holding the pick by theory or by what works?

[astroboy]

I've just been playing mandolin for a few weeks ... and am wondering whether I'm going correctly by feel or developing a bad habit in how I hold the pick ...

I've seen the Folk of the Woods (Mickey Cochran), Mike Marshall, and the Greg Horne instructional DVDs and they pretty much say the same thing: curl the right hand, balance the pick on the first joint of the index finger, hold with the thumb from above so the point of the pick is at a 90 degree angle to the line of the thumb.

The problems with this grip are: 1) the pick doesn't quite extend far enough to the strings, so I feel I have to bend my wrist toward the instrument or angle the neck away from me to expose the strings to the pick 2) I feel like I'm using too much forearm when I sound the notes, and have little sensitivity for dynamic loudness/softness on individual notes and can't flex/incline the the pick when strumming chords or different attack angles (as discussed by Mike Marshall).

Instead, I keep catching myself holding the pick with 3 fingers: thumb on top, backed by bent (but not curved under) index and middle fingers, with my wrist pretty straight and loose (perhaps a a slight downward angle when not on the G or D strings). Since I'm using a triangular Jazzmando plectrum, there's enough pick to the left and right so that the index and middle fingers rest behind/near the underside left and right points of the triangle, with the "bottom" point square to the strings. Haven't dropped the pick so far. :) This way of holding the pick obviously extends the point further from my palm toward the strings and I get to use more wrist up/down/rotation than the mostly lifting/dropping/rotating my forearm the previously described (recommended) position did, and of course I can reduce the angle when strumming instead of "raking" across the strings with the pick completely perpendicular. Crosspicking seems to be easier as well, as it's easier to hop strings with more wrist involved and less forearm. I can easily hold the pick firmly enough for tremolo without clamping down and freezing the hand/arm motion, and 1/8 note up/down strokes seem more natural.

So long term players: am I doing the right thing -- what seems most effective given my particular arm/wrist/etc. proportions, musculature , and flexibility -- or am I simply developing a bad habit that I will need to break later as some limitation of this pick holding technique shows up, and might as well work through the discomfort/awkwardness of the recommended pick holding technique from the outset?

If the latter (it's a bad habit), what sort of limitation will I likely run into?

Thank for any insight.

[Rob Gerety]

Well, you will get people who will advise to do your own thing - whatever feels right. But I am not in that camp. My view is that it is good to listen to the real experts and try to develop techniques that are proven to work in the long haul. My feeling is that the pick hold you are using is troublesome down the road when you are strumming hard and fast and when you are trying to build speed with your melody playing. Just my opinion. I did what you are doing and then had to unlearn it and develop the pick holding technique that is generally taught by most professional teachers. Now I find I can play a lot better. My problem was that the pick would rotate in my fingers as I played to the point that in the middle of a tune I would have to make big adjustments and I would lose the groove.

The "problems" that you point out will fade with time and effort and you will end up with a good solid technique that will sustain you for the long haul.

[Mike Bunting]

You've been playing for a couple of weeks, give it time.

[Fretbear]

Jimmy Gaudreau holds his pick exactly like that, and it seems to work fine for him....

[Erik Gran]

The way you hold the pick is not theory in my book, it's a practical skill, a small detail (but important) in the practical, physical task of making music with your own hands. You need a pick grip that is secure, yet loose and relaxed, to minimize tension in your body, also that allows you to control the attack on the strings. To me the grip between the curled index finger and thumb gives the best overall result, it allows me to easily control the picks attack angle on the courses easily and play with fairly little tip exposed, which gives a more stable grip with minimal force and tension.

Learning to play involves effort and patience, and it's not always a good thing to avoid initial discomfort and choose the easy way out. Good basic technique pays off, and it's easier to learn good techique in the first place, than unlearn bad later ... ;) :mandosmiley:

[Coffeecup]

This is probably a good example of why some face-to-face tuition with a music teacher is valuable. You can see what the players on a DVD are doing but they can't see you and give you feedback. This doesn't mean that you have to have a lesson every week. I did that while learning guitar and found that I didn't have enough practice time so wasted the teacher's and my own time a bit. Now, with the mandolin, a lesson every three or four weeks seems to be working for me.

[AlanN]

Wayne Benson uses a similar grip, thumb and index, supported by middle finger, holds the pick very loosely. He burns.

[Martin Jonas]

While there are both two-finger and three-finger pick grips that work, the grip you as a beginner come up with isn't likely to be the optimum. Better to stick to something orthodox first, and you experiment with variations later once you have a sound technical foundation.

Some comments on your original post: There's nothing wrong with angling the neck slightly away from you -- indeed trying to keep the neck parallel to your body is likely to lead to a tense posture in your right arm. There's also nothing wrong with playing with a slight arch to your wrist. The operational word here in both instances is "slight". The most important thing about posture is that you have to be relaxed and comfortable. If any of your muscles are tense it will hurt your tone, and may damage your health if you keep it up for a long time. This also applies to your pick grip: looseness is the be all and end all of it. The pick should feel as if it was just about to drop from your fingers. Do not pinch it, let it pivot freely between your fingertips.

When I was a beginner, I found the first few minutes of the Chris Thile DVD on Homespun invaluable -- he goes into great detail on pick grip. Just don't sit how he does in the video; I'll never know how he didn't put himself in hospital.

[Bertram Henze]

I am with Martin here about neck angle - the neck pointing 45 degrees out like a gun makes for a relaxed body posture (you are not supposed to look at your fretting hand anyway) and conveniently turns the mandolin towards your picking hand.

[tree]

Wayne Benson uses a similar grip, thumb and index, supported by middle finger, holds the pick very loosely. He burns.

Indeed he does - but that IS a somewhat unconventional grip. More important to note is the amount of time Wayne has put into his playing - I'm sure he got his first 10,000 hours logged (the so called "world class" threshold) before most, and may have doubled that (probably more) by now. The OP'er has been playing "for a few weeks".

I played guitar for 35 years before getting serious about the mandolin, and gripped the pick like my hero, Eric Clapton (between the pads of the thumb and index finger). I planted my pinky and used a lot of short, precise upstrokes, which worked great on electric but when I tried flatpicking, the pick would either rotate in my grip or go flying across the room.

I finally bit the bullet and made myself learn to use the "proper" grip described by the OP - I think somebody called it "the power grip". It took a miserable 6 weeks (12 - 15 hours, at my rate) for me to even begin to feel comfortable with it, and a year to become truly comfortable with it. Fortunately I was also working learning a different instrument (mandolin), I'm sure that helped get me through. I'm really glad I had the discipline to work through it - it has improved my playing, both rhythm and solo.

If I had to do it from the beginning, I would recommend learning the "proper" grip to someone who hasn't been playing very long. For some bonehead who has 35 years of doing it "wrong" (like me), I'd say go with what works for you.

[Steve Ostrander]

Interesting post. I'm in the same boat. After playing guitar for almost 40 years, it's hard to unlearn habits. I won't call it a bad habit, 'cuz for flatpicking guitar, it was the right grip. But it feels so alien to me.

[Denny Gies]

Do what works for you. If you find that you are not progressing to your satisfaction, make the necessary changes.

[bgjunkie]

For me the change in pick shape helped me learn the "preferred" way of holding a pick. The standard teardrop shapped pick kept moving in my hand to the point is messed up my playing. I moved to a triangle shaped pick (Dunlop Ultex - love'em) which gave me more surface area to hold without having to increase pressure. Now days I can play with either pick, but still prefer the triangle pick.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I wasn't a pick user until i came to Mandolin,then i had to learn from scratch. Chris Thile's advice on his DVD (the first i bought) was helpful. I hold the pick between the 'pads' on my first finger & my thumb,that way i can hold it as loose as i need to,to be able to pick the way i do. I suppose when push comes to shove,it's whatever works for you. Like Mike Marshall's YouTube clip advice on how to play Mandolin sat down - he's obvioulsy never had severe back pain & Sciatica,
Ivan

[bonny]

I was fooling around with this three finger grip this morning and while I've never played that way I found it fairly usable. The main difference seemed to be less fine dexterity in the finger motion but more power. I can also see how this technique would be appealing as the pick slipped less and required less adjustment. Guitar great Steve Morse plays this way and I can't see any reason not to if it's what feels right.

That said I'd keep an open mind and try to play different ways. A really good studio bassist told me something fifteen years ago that didn't make sense to me then for the bass but recently I've taken to using her closed hand advice and it's improved my mandolin picking....and I'm doing it more on the bass now too.

[mandroid]

Going back to OP's original 2nd paragraph ,
keep correcting yourself going back to what is given as the better technique until it feels natural.

Maybe like a Herco thumb-flatpick which is a flatpick with a loop formed in it to stay on your thumb , will help , at least it wont slip around so much.
I use one when from over-tight-gripping , my tightly curled up index finger feels overuse stressed.

with the loosely closed fist right hand the transition from single noting to tremolo, and back seems more manageable.

I seem to expose a minimal amount of my pick , typically those Dawg like ones or the Wankel triangle ones.

[Mike Bunting]

To go back to the original question as regards "do what works", how is a person who has only been learning to play for two weeks, going to know what works? Of course the grip that his books suggest are going to be difficult, he is just beginning after all. Everything is probably difficult.

[astroboy]

To go back to the original question as regards "do what works", how is a person who has only been learning to play for two weeks, going to know what works? Of course the grip that his books suggest are going to be difficult, he is just beginning after all. Everything is probably difficult.

Oh no, buzzing the G string courses on the upstrokes is a piece of pie. Maybe cake. :)

Seriously, thanks for all the tips, I will keep slogging through the recommended pick grip at least through December, and reconsider then.

Thanks, all.

[Jim MacDaniel]

...Maybe like a Herco thumb-flatpick which is a flatpick with a loop formed in it to stay on your thumb , will help , at least it wont slip around so much...

Good idea -- using one (on a temporary basis) could help one get used to the feel of the more orthodox or "proper" pick grip the OP described in his second paragraph. Then once it feels natural, move back to a conventional pick.

[OldSausage]

The standard thing may not work for you, but you should be sure you have tested it really thoroughly before you decide to go your own way. There is nothing this advice doesn't apply to.

[ralph johansson]

to the OP: Theory summarizes practice, i.e., what has proved to work over the centuries.


And you should hold your mandolin at an angle from your body.

[Adam Tracksler]

I took some webcam lessons from Mike Compton, pick holding was the first thing we worked on. It changed my playing for the better. Its worth it just to do one lesson with him for this.

[JonZ]

Estimate the odds of the following and then make your own decision...
What are the odds that your physiology is substantially different from the acknowledged masters of the mandolin, justifying modification of proven technique?
If there is not a substantial difference in you physiology, what are the odds that your unique style will be an improvement?

[thejamdolinplayer]

When I first started playing mandolin I had bought the Chris Thile Instructional video, and in the video he talks about laying the pick on the pad of your index finger and clamping your thumb down on the pick with a loose grip. Being a guitar player previously this felt very weird so I decided I would not try it...

Now a 1 1/2 yrs later, I am trying to go back to this pick grip, for I am realizing I can get a much better tone this way, but perhaps not as much volume. Use what works best for you, but also be open to other peoples suggestions.

[fishtownmike]

I think it's what feels comfortable to you that matters but i do feel the pick needs to strike the string totally parallel with each other. Especially if you use a round tip pick.

[ralph johansson]

When I first started playing mandolin I had bought the Chris Thile Instructional video, and in the video he talks about laying the pick on the pad of your index finger and clamping your thumb down on the pick with a loose grip. Being a guitar player previously this felt very weird so I decided I would not try it...

Now a 1 1/2 yrs later, I am trying to go back to this pick grip, for I am realizing I can get a much better tone this way, but perhaps not as much volume. Use what works best for you, but also be open to other peoples suggestions.


That's odd. I hold the pick the same way on guitar and mandolin, and always have.

Returning to the topic, perhaps the OP should look at his right hand technique as a whole. The natural pick grip (because that's what it is) may feel awkward if your right hand or forearm position is less than optimal. Again, refer to the Marshall video.

[thejamdolinplayer]

Again, refer to the Marshall video.

This is not on topic, but since you mentioned it. I see alot of people on here referring to the Mike Marshall videos, are these videos worth buying? I heard its not as much as heres how you play a lick but position and technique.

[Charley wild]

Like Ralph I pick both guitar and mandolin exactly alike. I can't see any reason why one wouldn't. As far as the two finger versus one finger grip goes, I have known several very good players, guitar and mandolin, over the years who used the two finger grip. This is another case "conventional wisdom" being the so-called right way. If the Op feels comfortable using two fingers instead of one I don't see it as he's headed down the road to doom.

[thejamdolinplayer]

I guess what I was referring to as in "different" was the fact that on guitar I did tend to open my fingers and on mandolin I try to keep my fingers curled. after the past 2 weeks of working on my right-hand and pick hold, i do now hold my pick the same on both instruments...

[ralph johansson]

This is not on topic, but since you mentioned it. I see alot of people on here referring to the Mike Marshall videos, are these videos worth buying? I heard its not as much as heres how you play a lick but position and technique.

If you google

marshall site:daddario.com

you will find the quick tips video. It's short and says it all.

[Josh Kaplan]

After reading the OP, I realized that although I thought I was holding the pick in the "recommended" way, I had a tendency to extend my index finger instead of curling it. Since then I have made an effort of keep it curled, and although it felt awkward at first, I like it better now and feel like I can play faster and more rhythmically because I am using my wrist more. I agree that although there are many ways to do this and different techniques will work better for different people, you can't always trust what feels best when you are beginning.

Josh