Gibson History, serial numbers, FON's and such

[Darryl Wolfe]

I posted this on Loar Picture of the day, but have decided it needs a new home. I'm not sure how much interest we will have in this. Hopefully this will provide a place to collect alot of information that is scattered across numerous threads

____________repost

I encourage all Loar and Gibson affecionatos to fully read this book by Walter Carter (Gibson - 100 Years). I have owned the book since it came out in the early 90's, however there were numerous chapters that I had only sped read or "I'm just looking at the pictures Mom"

Of particular interest are the numerous tales of "Board Room Wars" along with excerpts from minutes of meetings and such. We on this thread have discussed many things about Gibson and the Loar era, but, we have not fully explored the meaning of some of the facts presented in this book.

I will expand on this later as I assimilate my thoughts but here are a few pointers that come to mind:

Board meetings appear to be held on Monday about once a month or there abouts - they seem to coincide with many of the dates Loars were signed on.

L. A. Williams, a Loar associate left Gibson in a furor at the end of '23. Others left before the end of '24, with Loar essentially being the last of the old regime. Loar was more involved with the company than thought, he signed paycheck and did a number of things that imply board member/stockholder

Harry Ferry entered the equation in later '23 and turned the company around to make a profit in '24

Some of his goals were to a) cut the number of models and to B) change from teacher/agent agreements to Music store/dealership agreements.

The cut in production experienced in 1925 was so great that it could not have been from a shift in interest from mandolins to guitars and banjos and the economy simply was not that up and down. Production dipped 60-70%, immediately meaning that they overbuilt and spent the next several years selling 1924 era new instruments. They were building 4-5000 instuments a year and then built about 1200-1400 for the new 3-4 years. Impossible. This is why 1925 instruments may not even be 1925's at this juncture. We note how so many things changed immediately, but this may not now be true. I believe they spent several years finishing instrument started in 1923 and early 24 on an as needed as sold basis (which was one of Harry Ferry's initiatives also)

Some of this seems to explain how Eugene Claycomb special ordered a "red" F5 in mid 1926 and received a red '24 Fern Loar.

More to come

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK. This one is going to be a little tough to explain. Dan and I have been discussing this. We really do not know the exact date for Catalog N, but it appears to be very late 23. It introduces the F5 for the first time. It also introduces the A2Z and an L2 blonde top guitar with a black style line in the top.

Now here are some of the things we see by looking through the mandolin archive

There is no such thing as a black faced snakehead A2. The two listed are not A2's

Brown face snakehead A2's stopped mid to late 23 and A2Z's started. Last brown face snake A2 numbers are 739xx with a couple of 74xxx stragglers that likely have the same FON

I think the "Z" was simply to differentiate between the A2's that met the old description and the A2's that met the new catalog description
Straight A's became black faced instruments

The actual number for A2Z's and snakehead A4's during the entire 23, 24 and 25 period is really extremely low and limited to 150 each or even less.

True snakehead A2's are limited also. There only seems to be two batches: 733xx and 739xx

There are no A2's of any kind after they sold the run of A2Z's and A4's dissapear as if they were available if someone ordered one after about late 25 early 26


This fits the mission Mr. Ferry outlined in his board meeting in later 23

[Darryl Wolfe]

As Dan implied in his post on the LOPD thread. We may be learning something new here. There is alway new info to be digested and new theories to go with it. Here is more evidence. Below are my

1925 A4 82619 FON 8932
1925 A2 marked A 81546 FON 8510

These both have this oddball pretty "The Gibson" logo not seen on any true 1923 and 1924 instruments. Both have the new lacquer finish. Both have modern worm over tuners. The sunburst on the A4 is brighter and less hand done looking, and the FON's are miles from anything we see with a Loar label on it. These were built for need, not part of an overbuilt stock of instruments awaiting an order. With this in mind, they may not be 1925 instruments. They may have spent the next year and a half finishing up alll those others and developing faster drying finishes and other things

[fatt-dad]

My old Gibson guitar has the number 9511 on the heel block. HERE (http://home.comcast.net/~fatt-dad/l-00.html) is a little web page on my old Gibson. So, maybe 9511 is a 1929 item?

I never quite understood these numbers though. It's not quite like a serial number, eh?

f-d

[f5loar]

Jim Mills goes into details in his new prewar flathead banjo book about why the banjos did not have serial no. only FON and there seems to be no connection to actual dates for those FON. He was able to put together some speculative dates from actual dated receipts. I would think mandolins would fall into same sequence of FON meaning less then we first thought. As far as dating those 20's catalogs in those days printing shops were not plentiful and there was a long lag time from time of order to delivery date since the press had to be set up pretty much manually with lead type offset presses. So if they came up with the stuff in early 23 by the time it was printed and into the hands of the customer it would be 6 months later. Things moved slower back then.

[Tom Sanderson]

"I encourage all Loar and Gibson affecionatos to fully read this book by Walter Carter."


Amazon had 5 used copies, I ordered 1, so 4 still available.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Are we talking about MANDOLIN-family FON and serial-numbers OLNY or do GUITAR and/or BANJO FON and serial-numbers fit in somewhere???

I was under the impression that guitar FON and serial numbers were a different thing than mandolin family FON and serial numbers.

Has anyone got specifics?

[Darryl Wolfe]

They are one and the same. Here is a small slice

78604 11147A A4
78660 11147a A4
78751 8024 A
78775 8078 F4
78907 8089 A
78916 8095 A
78931 8905 A
78965 11919 A2Z
78974 11002 A2Z
78977 11029 A2Z
79163 8094 A
79224 11999 A
79268 8097 F4
79285 8092 Ajr
79386 8122 A
79439 8153 Ajr
79607 11995 A2Z
79716 8229 A
79791 8229 A
79792 8190 Ajr
79806 8190 Ajr
79835 11985 F5
79841 11142A O
79844 11142A O
79845 11999 A2Z
79860 1198x A2Z
79914 8284 A
80092 11345 K2
80107 8356 H1
80270 8405 Ajr
80286 8405 Ajr
80319 8355 F2
80377 8355 F2
80434 8430 A
80485 8430 A
80515 11963 A2Z
80529 8230 F4
80570 8350 L5
80624 8123 A4
80782 11985 F5
80849 8559 Ajr

[Darryl Wolfe]

I can almost see two old thick carbon paper order books with a number in the upper right corner. The five digit one got old and ran out and they continued with the other one

[fatt-dad]

Darryl, there's some dude at the Vintage area of the UMGF that has done research on these FONs, connecting to years and such. Maybe his name is John Thomas? I know you are a member, so you may send him a PM and see if he has something to share?

f-d

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks..yes it is John. I do not go there much as somebody in our IS Dept has filtered yuku out

[Charles Johnson]

Hi Darryl,
Near as I can tell the serial number on this A2 snakehead is 72736 and the FON is 11836. It all looks original to me.

Charles

http://vintagemandolin.com/images/23gibsona2_72736_fon11836/front.jpg

http://vintagemandolin.com/images/23gibsona2_72736_fon11836/back.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

Charles, you may have misunderstood my post. Essentially the early brown snakehead A2's (like yours) are the only snake A2's produced. These are the 72xxx and 73xxx batches. There appear to be no black ones at all and anything after the 73xxx batch is a blonde A2z

[Martin Jonas]

There is no such thing as a black faced snakehead A2. The two listed are not A2's


Darryl,

You may want to double-check this with Jim Garber. Jim has posted a photo of what he calls his "23 A2" in this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30583) thread (post #9), and it's certainly a blackface snakehead, so the only question is whether it's really an A2. Jim normally gets these things right.

Martin

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Martin...It sure looks like an A2 Maybe he will chime in. There are none in the archive listing. Here is the rub though. I have a mandolin exactly like that. It looks like a blackface A2, but is marked "A" apparently because the A2 had been discontinued at that point. So technically there would be no black A2's but there are some straight A's with binding and inlayed pearl script marked A. The top on Jims mando looks a bit suspicious too

[Darryl Wolfe]

Jim Garber responded back

"Hi Darryl:
No, My blackface is not marked A2. I can see only an "A". I always thought that was strange"

[Links]

Darryl:

Since everyone is mentioning other folks that can help with FON's, etc., I'll mention that Joe Spann on the Banjo Hangout apparently has gathered a lot of information based on when certain instruments were shipped, certain suppliers for Gibson,timelines, worker profiles, etc. I don't know if he has also gathered info. (even inadvertantly) about mandolins, but you might give him a shout and see if there is any information that may help.

PS: Just finished a project at Houndslake CC - didn't get a contact and meet you, but will contact you in the future when I get back to Aiken!

[Darryl Wolfe]

PS: Just finished a project at Houndslake CC - didn't get a contact and meet you, but will contact you in the future when I get back to Aiken![/QUOTE]

OHH...did you do the new traps?

[Charles Johnson]

Darryl,
I think you are correct. I have had a number of black snakeheads with A2Z features - top and back binding, bound fingerboard, wide white soundhole rosette, and inlaid pearl logos. I think they were all labeled as "A" and all dated 1924.

Note also I have had (in fact currently have) blacktop snakeheads with top binding only, unbound fingerboard, wide white rosette, and painted logo. These are also labeled "A", and date from 1924 and 1925.

To sum up, looks like blacktop snakeheads in 1924 could have either set of features and still be labeled as an "A".

Charles

[Charles Johnson]

Darryl,
Just to confuse the issue further, I have a blonde top snakehead serial number 78968 FON 11919 that is clearly labeled A2-. Its not just the bottom of the "z" - its a dash. In all other aspects its an A2Z, although it does have silver plated tuners with pearl buttons:

http://vintagemandolin.com/images/personal1924gibsona2-fon11919/labela2-small.JPG

Charles

PS - Big pic here: http://vintagemandolin.com/images/personal1924gibsona2-fon11919/labela2-.JPG

PPS - Dan I will send pics. This one is not in the archive.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Charles..an A2Z I had years ago was like that too. A2 followed by what appeared to be an equal sign

[danb]

I think the = sign is actually a dash/under-inked stamp. We chatted about this once before, but the images I have of labels show a thick dash which would look like an = if only the edges stamped cleanly

[Links]

PS: Just finished a project at Houndslake CC - didn't get a contact and meet you, but will contact you in the future when I get back to Aiken!

OHH...did you do the new traps?[/QUOTE]

Yep! Had a lot of fun working there. Their "teaching pro" is one of my best and oldest friends in golf. (The entire course is really starting to be in good condition - new superintendent!)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is a copy of a Gibson invoice dated June 1933 showing that F5 mandolin 89516 was delivered. We universally refer to the 89xxx mandolins as 1929. This is just another shred of evidence that the thick lacquer finish on some "1929" mandolins is really 1933-34 and that 89xxx just may be 1933-34

[Links]

Darryl:

You may have already seen this, but if not thought you might find it interesting!

http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/160645

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Links..I will post that here for record keeping. This is fully consistent with the contentions I have been making lately

______________

Some of the pre-World War II Gibson banjo manufacturing dates that we commonly accept are incorrect.

Surviving pre-war Gibson factory records do not contain detailed and specific information about production dates for individual instruments. It is possible that Gibson never kept this data in the way that C.F. Martin and other manufacturers did. However, by combining other contemporary external source material and the surviving original Gibson factory records we are now in a position to make some badly needed adjustments to our Gibson banjo manufacturing chronology.

One of the first people to attempt the compilation of a pre-war Gibson manufacturing date system was Mr. Davis Kennedy. In a letter published by Bluegrass Unlimited magazine in March 1969, Mr. Kennedy laid out the first important information that would be used for years in assigning production dates for Gibson banjos. Davis Kennedy worked at Gibson as the Supervisor of the Custom Department from 1965 through 1968 and collected his data firsthand from the Gibson factory employees during that period. Roger Siminoff began building on that early data when Pickin’ Magazine published his Gibson Banjo “Serial Number” list in the 1970's. Vintage instrument dealers like George Gruhn, John Bernunzio, Stan Werbin, Stan Jay and legions of private individuals followed the example of these earliest pioneers and collected their own lists of Gibson numbers. These materials first became widely available in the 1990's when Tom Biggs placed a large collection of Gibson information on his Internet website.

As the data began to mount, cracks began to appear in the accepted dates. Tom Biggs originally voiced his concerns to me on this topic over 15 years ago. Other collectors began to see the problems as well, especially those who collected Gibson guitars and mandolins. The system used by the banjo enthusiasts simply did not square with information collected by the guitars and mandolin players. The situation worsened as original sales receipts surfaced, more catalogs were reprinted and a few nearly complete collections of Mastertone Magazine were complied. In his recent book even Jim Mills points out a few of the problems with our accepted chronology.

In retrospect part of the problem is clear. No single collector or dealer had enough data from which to draw valid conclusions. Gibson built over a hundred thousand instruments before World War II and a list containing 200 numbers or even 2,000 numbers is simply not enough data. Another problem is that bad information was repeated. In his original 1969 letter, Davis Kennedy stated that the first flat head Mastertones were built in 1932. But immediately afterwards he qualified that statement by writing that “no one knew for sure, but the most popular guess at Gibson was 1932.” Mr. Kennedy never intended that 1932 be taken as an absolute. But the information was repeated over and over again for years and unfortunately it was incorrect.

The confusing and inconsistent Gibson “system” of serial numbers and factory order numbers adds to the problem. Each batch of instruments built by Gibson during the pre-World War II period had a “factory order number.” This number was used by the accounting department to track the actual costs of manufacturing the instruments. The price of raw materials, finished sub-assembly parts and labor used in the production of each particular batch of instruments were tracked and assigned to that factory order number. High quality instruments like L-5 guitars and F-5 mandolins also received an actual serial number upon completion. Other mid-line instruments like banjos and lower quality guitars simply retained their factory order number with the addition of a bin number instead. Lower quality instruments often got no identifying numbers at all, even though they originally had a factory order number just like everything else.

In a 1970 interview former Gibson employee Wilbur Marker stated that the factory order numbers originated in the weekly production meetings. The senior staff gathered together each week and decided what would be produced in the near future. According to Wilbur Marker, a pre-printed and serially number form was used to initiate a production run. The number on this form became the factory order number. External evidence today shows that Gibson had been using the factory order number system as early as the 1910's and perhaps before that. Indeed, by the time the first Mastertone banjos rolled off the production line in April 1925 the factory order numbers were already in the 8,000 range.

It would also be naive to assume that the factory order numbers were always used in sequential order. Existing evidence shows this is simply not so. Some instruments took longer to sell, some took longer to produce. What began as a pile of pre-printed forms with sequential numbers was not always exactly in numerical order at the end of the production line. For the period from 1925 through 1930 they are nearly sequential, but from 1931 onwards chaos was the order of the day. In my examination of the 1935 shipping ledger sometimes I wonder if someone knocked over that pile of pre-printed forms and then just picked them up off the floor without returning them to sequential order.

The shipping ledgers also show another important fact. After the stock market crash of October 1929 Gibson had extreme difficulty selling plectrum (PB), regular (RB) and any gold plated banjos. One All-American tenor (9747-4) was shipped and returned nine times. By 1937 it is described as being “shop worn.” The final Mastertone banjo shipped prior to World War II was a style 6 which had been sitting around the factory since 1928. I have interviewed a Gibson employee who worked there in the period 1938-1940. He remembers seeing hundreds of dusty older instruments sitting around in the famous rolling racks. Some of them in a state of partial disassembly. The shipping ledgers themselves show that Gibson had a considerable back stock of instruments. These often appear in the ledger with the notation “TB-G old style” or simply “L-5 old.”

It is not difficult at all for me to believe that the Earl Scruggs RB-Granada was assembled in the first quarter of 1930, but not shipped until 1934. The shipping ledgers show that type of thing happened with regularity. Research on my book continues on a daily basis. Hopefully, I will be able to share a revised and more accurate Gibson banjo production chronology with everyone at a near date.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Joe Spann on 10/21/2009 08:21:35

[Links]

Darryl:

Sometime when you get a chance you might want to contact Joe and see what he might have regarding mandolins. Apparently, he hs obtained some of the shipping records that were probably thrown in a dumpster when Gibson was moving their factory. I know Greg Rich and maybe some others got into the dumpster at some point during this period and "salvaged" quite a few of the old blueprints and other information on banjos. I can't imagine that they would have left mandolin information in the dumpster if it had been in there.

Joe has also interviewed many of the old workers and/or their children to get some feel for what it was like working in the factory before and after the war.

[Darryl Wolfe]

By absolute pure coincidence, Joe contacted me yesterday. And, yes I have seen some of those blueprints in possession of another noted banjo expert

[Darryl Wolfe]

Bump up for Bernie

[Bernie Daniel]

Much appreciated! Thanks.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Let's pick up the A4 virzi asterisk thing here

[Darryl Wolfe]

Now, according to Bill Van...his instrument is an Ajr with the asterisk. Ajr's also have a different label. I am a bit confused. Is there another mando with the red asterisk making three, and what is it?

[Bill Van Liere]

Darryl, I know of three:

77428
77438 and
77454 the Jr.

BVL

[mrmando]

With SNs that close together, the asterisks may have something to do with a particular batch of instruments, irrespective of which model they are or whether they have a Virzi. 77428 is a black snakehead A (not an A4) and has no Virzi.

There are 2 other Virzi A4 snakes in this SN range, but the Archive doesn't have photos, so we don't know if they have asterisks or not.

On Dec. 1, 1924, Loar signed labels for instruments in the 773xx-804xx range, so we can date this small group of instruments at the beginning of the end of the Loar period.

Coincidentally, Santa is bringing me 78318 next week. I'll look for an asterisk, although I really don't expect to see one.

[mandotool]

Red Asterisk...yet another possible and perhaps unknowable explanation...
the sides are not matched on #77438..
It has flame on the treble side and birdseye on the bass side..

Also ..the top has a more plank type widegrain...not 1/4 sawn....

[slim_subtle]

I have #79567 here...It's also snakehead A-4 and looks almost identical to the ebay one. It too has a Virzi, and also has the coffee-colored tuner buttons...but no red asterisk.

[Rob Gerety]

The mystery of the red asterisk.

[Goodin]

Were the 'coffee' colored tuner buttons actually colored like that at the factory or is that a discoloration that happened over time (mandolin being exposed to too many cigarettes, dunked in coffee too many times, etc.)?

[atetone]

I have heard those tuner buttons referred to as "butterscotch".
They came like that, it is not discoloration.
I looked into it on the Archives one time and discovered that although they are somewhat rare they seemed to be used on some A4 and F4 models.
I don't remember seeing them on any other models.
I had a 1924 A4 Snakehead with them on it.
They are very nice.

[Goodin]

As to the red asterisk...I posted this comment in the 1924 A4 Snake thread in the Ebay section:

Perhaps the marks we're added later...maybe a dealer liked to mark all the mandolins that passed through the store with a red asterisk? Just a thought. It seems if the asterisks were added at the factory during the build they would use pencil like the rest of the serial #.

[mandotool]

Yes, that one occured to me too...
The seller of 77438 told me that he bought it
from the original owners son...
So,No stopovers in any shops likely for this one....at least for resale..
nor is there any evidence of any repairs for that matter..

Something that may help clear this up and a whole pile of other
questions..
Would be to have a more mandolins documented in the Mandolin Archive....
I've recently been asking some of my local shops to send in the photos and info on their prewar Gibson mandolins to the archive...
Better representation in the Archive is pretty much a win win for all concerned..yes?

[Darryl Wolfe]

With Mr. Spann's book forthcoming, this would be a good place to pick up on the discussion. This is where our accepted dating of mandolin construction starts to align with Joe Spann's dates or at least it comes into question. We simply did not have enough evidence to support it

[mrmando]

Hey ... I had occasion to look over a vintage F4 that was missing its endpin. The endpin hole gives one a nice view of the neck block. (You can also get a good look at the transverse brace.) I did not see an FON stamped thereupon. Methought perhaps there was something stamped on the scroll block, way up at the end of the hollow part of the scroll, but I couldn't get enough light up there to be sure. So where does one typically find the FON on an F4?

[Darryl Wolfe]

It should be on the head block. I just took the back off a snake A and found a FON stamped on the back near the tail block. Go figure

[danb]

They almost always show up like this in an oval-holed instrument:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/78751_fon.jpg


http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/68991_fon.jpg