Maybe they were always great . . .

[fredfrank]

A thought occurred to me today. You know how everybody says the Loars have had ninety years to open up and sound great? Well, maybe they sounded that way when they were new.

The thing that got me thinking this is my new Red Diamond Vintage A. When I got my Vintage F, it had been taken around to shows and a lot of people had played it for a year. Naturally, I assumed that it had been played in during that time. But when I got this Vintage A with the Crusher voicing, it sounded as good as any Loar I've been around. Very loud and mature, it sounds just like it has been around for ninety years, even though it's brand new.

I know it sounds like I'm excited about a new mandolin here, but I've never had a mandolin that just honks right out of the box! (I've always wanted to use that expression) That's what got me thinking, maybe Lloyd just knew how to voice those mandolins, and the builders have just been chasing him around all these years. I feel like Don MacRostie has got it down. I can hardly wait to play one of the Reischman voiced versions.

[Gerard Dick]

It is logical. They lived in the era before amplification. To fill a concert hall with sound they had only two options. a: gather an army of musicians so that the combined voices of their instruments would be sufficiently loud. or b: have a smaller number of musicians play powerful instruments that still sound good. As the sound tends to get muddy when larger numbers of individuals play together because of timing issues, option b would have been their "holy grail" I don't doubt that Loar & Co. had achieved this aim. When Monroe acquired his Loar in the 50's it was a young 30 something and I'm sure he didn't buy it for its funky looks.

[allenhopkins]

...I'm sure he didn't buy it for its funky looks.

Monroe apparently gave it most of its "funky looks."

[MikeEdgerton]

... When Monroe acquired his Loar in the 50's...

He bought it in 1943.

[Don Grieser]

Fred,

Congrats on the RD. I think Don's one of the great builders and under-appreciated except by those who've had the chance to play a RD. And I still haven't got my hands on one of his vintage models.

Now, what's that A going to do when it opens up? Sounds like a lot of fun playing time ahead of you.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From what i've heard from a friend who's played more than a few,some simply aren't great at all.
No surprise there though. What would be a surprise in fact near 'miraculous', would be if they WERE
all as good as the 'good ones', I fully understand Fred's point & it could well be. I've only played one Heiden F-5 & that was years before i started playing Mandolin. I played my 3-chord trick on it,& nearly dropped it,it was simply amazing. It was loud & clear - simply stunning. My late Canadian friend,David Tinkoff,who's Mandolin it was, told me he got it shipped out from Michael Heiden to his home in Ottawa, & it sounded that good 'right out of the box'. If it can be done once ,it can be done again - but not with ALL of them i think. Some are bound to be better than others,
Ivan

[fredfrank]

Fred,

Congrats on the RD.
Now, what's that A going to do when it opens up? Sounds like a lot of fun playing time ahead of you.

Thanks, Don. If this Vintage A opens up I better review the glass insurance on my house!

I've bought and sold my way to this point with a lot of high-end mandolins. Whenever I would express my disappointment with an instrument, people would always say: "Oh, just give it a couple of years of playing time". I gotta say, if they all sounded this good this quickly, MAS would be close to being extinguished.

I, too, have also heard that not all Loars are great. But of the ones that are, I have to wonder if they started out that way. It seems quite possible after having my recent experience.

[tree]

He bought it in 1943.

And it would be a reasonable assumption that his motivation was that this instrument spoke to him. It was only what, 20 years old at that point, and probably hadn't been played very much.

I think the OP has something.

[F-2 Dave]

In my humble unsolicited opinion, a truly great sounding mandolin starts out sounding great and can get better over time considering play-wear and care. That said, an average sounding mandolin can sound better over time too. I know there are probably exceptions, but I doubt that an average sounding mandolin ever changes enough to become a great sounding mandolin.

I heard somebody say something once, probably here, (disclaimer...This comment is not intended to draw fire from Gibson fans. I too, have and play a Gibson and love it) that Gibson only has to make a good sounding mandolin with the Gibson name on the headstock for people to buy it. The small independant makers have to make mandolins that sound as good or better than Gibson's best mandolins right out of the box. Quite a daunting task that many have accomplished with hard work and innovation.

[Willie]

I bought a mandolin that went the other way, it sounded great right out of the box and 3 or 4 years later it had lost everything....I gave it away to a young mandolin player and he spent a few dollars trying to get it back up to snuff but it never did get back to sounding like it did when it was new...BTW I don`t want to "knock" any maker but it was a popular brand of mandolin that is mentioned on here quite a bit.....Willie

[Coffeecup]

Just wondering - my mandolin teacher said that the Asians have better access to large quantities of good instrument timber than western countries. I wonder if that implies that old Loars were built from better timber than is now available?

[fredfrank]

Just wondering - my mandolin teacher said that the Asians have better access to large quantities of good instrument timber than western countries.


Given that, you would think the Pac rim mandolins would be the holy grail of instruments. I think that it depends more on the skill to shape that wood into a good instrument than the wood itself. Obviously, a really lousy piece of wood wouldn't work for anyone, but I'm thinking there is a lot a great luthier can do even with average wood.

I've heard it said that the really pretty quilted maple and highly figured flame maples, etc., don't necessarily make better sounding instruments. Heck, the back on my new A model isn't really all that special, but the sound it spits out through the F-holes is amazing for an average-looking piece of wood.

[sunburst]

...my mandolin teacher said that the Asians have better access to large quantities of good instrument timber than western countries...

...I wonder if that implies that old Loars were built from better timber than is now available?

1.
Hogwash!
2.
Absolutely not.

[Bob DeVellis]

Well, one thing we know is that the F-5 was not warmly received at the time of its first appearance. Some pros leveled scathing criticism at it and it certainly didn't sell well. The latter was partially the result of the shift away from earlier musical styles toward early jazz forms.

Regarding the options for instruments being heard without amplification, the common solution had been to perform in smaller venues. Mandolins, guitars, and even gut-string banjos were probably played far more often in parlors than concert halls, although the emergence of guitar-mandolin-banjo clubs changed that. Still, though, I don't think they were performing in colossal venues. I read the evidence as suggesting that the F-5 wasn't sufficiently louder than what came before to overcome the huge sound that jazz ensembles offered as competition. It may have been louder and more cutting but not to a degree that "solved the problem," so to speak. (I could be wrong, though.)

This is not to say they weren't good or even great. It's just that we're left largely with speculations and the words of paid endorsers. Critiques I've seen from independent judges (which are not numerous) were not terribly favorable but those folks may have been endorsing competing brands. So, while it may be true, I just don't see compelling evidence for the argument that the Loar mandolins were born great.

[Rob Powell]

I would bet that quite a few mandolins sound great right out of the box. I doubt that certain builders would let one go if it wasn't already killer. Dudes, Gils, Nuggets, Hamletts and Brentrups don't go anywhere unless they already sound great. I don't intend any slight to any builder not mentioned....

SOME of the pac rims are no more touch and go than the American made mandos.

I played an Eastman 505 for a short while that was killer and it was made just a few short months before I played it. My 2008 Weber killed other Webers made in 2006. My "The Loar" was killer from the day I got it.

ON the other hand, before I bought the Weber I played a TON of mandolins from everywhere and this one sounded the best. Even compared to another JUST like it in the same shop, it sounds better. Still, it takes some time to warm up when I play it and the LM-700 kicks from the moment it's tuned.

So Frank's supposition is correct as I see it. Sometimes they just sound good from day one and I bet a LOT of the Loars are like that. 'Course, I'll never know unless I win the lottery ;)

PS - What I'm currently dying for is the tone I heard on a Nugget at the Pickin' Parlor in Colorado. I suspect that's a tone I'll never afford.

[250sc]

Did Loyd Loar actually ever build a mandolin?

[evanreilly]

Here is Lloyd in his element. Don't see a lot of wood-shavings, tho.
A big pile of Virzis, tho......

[mandopete]

I feel like Don MacRostie has got it down. I can hardly wait to play one of the Reischman voiced versions.

I have never heard of this, do tell, inquiring minds want to know.

[man dough nollij]

Here is Lloyd in his element. Don't see a lot of wood-shavings, tho.
A big pile of Virzis, tho......

Is that an H-5 he has?

[Gerard Dick]

Thanks for the date correction Mike, I got my decades mixed up. That one must have been a cannon. Barely 20 years young.

[evanreilly]

That is a one-of-a-kind 10 string mandola (correct me if I am wrong!). I believe it was his personal instrument and that Roger Siminoff has it now.

[John Gardinsky]

Hey Fred what number is your Vintage 22 RD? My neighbor has #188 and it is a dandy. I have #193 - Vintage 24 and love it. I got it 6 months out of the box and it is wonderful. Don has IT figured out.

[fredfrank]

I have never heard of this, do tell, inquiring minds want to know.
Pete - check out Red Diamond's web site under the Vintage series. So far, Don MacRostie has replicated David Grisman's Loar - which Dave has nicknamed "Crusher", and Reischman's Loar.

[fredfrank]

Hey Fred what number is your Vintage 22 RD? My neighbor has #188 and it is a dandy. I have #193 - Vintage 24 and love it. I got it 6 months out of the box and it is wonderful. Don has IT figured out.

My A-model is #203, the last one on the current owner's list. I think after talking with him that he has another batch in the process, though. I've never played a mandolin that inspires me like his Vintage series.