"You can get a degree in playing it wrong"

[Ted Eschliman]

I'm waiting for confirmation from Professor McGann that it's true at Berklee; you can get a degree for "playing mistakes..."



"He kept putting this thing on the end of his (Mile Davis') horn to make it sound LESS like a trumpet. What's wrong with him?"

[Jim MacDaniel]

Love it!

[BlueMt.]

Thanks, Ted. I needed a good chuckle this morning.

[Ken Olmstead]

:)):)):)):cool:

[Pete Martin]

Answers all my Jazz questions :grin::)):mandosmiley:

[Matt DeBlass]

Good Lord, if they gave out degrees for playing things wrong I'd be working on my PhD. by now!:mandosmiley:

[hank]

I think there's a pretty good chance those two have dropped a few cards out of their deck along the way. Duh factor to the square of volume = Major I, IV, V, again and again and again and again and again and :sleepy: and again and :sleepy:

[James P]

"And they've earned a distinguished place in rock history as one of England's loudest bands."

Sad about their first drummer... all their drummers really.

[journeybear]

I have heard some say that more people who have dropped out of Berklee have gone on to greater careers than graduates. But I probably heard that from some of those dropouts ... ;)

[bonny]

I have heard some say that more people who have dropped out of Berklee have gone on to greater careers than graduates. But I probably heard that from some of those dropouts ... ;)

The other side of the coin is that more than one great player who already had a happening career before he went has gone to Berklee. I think a lot of "dropouts" leave when they have what they came for. Since it's rare to be asked for transcripts auditioning for a jazz gig the sheepskin don't mean much to some people.

[John McGann]

"Through the looking glahhss"...

Jazz is still at the core of Berklee, but there is a lot of 'stylistic diversity' going on too; we have players like Sierra Hull, Jake Jolliff, Eric Robertson in the mando zone; you can study all kinds of Latin, Brazilian, Klezmer, Classical, Jazz, Rock, Celtic and other styles.

Joan Jett was once asked to define "out" in a guitar mag- she said "I might play a note that sounds like I stepped on barbed wire with my bare feet. Then, I play another note". She was in the Tap Zone long before Tap hit it big with "Big Bottom"!

Improvisation, true improvisation, means you are willing to make mistakes. Grappelli: "when I make a mistake I make it twice, so zee audience think I mean it!"

See, everyone is a jazz musician in the end- even bands with meticulously worked out non-improvised solos, perfectly well groomed, make mistakes sometimes. :mandosmiley:

Bonny, the sheepskin 'don't mean much' if you can't play, that's for sure. Bandleaders don't care if you went to Berklee or the Jimmy Buffet Institute for Honkies Terminally Stuck On One and Three, if you can't play (or if you CAN for that matter- but maybe this mythical player could have picked up some smarts along the way from a musical education- just sayin'...!)

[John Flynn]

There are plenty of examples of people who have not had formal musical education, but who can still play well. But what about the flip side? The infamous singer Florence Foster Jenkins was just mentioned in another thread and I thought her story was very interesting. She had formal training as a singer, but she could not sing well, yet she still garnered a lot of visibility in the musical community. So are there Florence Foster Jenkins counterparts in the instrumental world? I'm talking about musicians of note who had formal music education and training, but who could not play well.

[John McGann]

I'm talking about musicians of note who had formal music education and training, but who could not play well.

How would they become "musicians of note" if they couldn't really play?

Not sure if William Shatner studied formally, but he'd make the cut if he did, his version of "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" is very heavy, though ;)

There's no guarantee that musical education will give results; not all educational processes are equal, just as not all students are at equal levels of talent/development/drive etc.

The odds are probably in favor of improvement if you practice a lot and have the drive and even get a little edumication...compared to someone who doesn't make a similar effort at improving their skills...whether they are doing the 'book learning' or not...

And always remember, it's not enough to succeed, others must fail! *

* umm, tongue in cheek here.

[Matt DeBlass]

I suppose there are folks who get the technical training, but never quite click as a performer. I've known a few "living room virtuoso" types who don't play out for various reasons, but then, they're not really "of note" except maybe at family reunions.

By the way, I like Grappelli's approach, if you're going to have clams, you might as well throw on the white wine and butter while you're at it.

[John Flynn]

How would they become "musicians of note" if they couldn't really play?...And always remember, it's not enough to succeed, others must fail!
Well, how did Florence Foster Jenkins become a singer of note if she couldn't really sing?

And I don't think it's about looking at failure. There is a positive and inspirational part of the Jenkins story. She followed her dream, no matter what. As she even said, "The may say I didn't sing well, but they can never say I didn't sing!"

If there are Jenkins-like stories in the instrumental community (besides my own, of course, LOL!), I'd like to hear them!

[Tim]

Well, how did Florence Foster Jenkins become a singer of note if she couldn't really sing?


Based completely on a quick google search and a scan of two articles, I'd say that you are stretching the definition of "singer of note". Her friends went to hear her. Her recordings were self financed. As near as I can tell people mostly went to see her for comedic effect, not for being a "singer of note".

[journeybear]

According to wikipedia, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins) "At the age of 76, Jenkins finally yielded to public demand and performed at Carnegie Hall on October 25, 1944. So anticipated was the performance that tickets for the event sold out weeks in advance."

I don't know how Carnegie Hall gets booked, if they have certain standards or if she could have rented the hall herself - which sounds pretty expensive - but apparently there was enough public interest to warrant this, as much as "riveting as a train wreck" seems the apt cliché concerning her performances.

I like this anecdote: After a taxicab crash in 1943 she found she could sing "a higher F than ever before." Instead of a lawsuit against the taxicab company, she sent the driver a box of expensive cigars.

Assuming that's what she said, and assuming that an F is an F is an F, what that really seems to say is that whatever she sang when she was trying to hit that F was, ah, a bit less flat than before. :))

[John McGann]

So far, a list of one "musician of note" who "had formal music education and training, but who could not play well". :popcorn:

[Tim]

Formal education is just a tool to use to get to a goal. It is not the only way to achive the goal. There are people who wear their success despite formal training like a badge of honor. Still I have trouble believing that there are people in any field who think "If I only knew less about what I'm doing..."

[alb]

I've already gotten my MBA (master in bad accentuating) playing choro. It's interesting, given my recent experience studying at the Mandolin Symposium with both Dudu Maia (formally trained, teaches professionally) and Danilo Britto (self taught apparently, and doesn't read -sheesh), learning the formal theory helps make me a more rounded player, able to play with more various styles and players, (as well as a well rounded stomach from too much sitting and practicing). But it won't ever make up for raw talent, like both of these guys have, after millions of hours of playing and practicing. I just can't seem to memorize the chord changes! I try and console myself that not many people play as well as I do who are over the age of 110...So on to my PhD (Professor of happy but deluded) in music... I did make sure that before we went onstage at the Symposium, I gave Dudu a set of foam earplugs... he truly appreciated them!

[MandoJZ]

I've been playing mandolin for three years. I manage to hit a lot of wrong notes. Where's my degree?