Why is it? [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

Nick Triesch

Sep-25-2009, 6:36pm

JEStanek

Sep-25-2009, 6:58pm

Carving an archtop and backed mandolin takes a lot more work than making a flat top guitar. If you want to have an F5 adding the scroll and points adds considerable time vs an A style mandolin and gives hardly (some say no) any tonal difference. I personally think you can find great sounding mandolins used from $1000 up. I know there are mandolins that are good enough from $200 and up.

Frankly, I don't think your pricing plan will ever float, how they sound is pretty subjective depending upon what a player is after and how the instrument is set up. Vote with your wallet. If you don't like the sound, don't buy it. If you can't afford the sound you're after, build your own. That's how and why many of the world class builders who post here got started, they couldn't afford a good mandolin on their own.

Jamie

OldSausage

Sep-25-2009, 7:09pm

Everyone has different ears, wallets, brains.

Nick Triesch

Sep-25-2009, 7:10pm

I was just making a point that mandolin players have come to a point where we think it is ok to pay a lot of money for an ordinary sounding mandolin. I know they take a lot of time to build. I do not think the sound is that subjective. When I walked into the store and asked what mandolin sounded really great, the store manager pointed to the used $6500 mandolin. He knew that it was the best on the wall. He knew as a pro it was the best mando on the wall. He orders mandolins for the shop. He always knows. That's not subjective.

OldSausage

Sep-25-2009, 7:12pm

And yet lesser mandolins still sell for large wads of cash - how to explain it?

Charley wild

Sep-25-2009, 7:27pm

Everyone has different ears, wallets, brains.

About sums it up. Most all of us are playing mandolins that are better than we are. I know I am. But that doesn't mean I won't buy another one that's a LOT better than I am!:grin:

acousticnotes

Sep-25-2009, 7:30pm

It's called capitalism guys. Really. If people want to play the big "Names" than they have to pay. Same with most things.

Joe

fishdawg40

Sep-26-2009, 6:48am

the store manager pointed to the used $6500 mandolin. He knew that it was the best on the wall. He knew as a pro it was the best mando on the wall. He orders mandolins for the shop. He always knows. That's not subjective.

Was it an F5?

Steve L

Sep-26-2009, 7:36am

The original post states that it was an F5 type.

I've heard plenty of under $5000 mandolins that sounded better than okay.

Fretbear

Sep-26-2009, 7:39am

If you can't afford the sound you're after, build your own. That's how and why many of the world class builders who post here got started, they couldn't afford a good mandolin on their own.
That's what I did. I knew exactly what I wanted, and short of a very expensive custom build, couldn't have even bought one like it from anywhere. I didn't build it because I was so enamored with the idea of building a mandolin, I did it because it allowed me to convert the money that I could afford into an instrument that I couldn't. I am not suggesting that people try this (unless they are sufficiently confident in their skills and ability to self-teach) I am just relating my experience. The mandolin looks and sounds amazing, by the way.

acousticnotes

Sep-26-2009, 8:00am

That's what I did. I knew exactly what I wanted, and short of a very expensive custom build, couldn't have even bought one like it from anywhere. I didn't build it because I was so enamored with the idea of building a mandolin, I did it because it allowed me to convert the money that I could afford into an instrument that I couldn't. I am not suggesting that people try this (unless they are sufficiently confident in their skills and ability to self-teach) I am just relating my experience. The mandolin looks and sounds amazing, by the way.

Do you have any pictures of it. Would love to see her:)

allenhopkins

Sep-26-2009, 11:11am

I do not think the sound is that subjective...He knew that it was the best on the wall. He knew as a pro it was the best mando on the wall. He orders mandolins for the shop. He always knows. That's not subjective.

Actually, you have just defined "subjective." One person's opinion on what's the best, however experienced, "pro," wise and wonderful he may be, is exactly that: subjective.

What's objective, although still somewhat subject to differences of opinion, is the quality of materials, the extent of ornamentation, the fit and finish, and the labor and material costs embodied in a particular instrument. Now, I may think that a particular figure of wood or color of finish is attractive or not, and that again is subjective. But there's no doubt that expensive, highly figured wood, and multi-coat hand-rubbed finishes, are almost universally associated with higher quality.

But sound can't help but be subjective. I may like a deep, throaty "woof"; you may like a clearer, bell-like treble. You may think my Eastman DGM-1 sounds "ordinary," I may think it's exceptional. I just sat at Bernunzio's with Grisman yesterday, and he played his new Giacomel, and I would guess that everyone listening thought it was a great-sounding mandolin. But I'm sure that you could find someone who'd prefer the sound of a Gibson or a Weber or a Monteleone.

There's general agreement that a Gibson F-9 sounds better than a Rover or a Rogue. But we're talking extremes there. You can always find "my Kentucky sounds just as good as mandolins that cost four times as much" postings here on the Cafe. Perhaps 50 mandolin players in a blindfolded test would vote otherwise, but I'd bet you'd find a substantial minority who'd agree.

What your friend at the store is doing in evaluating mandolins, is determining what instrument will sell for what price. The $6500 mandolin, whatever make or model, is in his subjective opinion the one that will bring the highest price. This may be due to its sound, but will also include its maker, vintage, appearance, condition -- a host of factors.

I agree mandolins are expensive as compared to guitars. Part of that is the economies of scale; probably 10,000 acoustic guitars are made for every mandolin, so production methods have been refined to make construction extremely efficient. Part of it is the level of competition; there are many more guitar companies, and the customer has many more choices. Part of it, as said above, is the demand for skilled hand labor in mandolin construction. And, in the end, it's also the market; mandolin players, as you well stated, are willing to pay more for an instrument at a particular quality level.

But whether that instrument is "ordinary" or not remains a matter of opinion. Oddly enough, all the instruments I own are extremely exceptionally wonderful... How'd that happen?

JEStanek

Sep-26-2009, 11:50am

No! All of mine are wonderful. ;) Well put post, Allan.

Jamie

banjoboy

Sep-26-2009, 12:00pm

It's called capitalism guys. Really. If people want to play the big "Names" than they have to pay. Same with most things.

Joe

I hate to sound naive, but how'd we get to this point, where people are willing to pay up to $25000.00 for a new instrument? I certainly don't want to minimize the work or craftsmanship of builders. I know that no matter how hard I try, I could never build anything close to the mandolins that are being built today. I basically would have nothing but a block of wood with strings on it (would probably sound like a banjo!). But still, doesn't anyone think that $5000.00, $10,000.00 or $25,000.00 is a lot of money anymore? And it's not just instruments, it's everything. We as consumers continue to fuel this insanity. Of course, I'm a hypocrite. If find myself getting frustrated cause the little woman spent $180.00 on a dress, while I am trying to figure out how to come up with a couple thousand dollars for an instrument. Saw Ricky Skaggs last night. He told the story of his father buying a ticket to see Bill Monroe when Flatt and Scruggs were playing with him. Spent a whole $.25 for the ticket, but his dad said that show was so good it would have been worth a $1.00. I spent $40.00 on my ticket. Guess that's just life.

JEStanek

Sep-26-2009, 12:15pm

Honestly, ask yourself, how many of these $10, 20, 40K mandolins are out there. Maybe 250 Loars at over $100K-several million. Gibson Master models are cranked out at probably less than 100 per year (probably less than that). Weber, Gibson, and Collings probably have similar production numbers across their lines. Small shop/individual builders make 8-24 instruments per year. Eastman in the hundreds to low thousands (just guessing). Saga brand maybe several thousand a year (I bet under 10,000 a year across all their lines). I bet most people (probably 80%) are buying instruments at the very very low to $1-2K range. The 3-5K is smaller and 5-15k range smaller still. There are only a very small percentage of folks who buy those very high end mandolins. We just get to enjoy them vicariously here or on recordings. Some of us lucky few may get handed one to try back stage or at a jam.

Personally, I'm not fueling the insanity. Realistically, very few are. There's a similar trend with other hobbies (probably the majority of us here on the Café readers and posters are hobby players) like golf, fishing, enology (wines), cars. Each of these hobbies can be gotten into and have a good deal of fun with for modest costs but, if you let XAS get to you you may do imprudent things.

As others have stated you can get a good sounding mandolin for well under $5K, what you do with it (even if you're lucky enough to afford a more expensive instrument) is up to you, not the price tag or the name on the headstock.

A final analogy, when I go to a 4 star restaurant in the city I don't expect to pay Appleby's prices.

Jamie

Charley wild

Sep-26-2009, 12:28pm

.

A final analogy, when I go to a 4 star restaurant in the city I don't expect to pay Appleby's prices.

Jamie

And the food at Appleby's might be better! Just having fun, Jaime, couldn't let that one go!:)

JeffD

Sep-26-2009, 12:37pm

I agree mandolins are expensive as compared to guitars. Part of that is the economies of scale; probably 10,000 acoustic guitars are made for every mandolin, so production methods have been refined to make construction extremely efficient. Part of it is the level of competition; there are many more guitar companies, and the customer has many more choices. Part of it, as said above, is the demand for skilled hand labor in mandolin construction. And, in the end, it's also the market; mandolin players, as you well stated, are willing to pay more for an instrument at a particular quality level.

This is all part of it, but I think the big thing, that causes all of this to fall into place, is that there are so many many more guitar players than mandolin players, and there has been for a long time. Gigantic difference in the numbers. I don't mean from a supply and demand point of view, because that would argue for higher prices on guitars. I mean that the infrastruture to supply the large and long standing market has been established. The competition to fill that market long ago created many more makers. I would guess that a someone wanting to purchase a guitar has more options than someone who wants to purchase a mandolin.

All this pushes the guitar prices down.

I remember arguing this with a big name grocer frind of mine. I asked him, half in jest, why unsalted peanuts cost more than salted peanuts. Its not like the supplier had to remove the salt. And the answer was that the market for unsalted peanuts is (or was) tiny compared to the market for salted peanuts.

sunburst

Sep-26-2009, 12:37pm

:popcorn: Haven't we been here before? :sleepy:

lenf12

Sep-26-2009, 12:49pm

I think Appleby's was determined to be among the "worst" food outlets in the US of A from a health perspective. Many of the national franchises fall into the same catagory; too much fat, sodium and way too many calories. This does not at all exempt the high priced restaurants. All it does is cast a glaring spotlight on the fact that we Americans are the consumers of a disproportionate share of the Earth's resources. That assertion extends to food, natural resources and ............oh yeah, high end mandolins. I too am guilty as charged.

Proud owner of 2 very nice (imho) Gibson mandolins plus......
Len B. Clearwater, FL

acousticnotes

Sep-26-2009, 2:02pm

JEStanek

Sep-26-2009, 2:35pm

OK. Lets step back from world politics and return to mandolins.

sgarrity

Sep-26-2009, 3:00pm

A fairer comparison would be archtop guitars. Most folks consider the Collings 16" archie to be pretty affordable for an archtop, and they're about $9-10k if memory serves me correctly. After that, the sky's the limit.

I love the looks of an F5 but I'm definitely an A-style convert. Ellis mandolins are a great example here. The F5s are about $11k while the A5 is just shy of $5k. That's a whole lotta mando for under $5k.

Then on the lower end we have instruments like the new Arches FT-O and Pomeroy flattops. some people dismiss flattops to be beginner or beater instruments. Both of these are right around the $1k mark and they're excellent mandolins. Notice I didn't say they were good for the money. I mean they are EXCELLENT mandolins. The tone from both is pretty amazing. An Arches is my next purchase!

Steve L

Sep-26-2009, 3:45pm

I was amazed by the sound, look and playability of my Arches FT-O.

Nick Triesch

Sep-26-2009, 3:49pm

I think there is a difference of subjective and just knowing what sounds best. The manager of the guitar shop always knows when he gets a great instrument in. My F5 type mandolin is very well made and costs $3500 5 years ago. It sounds just ok to me . Plays very nice . Just more of a weak sound . My friends Gibson Doyal Lawson on the other hand has huge sound. The F5 type mandolin at the store for $6500 has huge rich sound. Thats not subjective... it's a fact. Another example would be The pro mandolin players and the studio guys. They all play mandolins and guitars that sound great. Because they just know what sounds great! A stock Porsche 911 will out handle a stock Chevy Malibu. Nick

Michael Cameron

Sep-26-2009, 4:02pm

I'm not familiar with Arches instruments;but,if you like them,Mr. Garrity,they have to be fine.:cool: I have some homework to do.

The G-word has been popping up here;so,I have to add my 2 cents.

A Collings 16" archtop guitar is considered "affordable" at(rounded off) $10K.
They are exquisite,of course, as is Bendetto and other fine makers. Prices are high.

I hesitate to try to say how very much I love playing an Eastman AR605,non-cutaway,mahogany. It would serve no purpose to equate this guitar with
the above-mentioned names;but,it's inevitable to do so at some point.

At $1,200(my price NIB) the Eastman is NOT 10X "worse" than the Collings. How's that for diplomatic side-stepping? I would still be very happy with it at several times the price.

Until I got the 605 I was playing mandolin almost exclusively. Now I'm playing guitar about half the time I play.

Sorry for the hijack. I think the OP is right about the discrepancy,sorta.

Dave Cohen

Sep-26-2009, 6:26pm

Mr. Triesch, here's a suggestion to help you understand what goes into the price of an archtop mandolin. Buy a Stew-Mac F5 kit, and buy the Don MacRostie video bundled in with the kit. Build the thing to the best of your ability; take your time with it. Keep track of the time you work on it, and don't count the time for glue to dry, etc. Just keep track of the time when you are actually doing something on it. Multiply the number of hours that you spend building the thing by a reasonable hourly wage. Bear in mind that you are assembling parts made by someone else, and contemplate the number of additional hours spent by those of us who make all of our own parts from sections of dried and seasoned timber. Finally, don't forget to objectively compare your finished instrument with an example made by a reputable maker. When you are finished, report back to me for a quiz, and tell me what you think would be the minimum price that a luthier would have to charge just to break even on making a mandolin. For now, I'll let you leave out overhead line items like machinery and its' maintenance, shop space, heating, cooling, humidity control, shop insurance, etc. Oh, and one more thing: check the websites of lutherie suppliers like LMII, Allied Lutherie, Orcas Island Tonewoods, Old Standard Wood, Stew-Mac, case makers and suppliers, etc., etc., to get an idea of what it costs us before we even get started on a mandolin.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

acousticnotes

Sep-26-2009, 6:38pm

I think a lot of people wonder about how much money is really in a mandolin. Materials can't be 10,000 can they. Of course not. Your paying for the workmanship and years of experience which in turn gives a product a reputation to command the big bucks. Playability, sound and style is only part of the equation. I believe prestige is the other.

Joe

P.S. Just saw Dave's post. Makes a lot of sense.

Nick Triesch

Sep-26-2009, 6:58pm

Dave, I understand all the work and skill that goes into building a mandolin. What I am saying is that most mandolins in the $3000-5000 range sound only so so. I know guitars are very different but for the same money you can get a really great guitar. Why are folks paying huge money to buy an ordinary sounding very pretty very well made mandolin. I hear about it all the time, folks are always saying " it should sound a lot better after it breaks in". I'll never do it again.

Glassweb

Sep-26-2009, 7:06pm

[QUOTE=Nick Triesch] Dave, I understand all the work and skill that goes into building a mandolin. What I am saying is that most mandolins in the $3000-5000 range sound only so so.

sorry to disagree, but i don't believe, let's say... an Ellis or Kimble A-model mandolin (both of which can be bought for under $5,000) are just "so-so" sounding mandolins. plenty of FANTASTIC sounding new mandolins can be had for between $3K and $5K!

Douglas McMullin

Sep-26-2009, 7:32pm

What I am saying is that most mandolins in the $3000-5000 range sound only so so.

I think you can easily get an amazing sounding instrument in that price range, and I would say you can also spend less and do equally well. My Phoenix Standard (a little over $3K) and my Collings MT ($1700 when I got it), both sound absolutely amazing to me. Even when compared to $10K mandolins I don't think they sound just so so; they still sound absolutely amazing.

Willie

Sep-26-2009, 7:53pm

Nick...a lot of "High end" mandos aren`t sold directly to the consumer, they are sold through a dealer and of course each one of them want to make a buck when they make a deal, just like a car manufactor, dealers are the ones that seem to make most of the profit...I was lucky once and found a music store that was going out of business and bought a great Flatiron mandolin at his coast plus a few bucks extra, or so he said, it listed in the 3500 dollar range like you are talking about and I got it for a little over half of that, One dealer I know marks everything up 100% or in easier terms he doubles the price he pays for instruments, when I asked him why he said "supply and demand"...Guitars are in more demand than mandolins....I will agree with you though that the price should not be refelective on the way an instrument sounds because not everyone thinks certain instruments sound good......WHEW....Willie

Michael Cameron

Sep-26-2009, 7:57pm

Nick,maybe you have a great mandolin(I missed reading what you have) and you make it sound ordinary?

Not trying to be rude;but,I can make a Gilchrist,Nugget,Red Diamond,Kimble,or Derrington MM sound ordinary and have.
I have plenty of witnesses.

I've certainly been guilty of hearing with my eyes;and,they're not much better than my ears.

clarksavage

Sep-26-2009, 8:27pm

This is a bit of fun.

"Knowing" the "best" - from my own engineering or scientific perspective this is a subjective statement. Nothing wrong with it at all, and "best" is still fitting and may suit all kinds of people's needs and desires going to that music shop. You can be very "happy" with your instrument and think it is a lot "better" than others, good for you! I have no way to prove you right or wrong until you give me specific objective parameters that I am able to measure objectively and compare. I need a well formed, complete, consistent and correct specification of "best mandolin" before I can apply science to this topic. And I'll never do that, I suspect.

That said, all the other guys are wrong - it is I who has the "best" mandolins in my music room. They all cost less than the guitars I have, but they are also the "best."

I love this forum.

Clark

Michael Cameron

Sep-26-2009, 8:58pm

Ah,Science meets Art.

:grin:

sgarrity

Sep-26-2009, 9:04pm

sorry to disagree, but i don't believe, let's say... an Ellis or Kimble A-model mandolin (both of which can be bought for under $5,000) are just "so-so" sounding mandolins. plenty of FANTASTIC sounding new mandolins can be had for between $3K and $5K!

I agree completely, there are some very good A-styles available in that price range. And that's why I'm an A-style convert. but I think the OP was referring to F5s when he was quoting that price range. And I will agree that I've played a lot of exceedingly average F5s in that price range. I've also played some mighty fine F5s in that range. It really is dependent on the individual instrument.

Dave Cohen

Sep-26-2009, 9:07pm

Since your assignment is to build just one mandolin from a kit, I'll give you six months...., and since your complaint is about sound, we can have several Cafe members "taste" your results.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

Nick Triesch

Sep-26-2009, 9:10pm

I should have been more clear, I am really talking about F type mandolins. I know some A types can sound really fantastic. I have a very nice mandolin and I really don't want to slam it because it is not a bad F type at all. Just ordinary. I do know what a good mandolin sounds like. This is what started it all for me. Please , I'm not a bad person. A good friend of mine let me play her 2005 Doyle Lawson for several days and it is the best mandolin I have ever heard. Fantastic tone and TWICE as loud as mine. No kidding. It cost $7000. Mine cost $3500. Would cost about $5000 now. I could buy a tone guard and pop on J75 strings but then I would only make an ordinary sounding mandolin sound a little better. Also, we had a friend over and I wanted to show the Gibson off and I played her a tune. Then I brought out my mandolin and played the same tune. Both mandolins set up very well and with the same strings. Our friend said that my mandolin sounded like a toy compared to the Gibson. My mandolin is a work of art. It is the most perfect thing I have ever owned. Just sounds So So. I think most you you guys know what I am talking about. Most folks mandolins you play just sound ordinary. Even if they cost a lot. Only a few mandolins sound really outstanding. And most of the time they cost a ton. I have on a few occasions played a really great mandolin that did not cost a huge amount. There was that time at Buffalo Bros that I asked the main mandolin guy what was the best mandolin on the wall at that time. He told me that he had a real sleeper. He pulled off a very plain Weber bitteroot with maple back and sides and it one of the best mandolins I have ever played. It was $3800. I should have bought it on the spot. It was one of the few great ones. Back to my main subject, most mandolins in the $3500-5000 range sound only so so. That's a lot of cash for so so. Man, that's a clean used Honda Civic!! Nick

sgarrity

Sep-26-2009, 9:19pm

Back to my main subject, most mandolins in the $3500-5000 range sound only so so. That's a lot of cash for so so. Man, that's a clean used Honda Civic!! Nick

I understand what you're trying to say. And I tend to agree. But I wouldn't say that "most" in that price range sound so-so. That's too broad of a statement. And as you found out with that particular Bitterroot, good ones are out there in that price range. Regardless of whether they sound "great," F5 mandolins take a lot of labor to build and are going to be expensive.

Glassweb

Sep-26-2009, 9:29pm

(QUOTE - Clark Savage)

"Knowing" the "best" - from my own engineering or scientific perspective this is a subjective statement. Nothing wrong with it at all, and "best" is still fitting and may suit all kinds of people's needs and desires going to that music shop. You can be very "happy" with your instrument and think it is a lot "better" than others, good for you! I have no way to prove you right or wrong until you give me specific objective parameters that I am able to measure objectively and compare. I need a well formed, complete, consistent and correct specification of "best mandolin" before I can apply science to this topic. And I'll never do that, I suspect.

uhhhh, say what??? :disbelief:

fishtownmike

Sep-26-2009, 9:32pm

There is less demand for mandolins compared to guitars. If you ever noticed with any product the prices start to drop when demand is high and there are many manufacturers. Most guitars these days are machine made by cnc. Mandolins still have a lot of hand work in them just like quality carved top guitars and takes much longer to build. Time equals more money.

hank

Sep-26-2009, 11:03pm

Hey Nick, I know exactly what your saying. The tone to many especially those that have little experience sounds fine until you can do a side by side comparison. Also those that want a cannon on the bass end(aka killer chop)are looking for something that just doesn't happen with the construction of every mandolin. Most builders make em to their spec's but being the way wood is only some come out of the batch that really rock on the volume and bass end. I'm guessing a lot if not most people getting into mandolins can't compare tone side by side or with an experienced ear like you have now after playing a while. I personally just don't think all of the mandolins come out the same. Most builds will be the average sounding mandolin with the exceptional sounding builds that have more volume and feel it in your gut bass or chop only happening randomly or by truely gifted luthiers that understand what makes that happen at a deeper level and have a higher success rate at producing it. Either way those mandolins are special if you find another one at an affordable price jump on it and consider yourself lucky own one.

Patrick Gunning

Sep-27-2009, 1:42am

Seems to me like you need a new mandolin, if your current one is ticking you off so much.

Timleo

Sep-27-2009, 3:01am

Eh, I don't know Nick. In regards to the idea that prices should drop for F-style mandolins...I think it would be nice, but in my recent experience I believe quality, however subjective, is related to workmanship. And workmanship shouldn't be skimped for a lower price tag.

At the same time however, I understand the stress in wanting a fine mandolin, but not having the money to afford one. I just went through that. I went in swinging though, and came out victorious haha. There are PLENTY of quality works under $2,500. handmade in the US, archtop, carved, all that. I mean, my breedlove was $1,500. Granted, that may not seem like alot of money in comparison to an F5, but every person is different buddy. I don't even own a damn car lol and I invested 1.5k in an instrument. So for me, that is alot of money.

I used to complain about how expensive fender acoustics were. ($400) Then I played guitar for 7 years. Now I hear one and cringe (no offense lol). it's all made overseas by machine, with less than quality materials, and usually, not solid wood. Is that the world you want to live in!? A world of machine made mandos! With like, little micro chips embedded in the scrolls where the chinese can listen to our lives! Don't go to the bathroom while playing your mandolin. The chinese will hear you pee. :(

Hans

Sep-27-2009, 5:06am

:popcorn: Haven't we been here before? :sleepy:

And how many times? :sleepy:

sgarrity

Sep-27-2009, 5:30am

If we only discussed brand new topics, I'd be willing to bet our post counts would drop by at least half. :whistling:

Dfyngravity

Sep-27-2009, 6:21am

I went to a high end guitar shop yesterday and I played a fantastic expensive F5 type mandolin that sounded great. It was $6500 used. Why is it that you can find a great and I mean great guitar new or used for $3000 to $5000 no problem. But you can spend $3000- to $5000 on an ordinary sounding mandolin? If you really think about that, that is crazy! That is a lot of cash for ordinary. How did we get to this place? Where we will still put out the cash for mandolins that just sound OK. I think that maybe prices should change to how a mandolin sounds. For instance years ago a guy came to my house with two very new Martin D35's. One sounded huge and full and wonderful. The other was just like the first one in every way except it sounded weak and thin with no bass at all. Yep, the first one was hundreds more. I know it is a lot harder to make mandolins but I think they just cost too much overall. I was talking to the shop manager and we both agreed that a Kentucky KM 1000 can sound as good as many really expensive models. Just a thought, Nick

First off, I think you can find a number of awesome F5 mandolins for 3-5K, but you are probably like you said more likely to find them above 5k for a brand new one.

Now back to your question, I believe it is in the back and top. A high end flat top guitar has a flat top and back, but a high end 'f-style' mandolin has a fairly complicated carved top and back with intricate carving and binding work around the scroll. So take Dr. Cohen's suggestion, and think about carving the top and back of an 'f-style' mandolin vs. the top and back of a guitar. Think about how much more time, effort, care, calculations, ect...it is going to take you to carve the top and back for the mandolin than it is for a flat top guitar, or mandolin for that fact. I would say that is the biggest difference.

sunburst

Sep-27-2009, 10:31am

If we only discussed brand new topics, I'd be willing to bet our post counts would drop by at least half. :whistling:

Perhaps that's true, and going over old ground for the benefit of newer members can be a good thing, but as a builder of F5 style mandolins I can say that it gets a little tiring being repeatedly accused of ripping people off with the price (well under $20,000 BTW) when the only fair comparisons are flat top mandolin to flat top guitar and carved top mandolin to carved top guitar. I'll go farther and say that a carved top guitar should be more fairly compared to a carved top "A" than an "F". I'm sure one could get a custom guitar builder to carve an archtop guitar with a scroll, but what would the price be? I would bet it would be more than an F5 mandolin and probably a lot more.

People seem to look at little ol' mandolins next to big ol' guitars and think; "wait a minute, why is this little insignificant mandolin more expensive than that big important guitar?", then the question shows up here and the thread goes on for pages. I don't expect the general public to fully understand how much more work goes into an F5 mandolin than goes into a flat top guitar, how much easier it is to put flat top guitars into production than it is carved mandolins, how much different the guitar and mandolin markets are, but it shouldn't take pages and pages of thread after thread to get the basics of those reasons across.

Michael Cameron

Sep-27-2009, 10:46am

I can see why it is a VERY trying subject to luthiers and devotees.

Also,I don't remember these type of threads at all back when more people had more expendable income(me included).

The times they are a changin'.

I have voted with my cash more than several times.
Education really IS expensive. Always has been.

Michael Cameron

Sep-27-2009, 10:55am

OP,here's one that might qualify as a good'un for under $5K:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=36960&query=retrieval

Ted Eschliman

Sep-27-2009, 5:38pm

Red Henry

Sep-27-2009, 5:47pm

Why is it that you can find a great and I mean great guitar new or used for $3000 to $5000 no problem. But you can spend $3000- to $5000 on an ordinary sounding mandolin? Nick

Keep an eye on what's available. Sometimes excellent-quality "maker" mandolins are available for surprising prices. I recently acquired a very nice Randy Wood F-5 (with radiused fingerboard, yet) on eBay for only $4200, barely 1/3 the price of Randy's new mandolins. And the mandolin, 9 years old, has a very strong and pleasing sound, with pure treble, good solid bass, and excellent "chunk" chords clear up the neck, together with plenty of volume.

Keep an eye open-- deals are out there. You don't have to break the bank.

Red

Nick Triesch

Sep-27-2009, 6:47pm

If you read my posts I say that there are great F5 type mandolins out there for $3500-5000. My point again is that most of them sound ordinary. Only a very few sound great. When I started this post all I was saying is that players seem to be OK with paying $3000-5000 for a So So mandolin. It has turned into the norm. I'm not putting down any bulider. I love mandolins and guitars. I have a fantastic guitar and a so so mandolin. I do have a great Gibson A type from 1923 that is 100 times better than my newer F type. Just not for bluegrass. I really think that most of you folks agree with me and know what I am talking about. A ton of really nice F type mandolins are made with perfect fit and finish and terrific detail with no bass response what so ever. Just beautiful quiet mandolins. Nick

Douglas McMullin

Sep-27-2009, 7:41pm

If you read my posts I say that there are great F5 type mandolins out there for $3500-5000. My point again is that most of them sound ordinary. Only a very few sound great. When I started this post all I was saying is that players seem to be OK with paying $3000-5000 for a So So mandolin.

I cant speak for anyone else, but I understood your message and I think you can easily get a great sounding mandolin for for under $3000. For $3000-$5000 the task is that much easier. I don't think that either of my mandolins are "so-so" sounding, and I have said that after comparing them to $10K plus mandolins. In fact, I think they both sound exceptional and I barely spend more than $3K on one and under $2K on the other.

This is all pretty subjective stuff.

John Kasley

Sep-27-2009, 7:51pm

JeffD

Sep-28-2009, 3:28am

I'm going to jump in here with some half-formed conclusions based on my reading of this thread. Feel free to disagree.

1. The price of a new mandolin (sold by a maker or retailer to an end user) is directly proportional to the cost of materials and labor plus a profit margin offset by some difference (+ or -) determined by competitive factors..

I beg to differ.

The price of anything is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it. Its up to the manufacturer, luthier, or what ever, to be able to make it with a total cost of materials and labor that allows some profit.

The price of something is determined by the market. It is sort of an aggregate of what everyone is willing to pay.

The market for mandolins is different than that for guitars, a mandolin costs roughly twice a guitar of comparable quality.

This has little to do with manufacturing techniques or labor or materials, it is due to market things, like the number of and kinds of folks buying guitars and the number of folks and kind of folks buying mandolins, the number of folks supplying guitars and the number of folks supplying mandolins, etc.

Compared to mandolins, there are a lot more guitar makers and guitars being made, than mandolins, to feed an almost imcomparably bigger and more diverse market.

Red Henry

Sep-28-2009, 5:03am

If bass response is often a problem, consider this: The Gibson F-5 design was developed and manufactured at a time when mandolins (and other instruments) may have been usually tuned lower than they are now.

For example, I am told that in the 1920s, A=432 was a common concert standard. F-5 mandolins were certainly designed to play classical music, so that was how they were tuned. Tune any good mandolin down that far, and you may hear a lot more bass response from it. Trouble is, few other pickers will tune that way, since they're often dependent on electronic tuners and don't want to change the tuner settings from A=440.

--so we are playing instruments (F-5s and copies of them) which are tuned to a pitch they were not designed for. No wonder they often have a low-end problem!

However, I have played a few F-5-style mandolins which, even tuned to A=440, had really magnificent bass response and good balance to go with it -- and one of them was an old Gibson.

Red

hank

Sep-28-2009, 8:30am

In another thread "Hot Rodding a G" one poster suggested opening up his f- holes. Rightly so he was advised by some of our posting luthiers that this could do unchangeable degrading to his tone. My very limited understanding of tuning suggest one correct size for apertures for the volume of the enclosure. On the other hand Loar's A5 that never went into production used slightly smaller f holes to offset the smaller enclosure for better base response. Gibson's Lawson and Goldrush models use simular slightly reduced f holes and both have good bass response. Would it be possible to inlay(wood would allow further tuning option from original inlay dimension)the f holes of a used mandolin with decreasing the aperture to allow lowering the tuning toward the bass spectrum? Randy woods regraduation of older Gibsons seems to be the fix for thicker builds but I haven't read much about his results with other makers. Knowing enough about this to have bad idea's doesn't qualify me to suggest any modification but if a luthier could come up with a way to make a weaker sounding mandolin more suitable for Bluegrass musicians I believe there is enough of a market to keep him/her busy in a very profitable way.

John Kasley

Sep-28-2009, 9:03am

I beg to differ.

The price of anything is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it. Its up to the manufacturer, luthier, or what ever, to be able to make it with a total cost of materials and labor that allows some profit.

The price of something is determined by the market. It is sort of an aggregate of what everyone is willing to pay.

The market for mandolins is different than that for guitars, a mandolin costs roughly twice a guitar of comparable quality.

This has little to do with manufacturing techniques or labor or materials, it is due to market things, like the number of and kinds of folks buying guitars and the number of folks and kind of folks buying mandolins, the number of folks supplying guitars and the number of folks supplying mandolins, etc.

Compared to mandolins, there are a lot more guitar makers and guitars being made, than mandolins, to feed an almost imcomparably bigger and more diverse market.

I think we are in agreement. Maybe we are thinking of different definitions of the word "competitive". By "competitive factors" I meant the things you mention such as the nature of the market, market segments, positioning of the product in the market, branding, degree of differentiation with similar products available in the marketplac,etc. These all influence what a willing seller will accept from a willing buyer and vice versa. So yes, of course, the price is ultimately determined by the market. However, the maker still must recover cost of materials, labor, operating expenses, cost of capital, time invested in learning the craft, etc. plus a profit margin. If they don't they will soon be out of business or they are engaged in a hobby/labor of love rather than a business. In some cases the market may be willing to pay substantially more than the maker's costs plus say 10% profit margin. On the other hand, the market may well determine that it won't pay what a maker needs to recover costs plus profit and the business ends up unsuccessful (even though the product may be quite good).

Another thing to think about when considering costs of a maker such as Gibson OAI or Eastman is all the overhead a large company has to recover compared to an individual luthier. (marketing, advertising, employee benefits, administrative costs, real estate, parts inventory, etc). "Middle-men" such as distributors and retailers also tack on a cost to the ultimate selling price.

It would be interesting to know if Gibson OAI is operated as a separate profit center within the overall company and if the profit margin on OAI products is greater or less than say solid body electric guitars. But, it's a private company and that is also proprietary information.

Red Henry

Sep-28-2009, 9:35am

In another thread "Hot Rodding a G" one poster suggested opening up his f- holes. Rightly so he was advised by some of our posting luthiers that this could do unchangeable degrading to his tone..

Right, larger sound-holes can RAISE (now lower) the instrument's resonance, increasing the treble. (This may be why the "Clarence White" mod on guitars, enlarging the soundhole, is popular-- it may raise the body resonance of a D-model guitar farther up into the lead range).

I have an excellent Old Wave A-model which is notable for its good bass response. The f-holes are indeed smaller than usual. It may be that this mod could make up for the difference in the modern tuning standard compared to the 1920s pitch I was talking about before. But you'd have to be VERY careful not to cut down the treble response, since treble lead is so important to a mandolin's sound-- like the violin, the mandolin carries the high part.

A fine Florida mandolin builder, Lon Williamson, actually builds his mandolins with smaller f-holes and tries them out "in the white," gradually enlarging the holes until the balance suits him. His mandolins sound really good, too. I hope that other builders will do something like that.

Red

Red Henry

Sep-28-2009, 9:40am

Another thing to think about when considering costs of a maker such as Gibson OAI or Eastman is all the overhead a large company has to recover compared to an individual luthier.

Correct! Middlemen take their share. If a mandolin is to sell for, say, $15,000, Gibson or other large companies can put maybe $7500 to $10,000 of work+profit into it, depending on what price they sell it to the music store for. Then their big, possibly inefficient corporate overhead takes a big chunk of the profit, reducing the possible work-hours put into the instrument even further. On the other hand, Randy Wood, Steve Gilchrist, or another private builder can put the whole $15,000 of work into it!

Red

Red Henry

Oct-05-2009, 2:20pm

Those looking for a good mandolin with excellent low-end response might be interested in a Givens A-model that Elderly has in stock-- they had it on display at the IBMA convention, and I played it. It's a very satisfying instrument with a lot of bass response (small f-holes, too, for those who are taking notes). For $3200, I thought it was quite a deal.

Red

PS-- For those for whom spending only $3200 provides insufficient financial excitement, Elderly also has a Loar in stock. It's in very fine condition. Price: a cool quarter million.
.

Glassweb

Oct-05-2009, 2:30pm

Red, did you get to try the July 9th Loar? Your thoughts?

Red Henry

Oct-05-2009, 3:07pm

Red, did you get to try the July 9th Loar? Your thoughts?

I did try that instrument out. It, of course, is very finely made and (like most Loars I've played) has a very pure sound, with bell-like highs and so forth, but since it is in such excellent condition, I think its greatest overall response may still need to be played into it.

To my ear, in spite of its being dated the same day as Monroe's, its tone (along with that of most Loars I've played) was fairly different from that of Bill Monroe's mandolin. But as a very amateur economist, since it's a July 9th Loar in beautiful condition, I estimate that its value can only go up.

. . . . .

This reminds me of an interesting thing that happened a few years ago. I was picking at a large party in Georgia, and Randy Wood #1 was doing fine as usual among quite a few banjos and guitars. They weren't giving any slack to the mandolin player, but RW#1 will cut through about anything and still maintain its great Monroe-like tone.

Then a picker I know brought out an old F-5 which a mutual friend had sent with him to the party, and he handed it to me to play. This was the famous scratched-out-label Loar. It was a pretty quiet mandolin, even when played firmly. We all picked a few tunes. It was really remarkable how quiet everybody got in order to listen to the Loar's breaks, where they had not altered their playing volume in the least for RW#1. I was slightly amused. It was as if the Loar, not the picker, was what they thought deserved to be carefully listened to...

Red

Glassweb

Oct-05-2009, 3:38pm

thanks Red... great, insightful post! well, it's a funny thing with Loars in that they truly seem to be a "sum of all their parts". at this point, for me, i think it's the overall "feel" of these rare mandolins that seems to attract me the most. sure, the sound of a Loar can be exceptional, but there's something about the tactile quality of these instruments that transports me to that higher ground every time... nothin' like 'em...

f5loar

Oct-05-2009, 9:16pm

I get cold chills everytime I pick a Loar but I also get a great feeling picking a $1500 Kentucky KM1000. A great mandolin is always a great mandolin. If you can understand the prices of cars of all makes and models then you can understand the price of guitars and mandolins. Every time I see that Barrett/Jackson Car Auction show I can't help but wonder if these buyers simply have more money then they know what do with.
I look at the dozens of guitar builders (most I've never heard of or seen one) in the back of the Acoustic Guitar magazine and one must wonder who is buying all these guitars? The same can be said for all the mandolin builders.