Mandola as first instrument?

[TommyB]

Hi everyone,

I'm an ukulele player who's looking to try a mandolin-family instrument, but I'm thinking of starting with a mandola instead of a mandolin. I'd welcome any advice (pro or con) on this.

My reason for leaning towards the mandola is that this would primarily be an instrument that I would sing along with, and I think the lower voice of the mandola might suit me better. I don't plan to gig; this is just for my personal enjoyment. Also, I don't have any particular style of music in mind.

My hesitation, though, is that there seems to be a lot less information, learning resources and affordable mandolas, as compared to mandolins. As I would be trying to teach myself, I'm wondering if this is a bad idea. Should I instead start off with mandolin, given the relative wealth of learning materials, affordable instruments and even inspiring Youtube videos?

If I do decide to buy a mandola, and assuming that my budget is about $1000 or less, would I be better off waiting for a vintage Gibson that needs a little work (one just closed on eBay for less than $900); something imported like a Michael Kelly; or something like the 2003 Big Muddy that Mandolin Brothers is selling for $670; or something else?

Or should I skip the mandola as a starter altogether and shop for a good mandolin first?

Thanks!!

[catmandu2]

If I do decide to buy a mandola, and assuming that my budget is about $1000 or less, would I be better off waiting for a vintage Gibson that needs a little work (one just closed on eBay for less than $900); something imported like a Michael Kelly; or something like the 2003 Big Muddy that Mandolin Brothers is selling for $670; or something else?

Or should I skip the mandola as a starter altogether and shop for a good mandolin first?

Thanks!!

Welcome to the cafe...mandola is a great instrument. But, I played a MK mandola last week that was superlatively underwhelming -- I would definitely recommend that you avoid one of those. I own a Mid-Missouri (Big Muddy) that is quite nice for the price (and about 10X better sounding than the MK).

[allenhopkins]

I play both mandolin and mandola, as well as octave mandolin and mandocello. Here are some reactions to your questions. Realize they represent just one person's opinion, and others may have a much different take:

1] Mandola does work better for vocal accompaniment than mandolin, due to its lower voice -- IMHO. Octave mandolin, which you haven't mentioned as an option, works even better, since it's nearly in "guitar range," which is what most listeners tend to expect for accompanying the voice.
2] There are probably 500 mandolins for every mandola. As a result, most instructional material is pitched toward mandolin. However the relative tuning of mandola strings is the same as that of mandolin; it's just pitched a fourth lower (or the mandolin's a fifth higher -- same thing). So if you can figure out how to transpose ("what the book says is a G chord on the mandolin, is a C chord on my mandola"), you can use some of the books, DVD's, tabs etc. on your instrument.
3] If you're thinking of vocal accompaniment, I would get an oval-hole instrument, rather than one with f-holes. As a rule (and there are many individual exceptions), the oval-hole instruments have a longer sustain, a more "ringy" sound that works well as a backup for vocals.
4] A "vintage Gibson" in your price range is probably going to need more than "a little work," though you might luck into a cosmetically challenged but structurally OK instrument. The Big Muddy is a good choice for what you're trying to do. Other good choices might be a vintage Flatiron "pancake" like this one, (http://www.elderly.com/items/90U-3557.htm) a Gypsy's Music like this one, (http://gypsysmusic.com/mandola.html)or a Trinity College like this one. (http://www.folkofthewood.com/page1625.htm)
Good luck!

[boatman]

I believe a mandola would be a good choice, especially if travel is a consideration. A cased instrument would be be more manageable size wise compared to an octave mandolin, and the register would be somewhat better than a mandolin for solo accompaniment. I don't think that the learning curve would be any different. You probably won't find a carved top instrument in your price range; Mr Hopkins' point #4 above is good scoop.

[Mandoviol]

I don't see what would be wrong with starting on mandola; a lot of people start with viola as their first instrument, and they're both tuned the same. Although I think that means that the mandola will be in alto-clef, so you'll have to figure out how to transpose to treble (unless you already know how--then no worries). If you'd like to stay in treble, octave mandolin is probably for you (and you can play both OM and regular mandolin if you so desire if you go the OM route--same tuning). Octave mando and mandola are both roughly the same size, by the way (though OM's bigger).

If you get a mandolin, you may find people asking you if it's a uke. That's happened to me a lot.

Happy playing, and welcome to the Cafe!

[mandocrucian]

Mandola will usually be fingered the same as a mandolin (or fiddle or viola) - 2 frets per finger. (diatonic fingering). When you get to the OMs, you'd probably end up using one finger per fret (chromatic fingering). I don't know if that makes any difference in your considerations.


3] If you're thinking of vocal accompaniment, I would get an oval-hole instrument, rather than one with f-holes. As a rule (and there are many individual exceptions), the oval-hole instruments have a longer sustain, a more "ringy" sound that works well as a backup for vocals.

I agree with this. I have an oval hole Flatiron pancake mandola, and also an Weber arch-top oval-hole.

Notable players who have used mandola
Andy Irvine (Planxty)
Terry Woods (The Woods Band)
Peter Rowan

NH

[CES]

I am NOT (yet) a mandola player, but I did pick on a Morgan Monroe oval hole/flat topped mando a couple years ago and was impressed. Solid top, laminate b/s...actually sounded really good and was set up well. I probably would have bought it if I'd had the cash at the time, but, alas, didn't...it may well have been the exception to the rule, though.

That said, if I were buying now, I'd go with some of Alan's suggestions above and probably get a Flatiron if I could find one, (and I mean a real one, not the current imports bearing the same name), Big Muddy, or maybe a Gypsy. I have a Flatiron pancake mando that I really like a lot....great quality and sound for the $.

I use mando to accompany singing a lot, but it's a contrast to my lower voice and not as versatile in that regard as a guitar/OM/mandola are/would be...

Good luck, and let us know what you decide!!

[mandroid]

There are a few variations in scale length of mandolas , H is a gibson designation for their instruments.
its 4/10ths of a Meter, or 15 3/4" that lends itself to 2 frets to a finger melody playing
or at least for my fingers ..

there are longer scale mandolas , so size is still a question.. regular or Grande.

[Woody Turner]

"However the relative tuning of mandola strings is the same as that of mandolin; it's just pitched a fourth lower (or the mandolin's a fifth higher -- same thing)." Somehow the logic here escapes me. The high string of a dola (A) is a fifth below the high string of a mandolin (E), no? If the distance between point X and point Y is "5," isn't the distance between Y and X also "5"? Finger patterns for chords, however, may appear to change by a fourth (descending), depending on how you look at them. For example, a G chord on a mandolin is played in the D position on the mandola.

[BradKlein]

To strike a cautionary note -- I started on mandola... It had belonged to my girlfriend's grandmother who played with a mandolin orchestra in the Bronx. Anyway, I THOUGHT it was a mandolin, and just set in to learning chords and fiddle tunes. I continued to play mandola until the relationship ran its course, even taking a few lessons from Andy Statman, since no one else seemed to want to teach beginning mandola in NYC.

When I finally bought a mandolin, I was astonished how much easier it was to play fiddle tunes. And I was astonished how HARD it was for me to 'transpose' the chords I had learned to an instrument that was a fifth higher. It took me years. (I am a little slow... there... I said it)

Finally, may I suggest that the guitar is a wonderful instrument to accompany singing. Banjo, good. Ukes of all sizes. There's a reason that you don't see many singer songwriters performing solo with a mandola.

[TommyB]

Wow, what a treasure trove of great advice and information. I haven't gone through all the replies yet (been away from the computer), but I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to write. What a great forum and community you've got here. Thanks so much!

[catmandu2]

"However the relative tuning of mandola strings is the same as that of mandolin; it's just pitched a fourth lower (or the mandolin's a fifth higher -- same thing)." Somehow the logic here escapes me. The high string of a dola (A) is a fifth below the high string of a mandolin (E), no? If the distance between point X and point Y is "5," isn't the distance between Y and X also "5"? Finger patterns for chords, however, may appear to change by a fourth (descending), depending on how you look at them. For example, a G chord on a mandolin is played in the D position on the mandola.

He's talking Cycle of 5ths, where such nomenclature as "lower and higher" is relative and not absolute; linear distance between points x and y is a different kind of "math" than what we're using here.

[Woody Turner]

He's talking Cycle of 5ths, where such nomenclature as "lower and higher" is relative and not absolute; linear distance between points x and y is a different kind of "math" than what we're using here.

Good point about the cycle of fifths. To me, though, it still seems inaccurate to say the mandola is tuned a fourth below (the operative relational term here) the mandolin. I have never heard anyone compare mandolin and mandola that way before.

[catmandu2]

Good point about the cycle of fifths. To me, though, it still seems inaccurate to say the mandola is tuned a fourth below (the operative relational term here) the mandolin. I have never heard anyone compare mandolin and mandola that way before.

Ah, I see what you're saying.

[John Flynn]

I will second the earlier suggestion of considering an octave mandolin. Not only are they in a great range for accompanying singing, but if you put a capo on the fifth fret, then voila' (or "viola," if you want to make a bad pun!) and you have what is functionally a mandola. It's like having two instruments in one!

[TommyB]

Thank you all for the responses and the warm welcome. I was hopped up on buying another instrument (do you guys say "MAS"?), but this thread forced me to slow down and think this through. After going through the replies, I'm now thinking that I'll start with a mandolin after all. While I like the sound of the octave mandolin, it's a much larger instrument than I want to start with. And as for the mandola, I don't want to confuse myself with transposing just as I'm getting started. Even if the mandolin doesn't fit my singing voice well, I do love the sound of it. Also, the wealth of learning materials (and affordable instruments) is really appealing to me as I try to learn new fingering patterns and playing techniques. And then, maybe down the road, I can take a second look at mandolas and octave mandolins (uh oh ... time to move all the ukuleles aside!)

Thanks again!!

[mandocrucian]

Even if the mandolin doesn't fit my singing voice well, I do love the sound of it. Also, the wealth of learning materials (and affordable instruments) is really appealing to me as I try to learn new fingering patterns and playing techniq

FYI: There's no law that says you must tune it (mandolin) to GDAE. Tune it down to FCGD if you need to get the instrument a little lower for you to sing in the comforatble "key positions" (i.e., all the G shapes and licks are now actually in F). Or go lower to EBF#C# , which is where Yank Rachell tuned his - of course being a blues guy, E is the people's key. Eb is probably the lowest you can take it, even if you put on slightly thicker strings to compensate, before the sound quality degrades too far.

NH

[TommyB]

More good advice. Thanks, Mandocrucian.

[catmandu2]

What a great forum and community you've got here. Thanks so much!

No kidding, this is the best musical instrument forum that I've been on...but I waste entirely too much time here! :popcorn:

*I have only two complaints: lack of "smiley icon" choices, and insistence on maintaining the name tenor "guitar" forum (as opposed to tenor instruments...guitar, banjo, etc.)

[DerTiefster]

While it doesn't work well for all, there is a comment from 2007 on the "Compulsive Purchase - Flatiron 1N" thread (p.26 or so) about retuning the 17" scale length Flatiron pancake mandola down to Octave Mandolin pitch. It seems workable to me. The poster suggested slightly heavier strings than the pancakes are rated for when tuned to CGDA, and was happy with slightly thicker strings and octave-down GDAE. maybe a little jangly? I'm about to try JM13s and/or FT76s.

[Mandoviol]

...After going through the replies, I'm now thinking that I'll start with a mandolin after all. While I like the sound of the octave mandolin, it's a much larger instrument than I want to start with. .... maybe down the road, I can take a second look at mandolas and octave mandolins (uh oh ... time to move all the ukuleles aside!)

Thanks again!!

You and me both! I'd never really heard the sound of an OM until last week, and I'm now kind of hooked; but I really should learn everything on my mandolin first before I move into new-er territory (not that the tuning is different; it'll just be me making the same mistakes on a bigger instrument as opposed to the one I have!). The mandolin is a great instrument to play, especially if you're used to four strings and a smallish size (and this is why I haven't moved outside of the violin-mando-uke range of instruments).

Have fun looking for your mando; as you said, there is a wealth of instruments out there to choose from, and you will undoubtedly find a mandolin that suits you.

Happy Playing! :mandosmiley:

[man dough nollij]

I think mandolin first is smart, unless you have a line on a free mandola. Then when you want to branch out a little, OM is a natural choice. That's what I did. I was playing around with mandolin when I saw this clip and decided I had to have an OM. I love the sound.

[Mandoviol]

I think mandolin first is smart, unless you have a line on a free mandola. Then when you want to branch out a little, OM is a natural choice. That's what I did. I was playing around with mandolin when I saw this clip and decided I had to have an OM. I love the sound.



You and me both....

Gahh! MAS!!!!!

[Lee]

I took classical violin lessons and learned to sight read notation at a young age. But my brain cheats. When I see the black dot sitting on the the bottom line, I place my left index finger (on a mandolin) at the second fret. My brain doesn't interpret the black dot as an E and then instructs my finger to go where the E is supposed to be. I've been short-circuited to "read" notation purely as a system of mechanical fingering instructions.

Therefore I use mandolin sheet music and play it on mandola exactly the same way so it comes out transposed a fifth lower than it was written. As long as you're not playing with other people, it makes music just fine.

[Lee]

Can anyone tell me where to get sheet music for tunes such as Uldry plays?

[JeffD]

"However the relative tuning of mandola strings is the same as that of mandolin; it's just pitched a fourth lower (or the mandolin's a fifth higher -- same thing)." Somehow the logic here escapes me. The high string of a dola (A) is a fifth below the high string of a mandolin (E), no? If the distance between point X and point Y is "5," isn't the distance between Y and X also "5"? Finger patterns for chords, however, may appear to change by a fourth (descending), depending on how you look at them. For example, a G chord on a mandolin is played in the D position on the mandola.

Its clock math, you know, 45 minutes after is 15 minutes before.

A fifth above a particular note is a fourth below the next octave of that particular note.

[man dough nollij]

Can anyone tell me where to get sheet music for tunes such as Uldry plays?

It says on YT that he wrote that tune. It's fingerpicked, which is a little unusual in the OM world, from what I know. You could probably go on YT and post a comment on the video, asking him about it.