1912 Gibson F-4

[mcloudnine]

Hello all, I'm new to this Forum and for the most part new to mandolins. I'm typically a guitar player/collector and admit to knowing nothing about mandolins. I may have overdone it this time in venturing into this project with little knowledge on the subject. This one was on eBay and I just couldn't resist. I was drawn to it from the moment I saw it. I plan on sending it off to George Gruhn to get an appraisal/opinion on it but thought I would ask the experts on this forum about it first. I discovered this Forum when researching this instrument.

From what I could find on the internet, this has some unusal features like a single flower pot headstock inlay and "The Gibson" is in script accross the top of the headstock, more straight than angled. There is no truss rod. All I found online had the double flower pot inlay, and "The Gibson" was more slanted and lower on the headstock. Is this unusual or possibly transitional? It's got a black top finish, reddish back and sides, super one-piece flame maple back, what appears to the the original pickguard, tailpiece and nut. It has a single piece of ivory for the bridge, which I am thinking is not original. It also does not have the inlaid Handel tuners, which all I found from this time period had. It does not appear to have had any other tuners on it. OK, now the bad. It has a severe neck break that went at an angle from the 7th fret to the nut. No damage to the fingerboard. It's hanging on by a thread. Much worse than originally thought.

So, what are your comments? Did I blow it by buying this thing and will never be able to repair it or is it worthy of restoration? Please be honest. I won't be offended. I appreciate any and all comments and opinions. Thank you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370252528052&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

[Jim Garber]

I am sure that the true Gibson experts will weight in soon enough. Something looks wrong and it looks (to me) that it is in the headstock. It looks like the upper part of the neck was grafted on and (perhaps) an attempt was made to make a repro inlay. I dunno but otherwise a quick look at the photos looks like the body might be right for a teens F4.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thankfully George's appraisals are always above true market value.

[Jack Roberts]

Get it fixed and playable. I think it is a great conversation piece.

[woodwizard]

Beautiful one piece back on that one... from this chart it puts it being made around 1912. The neck looks to be a big problem for you. Even fixed the price would reflect that it was repaired and not original now. I know that neck heel repairs will really lower the value of vintage instruments. I think neck problems are the worst thing to have. IMHO ... PS It can be fixed and be a player for sure. Just depends how much you're willing to put into it.

[mcloudnine]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, the neck is the big downer. What my main concerns are is it original and is it repairable? The features make you wonder. I don't see any evidence of a headstock graft but there is some funkiness where the fingerboard is attached to the neck and the body. I just noticed a FON stamped inside the body 1462. I'm interested in hearing any more opinons on it. Thanks.

[Jack Roberts]

FON of 1462 confirms the same information, it is from 1912, although the headstock is not, or at least it has been repaired with a non original inlay. My guess is that somebody whacked the headstock off the instrument at one time and a new one was grafted on by cutting the neck at that long angle. But someone should take a long look at it, because there may be another explanation about how a 1912 mandolin could get a more modern inlay on the headstock.

There are lots of good luthiers who can clean up that repair for you and you will have a nice, playable instrument. I don't think the re-glue and repair would be too bad, as we did something similar to my son's gibson guitar for about $150.00.

But take it to a pro who knows old Gibson mandolins. You don't say where you are located.

[mcloudnine]

I was just looking at it again and I suppose it's possible that it is a different headstock grafted on the neck where the break is. It's just it goes back together so tight when you push it together it seems like one in the same. It does appear to me that the fingerboard has been off and on though. What would that headstock be from if not original to the body? Didn't they have a truss rod by the time they went to the single flower pot? And even then, none I saw had the logo so high and straight on the headstock? I'm perplexed but intrigued. Thanks again for the comments.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

The tuners look like mid twenties waverlies. Perhaps it was a Gibson factory repair and they replaced the headstock venier and added a Loar Flower Pot inlay?? Still a real nice F4, love the back!

[Ken Waltham]

I know that peghead inlay well. The first vintage instrument I ever bought was a 1925 F4, and it was exactly the same peghead inlay. And tuners as well.
You have a factory repair of an older F4, looks like.
If that one scares you, or you feel creeped out about repairing it, I am offering to buy it now.
Thanks, Ken

[Santiago]

Does have one heck of a one-piece back, though, particularly striated good for the older Gibsons when that didn't seem to matter as much.

[Michael Gowell]

Ken's offer should reassure you that you have the real deal - he's an expert - and that it's worth investing in a repair by a skilled luthier. One rarely sees an F-4 selling for less than 5 K these days, 6K+ if it has no issues.

[mcloudnine]

Thanks to everyone for all the info on this. It is very interesting to say the least. I'm fascinated by the instrument. As I stated above the only bridge that came with it is a single piece of bone/ivory that is slotted for the strings. Is that possibly original? If not, what type of bridge should it have? I'll be shipping it out this week to get Gruhn's opinion on it and will post his comments once received. Great forum. Thanks again.

[mcloudnine]

Hello all. I just wanted to pass on the info I got from George Gruhn and Walter Carter on this mandolin:

The peghead inlay on this instrument is consistent with 1926-28 inlays, with single flowerpot and The Gibson horizontally across the top peghead rather than at slant. It has no truss rod, as is typical of 1912. The tuners do not have inlaid buttons indicating that they are later than the serial number of this mandolin would indicate. The manner in which the peghead is grafted onto the neck is not consistent with original Gibson work; therefore it is reasonable to assume that the neck was broken and has been repaired. In other respects it conforms to the specifications of the model for the period in which it was made, with scroll body with carved spruce top, oval soundhole, black top finish as is typical of very early F-4s, mahogany neck, maple back and sides with attractive curly grain, and white binding neck and body edges. The hard shell case appears to be original.


That was not a whole lot of help. When I asked about the lack of a truss rod I got this response:

The peghead veneer definitely dates to the truss rod era, but Gibson did not drill out the veneer for the truss rod nut until the veneer was used, so if the neck had no truss rod, the veneer would not have been drilled. A later headstock blank probably would have been routed for the truss rod, so it’s possible that if you took the peghead veneer off, you’d find that routing. I’ve discussed this with George at some length. It’s hard to come up with a scenario for Gibson doing the peghead graft to begin with, since it’s really no more trouble to just put a new neck on. Nevertheless, George has seen a few that were done that way.That’s our best guess.

I also received this information from Ken Waltham of this Forum which I think is the most accurate:

As for the peghead overlay, it is not original to that mandolin, but, is most certainly a Gibson overlay from 1925. That overlay never made it onto an F5, because by 1925 they were using the Fern, and it is different than the 1922-24 flowerpot used on F4's and F5's.
It is completely unique to a 1925 F4.

Thanks again to everyone on this Forum for thier assistance in helping me identify this instrument, Especially to Ken Waltham for his expertise. My plan is to fix the graft as is and see how it plays and sounds.:mandosmiley:

[Jack Roberts]

....Thanks again to everyone on this Forum for thier assistance in helping me identify this instrument, Especially to Ken Waltham for his expertise. My plan is to fix the graft as is and see how it plays and sounds.:mandosmiley:

That's what I would do. I think an F4 like yours is a real find. Even though it's not all original, there are very few that are. Ask whoever repairs the neck will to set up the action and the intonation. It will play better than one in original shape anyway. I have a old gibson that is not in original condition, but because of that I didn't mind having it worked on to really optimize the playability, and everywhere I go it gets admired.

[Tom Glen]

mcloudnine please give us an update on the F4 when you have an opportunity. I feel sure this will be a great mandolin for you.

[Goodin]

The ebay auction has expired...can you post some pics of the mandolin?

[mikie tlizzie]

Would you mind posting the picture again? I can't seem to find it. Thanks

[Bill Snyder]

The OP has not logged in to the forum since September 18. My guess is they came looking for information and won't be back.

[mcloudnine]

Hello again everyone. I wanted to come back to this Forum and thank everyone that had assisted me so much in identifying this instrument when I first acquired it, a year and a half ago, and share the finished product. I sent the mandolin to Cris Mirabella in NY. I’ve known Cris for years and he has done some remarkable restoration work for me in the past and I knew that he would make this mandolin right. After Cris examined the mandolin he advised me that the neck could not be repaired as it was, at least not to where it would be very playable. He developed a brilliant repair plan using the original fingerboard, and the 1925 headstock & tuners and devised a way to repaired it that would be completely unnoticeable. Since this was never going to be an original instrument I took the additional steps of having Cris refret it and with making a new nut & bridge for it. Well, as expected, Cris did not disappoint and did a remarkable job. The mandolin plays great and sounds better than I could have imagined. While I don’t have a lot of experience with mandolin tone it sounds great to my ears. It rings like a bell. I am extremely happy with it. Thanks again to everyone on this Forum that assisted me, most especially Ken Waltham. Ken truly knows his stuff and shared his knowledge with me freely. Well here it is in all its glory, this resurrected 1912 Gibson F-4 mandolin with the 1925 single flowerpot headstock. It does have one of the nicest one piece backs I have ever seen on a mandolin. The pictures really don’t do it justice. Thanks again everyone.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa324/Mcloudnine/Mandolin006.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa324/Mcloudnine/Mandolin007.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa324/Mcloudnine/Mandolin008.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa324/Mcloudnine/Mandolin010.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa324/Mcloudnine/Mandolin011.jpg

[mcloudnine]

Here's a picture of the back

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa324/Mcloudnine/DSCN0451.jpg

[Glassweb]

Excellent job... You should be very pleased with how well that turned out... lovely!

[grassrootphilosopher]

It looks like you have a very nice instrument. Please post a soundclip.

I am partial to that kind of fretboard extention that you have on your Gibson. I know of a blacktop F-2 from around these years that sounds really spectacular. Very strong and very melodic.

[JeffD]

Oh man... oh man... oh mannn....

I am in love.

Remember that scene in The Godfather I, where Michael Corleone first meets Appolonia...

[Jack Roberts]

That is so beautiful. I am in awe.

[F-2 Dave]

Gorgeous, gorgeous mandolin.

[hank]

Man you got it going on now. I'm glad she ended up with someone like you who could bring her back. What a beauty.

[mikie tlizzie]

Wow, that looks really really nice !