because it is a single syllable rather than "F-sharp" or "B-flat" etc. #It's just a suffix alteration of the unadorned consonant. #Fis (pronounced feece) = F#. #Cis (cease) = C#; Gis (geese) = G#, and so on. (It's not that hard....little 6 year-olds in Germany, Scandinavia, Hungary etc. have no trouble with it.)


If you want to start the scale on the 2nd fret instead of the open string, the pattern is:

<span style='font-family:courier'>-----------------0-----------
--------0-2-4-6--------------
--2-4-6----------------------</span>

Then you can learn a one octave scale starting at the 5th fret on a string, or starting on the 3rd fret, and so on...

<span style='font-family:courier'>------------0-2-3--&#124;---------------0-1--
----0-2-3-5--------&#124;------0-2-3-5-------
--5----------------&#124;--3-5---------------</span>

Then maybe I go on working to on the <span style='color:red'>natural minor scale

<span style='font-family:courier'>----------0-1-3-5--
-0-2-3-5-----------</span>

(Do-re-me-fa-so-le-te-do)</span>

= = = =

I'm not saying that the information provided in the other posts is "wrong", because it is correct. I just use a different sequence of presenting the pertinent information.

For example: You move into a new town. 1) You can start memorizing all the streets and avenues from a map before going anywhere. #Or, 2) first learn the most direct way to the workplace from home, and then the way to get to the grocery store, or the school, or the library, or the park, or wherever. At this point#I don't need to know all the names of the streets in town and ones I'm won't be using. #Eventually, I'll get that...as I need to know those details.

Niles H

[luckylarue]

Well said Mandocrucian. Is this amish pig farmer for real? Nobody writes words like "presheeate" and is sincere about it. Fess up, pig farmer, reveal thy true self!

[JimD]

Niles,

Thanks for changing the focus.

Actually, with my students and for things I, myself, am learning, my approach is to get the sound of the thing into the ears first and let the fingers follow.

The reason I took so much time to discuss the numerical approach is that it had been brought up so many times (and a few of those times with evident misconceptions).

The best approaches to learning anything are holistic. I find that I only really grasp music-theoretical concepts #by absorbing the sound and turning them (the concepts) over and over to explain them in different ways.

The part that I am really sorry I didn't mention is the singing of the scale. You are absolutely correct. If we all sing our scales (and arpeggios, licks, melodies and any ther musical ideas), they really do become part of our "inner musicianship" faster than by any other approach. The ear and the brain are the primary musical organs, aren't they?

So, bottom line is:
Yes, I agree with you.

But, the other thing we need to remember is that all of these theoretical constructs are simply a means to an end.

Scales are a great way to learn the basic fingering patterns on an instrument.

They are a slightly less good way to learn about tonal relationships (the relationship of tones to chords etc.)for composing and improvising. The least interesting music I have heard has been made by people who were unable to get beyond scales in their creativity. A better approach -- and one emphasizes hearing -- is to understand the relationship of pitches as a series of relative tensions or consonance and dissonance.

This, though, should be an entirely different thread.

[ChrisWallace]

Jim,
At the risk of hijacking this thread, would you mind expounding on your last post. I'm intrigued!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Thanks,
ChrisW

[JimD]

[QUOTE]Jim,
At the risk of hijacking this thread, would you mind expounding on your last post. #I'm intrigued!!
Chris,

The point that I was trying to make is that the knowledge of scales is not enough. Scales are simply a theoretical construct, anyway, as Niles points out, too.

The relationship of tones to each other (or scale content to chord content) as being relatively consonant or dissonant has been dscussed by music theorists form the time of Pythagoras. That kind of quantification is interesting but only useful up to a point. The psychological/emotional response to the combination of musical sounds cannot be quantified -- and because it can't , we have infinite variety in music.

Why do some combinations of tones sound sad or nostalgic and others uplifting? Why do some musical gestures sound like endings and others like beginnings or continuations?

Interesting questions -- but ones that need to be answered by each creative musician for him/herself. The composer/improvisor's art is to engage the listener by these types of musical devices. Among other things, we set up expectations and either fulfill them or artfully sidestep them as a way of maintaining interest and achieving our musical goals.

As a practical exercise, let's take an example:

We may be taught that you can play a C mixolydian scale ( C D E F G A Bb C) over a C7 chord (C E G Bb).

The scale contains all of the notes of the chord plus a few extra. It works fine. If you improvise with this scale over this chord you will make "correct" sounds. But, is it interesting? There is so much more to music than running through scales.

Which tones give a sense of rest, resolution or stasis? Which imply motion or unrest?

The chord tones are C, E, G and Bb. Do they all give the same effect?

What about the non-chord tones? Are you hearing them as dissonances that need resolution to a chord tone or as extensions of the chord?

For example: D can be a dissonant passing tone between C & E or it can be the 9th of an extended dominant chord. Try it. The D has a different sound each way:
passing tone -- C-D-E or E-D-C
9th --C-E-G-Bb-D

AND -- what about the pitches that aren't in the mixolydian scale ---Db, Eb (D#), F#, G# (Ab) and B --are they unusable simply because they aren't in the scale?

Certainly not! -- Depending on style and context, of course.

Db is the b9
Eb is the "blue 3rd" -- D# is the #9 ( and yes, that pitch sounds different in each of these contexts.)
F# is the #11 and has a different kind of effect depending on whether you resolve to G or E (or at all!) and whether it is in an accented position(on a strong beat) or not.
etc.

All of this is still just the tip of the iceberg. It can't be quantified, really -- it must be heard and expeienced and that takes time and attention.

One way to begin to experience the interaction of tones is to play (or better still, sing) the pitches of a scale over a drone. Make a tape of a single note drone (if you ask a friend to play the drone for this long, you'll be looking for new friends before long...)

Don't mindlessly run the scale but listen deeply to each pitch as it interacts with the drone. Does it sound stable? Does it need to resolve? up or down? Does it provoke an emotional response in you?

This kind of thing can (should?) be done daily. It can be quite meditative and relaxing. There are forms in the music traditions of India that are quite similar to this.

The 18th century French composer, Rameau said,"It is often by seeing and hearing music rather than by rules, that taste is formed"

[TommyK]

GDAE... Is that what they call Australian tuning? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[TommyK]

[QUOTE= ]Jim,
At the risk of hijacking this thread, would you mind expounding on your last post. #I'm intrigued!!
Chris,

The point that I was trying to make is that the knowledge of scales is not enough. Scales are simply a theoretical construct, anyway,...to chord content) as being relatively consonant or dissonant has been dscussed by music theorists form the time of Pyth...ite variety in music.

Why do some combinations of tones sound sad or nostalgic and others uplifting? Why do som...Interesting questions -- but ones that need to be answered by each creative musician for him/herself. The composer/impro...either fulfill them or artfully sidestep them as a way of maintaining interest and achieving our musical goals."

He further explains,

As a practical exercise, let's take an example:

...mixolydian scale ( C D E F G A Bb C) over a C7 chord (C E G Bb)."

Mix a whatian? #Is that legal in the UK? #

Further he expounds, " The scale contains all of the notes of the chord plus a few extra. It works fine. If you improvise with this scale over this chord you will make "correct" sounds. But, is it interesting? There is so much more to music than r...Which imply motion or unrest?

The chord tones are C, E, G and Bb. Do they all give the same effect?...For example: D can be a dissonant passing tone between C & E or it can be the 9th of an extended dominant chord. Try it. The D has a different sound each way:
passing tone -- C-D-E or E-D-C
9th ...Certainly not! -- Depending on style and context, of course.
...Does it need to resolve? up or down? Does it provoke an emotional response in you?"

And Lastly, he informs, " This kind of thing can (should?) be done daily. It can be quite meditative and relaxing. There are forms in the mus...taste is formed"

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #
I guess there's a lot more to this music thing than I had realized. I just wanna know where Middle C is.

[reeljigs]

Jim,
How would you explain the minor scales as you did the Major scales (i.e whole whole half whole whole whole half)? And what exactly is the difference between melodic, harmonic and (i think there is a third)??

thanks!

[Pickin-8]

Howdy ya'll....Its me...FumDucker....admin had me change the name....figured someone might get tongue tied. Lucky...yes...for real....We even use the word "chonder" too....I sure do presheeate all this help....I found a techer, I start tomorrow....I figure i have 3 hours a day......I'm determined to "git'er done"......Jim and Mando.......amazin......thanks

[JimD]

[QUOTE]Jim,
How would you explain the minor scales as you did the Major scales (i.e whole whole half whole whole whole half)? And what exactly is the difference between melodic, harmonic and (i think there is a third)??

There are, according to standard music theory, three kinds of minor scales:
natural minor
harmonic minor
melodic minor

The natural minor is:
frets: 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2
steps: whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole,whole
intervals: #M2, m2, M2, M2, m2, M2, M2

The best way to learn the other two is in relation to this one.

The natural minor for A minor is:

A #B #C #D #E #F #G #A -- no flats or sharps -- it is the relative minor (same key signature) to C Major

To form the Harmonic minor scale for A, we use its primary harmonies (chords) i, iv and V (minor one chord, minor four chord, major five chord) The reason for these choices will be left for another time.

Am -- A, C, E
Dm -- D, F, A
E #-- E, G#, B

Combining these three harmonies into a scale gives us the A Harmonic minor:
A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A

Take note of the intervals:
M2, m2, M2, M2, m2, A2 (augmented 2nd --1 1/2 steps), m2

Throughout much of the history of music this interval (the augmented 2nd) was avoided as being "problematic". It was thought of as being either too dificult to sing in tune or too disturbing to the nature of the rest of the melody.

Of course, it has also been used for ethnic color or for specific effects and to most of us today, there would be nothing objectionable.

So, to execute this scale, simply play the natural minor and raise the 7th of the scale by a half step.

The melodic minor came about as a solution to the "problem" of the augmented second interval in the harmonic minor scale. #By raising the 6th of the scale by a half step as well as the 7th, we once again have a scale pattern of only whole and half steps.

In intervals:

M2, m2, M2, M2, M2, M2, m2 (when ascending) for the descending scale use the natural minor scale.

The A melodic minor scale:

A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A (ascending)
A, G, F, E, D, C, B, A (descending)

Why does is scale different going up and down? Well, the easiest way to state it is that the G# is needed for harmonic reasons (so that there is a major V chord). The F# smooths out the motion to the G#. But since the top part of the scale now resembles the major scale, the minor flavor of the scale is somewhat sacrificed - in particular the color of the 6th scale degree and the minor iv chord. These are restored in the descending version of the scale.

Now to clear up a very common misconception:
The scale really doesn't work this way in actual practice. It (the melodic minor scale) is really just a theoretical construct. The best way to think of it is that the minor scale can have a variable 6th anf 7th degree -- depending upon context for an appropriate choice.

Quick recap:

A natural minor: A. B. C. D. E. F. G. A
A harmonic minor: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A
A melodic minor: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A and natural minor descending.
Best approach for understanding the way minor really works: A, B, C, D, E, F or F#, G or G#, A

Confused yet? Here is another wrinkle. Another thing you may run into is the so called "jazz melodic minor" which uses only the ascending version of the classical melodic minor. In other words, don't change to the natural version when descending -- A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A

Also, (and don't let this throw you!) the Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian modes are all considered minor modes because they have a minor 3rd (one and a half steps above the tonic pitch).

The interval A to C is a minor 3rd. This is a feature of all minor scales -- the most significant feature!

Dorian: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A
Phrygian: A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A
Aeolian: (good news -- just another name for the natural minor)

If you are planning to work on minor scales, you may want to determine which would be most useful for the type of music that you play. Do those first.

Don't let the apparent complexity of all of this get you down. Try to get a handle on the most useful scale (to you) and then tackle another one later.

[reeljigs]

Wow Jim, thanks. It will take a few readings of this to even begin to digest it. I wish I had your brain!

[mandonewbie]

Pig Farmer......A good book that touches on all of the things posted above is: "Fretboard Roadmaps For Mandolin"...It goes into the basic theory, has all the major scales with exercises, and a CD....It's only about 12 bucks and well worth it.....Use it as a practice and learning guide, and you will move along pretty quickly.....Good Luck to ya!

[lightningbug]

I read this thread with great interest. I have been playing guitar for a long time with varying degrees of enthusiasm. The mandolin has stoked my musical fire and I am really trying to be disciplined in my study of it. I find this instrument to be totally logical, especially when compared to the guitar, and that makes me think that I can master it.

My question is how to get to the professional quality of play that so many of you have already attained. I know that perfect practice makes perfect.

I wish to be able to perform (improvise and execute) a solo on a song I've never heard before. What type of practice would be the most beneficial? I have been practicing my scales and can run these scales pretty fast. It doesn't seem to help me compose very interesting solo's however. How do you get to this level?

In a nutshell, what are the kinds of things that I should be practicing on a daily basis?

[fatt-dad]

I've been told that arpeggios, scales, AND playing with others are all required. Whether I get there are not is another story, but nobody on the front porch cares otherwise.

fatt-dad

[JimD]

I wish to be able to perform (improvise and execute) a solo on a song I've never heard before. #What type of practice would be the most beneficial? #I have been practicing my scales and can run these scales pretty fast. #It doesn't seem to help me compose very interesting solo's however. How do you get to this level?
In a nutshell, what are the kinds of things that I should be practicing on a daily basis?


Frankly, I find arpeggios to be more useful than scales in improvising. That could be quite a topic... I haven't consciously thought about scales while improvising for probably a decade. It does take time (and quite a bit of effort) to get to that point.

I find that the least interesting solos are those that seem to be directionless. Don't go for the dazzle--try to create something that has a sense of flow to it. This isn't easy to talk about without demonstrating.

Try this:

Improvise over a drone pitch (tonic pitch of the scale for now) using a scale. Try to be as creative as possible varying the rhythm, inflection etc. Follow the old Zen dictum: (paraphrased) If something is boring for five minutes, do it for thirty. Nothing sparks the creativity like boring oneself half to death...

This should loosen you up a bit melodically. Remember that many of the world's musics are accompanied by drones. Listen to some Indian music--perhaps mandolinist, U Shrinivas.

Another very basic idea that will get you started making melodies. Improvise a short melody (short!!!) that ends on anything but the tonic. Repeat that phrase (this is why I said short--you need to remember it). This time end on the tonic. This will train you to make melodies that have a kind of formal logic behind them.

Listen to almost any music and you will here this type of structure and variants of it. #Anything--blues, Beethoven, children's songs...

There are other little formulae like this but get comfortable with this one first.

You should make dozens to hundreds of these little two phrase melodies. Several a day at least. If something is boring...

One last thought--You say that you want to play solos on songs that you haven't heard before. That may be part of the problem. It is always easier to take the creative leap creative when you have a solid foothold on the jumping off point.

[lightningbug]

Thank you Jim. That is some of the best advise I've seen posted here. I used to play the drone thing while improvising blues on my guitar. I think it must work because blues on the guitar is the only genre I feel very comfortable improvising on.

I guess I just need more practice boring myself (apologies in advance to my wife).