pointy vs round picks.

[mandotopia]

I read an interview w/ Chris Thile about his preference for round picks. He prefers them to reduce pick noise. Grisman apparently agrees. I submit that pointy picks (similar to a Pettinne) give a superior tone. To me, the argument in favor of a round pick is analogous to the argument in favor of thin picks rather than heavy picks. Round picks make it easier to play w/ low pick noise but sacrifice a great deal of tone. Thile is clearly a great player but his tone is lacking. (same for Grisman) If used properly, a pointy pick can do everything a round pick can and more just like a heavy pick can do everything a light pick can and more. It seems very few great players use light picks so why do these great players use round picks?

[Jim Broyles]

I frankly don't see how anyone can get any tone out of a rounded pick, but I wouldn't say Thile's and Grisman's tone was lacking. Mind you, I am not as enamored of their tones as some seem to be, and I honestly believe that the emperor needs to be told he has no clothes sometimes, but their mandolins sound good most of the time.

[CES]

Welcome, and ya may wanna duck...I'm not good enough yet to say anyone's tone is lacking...I'm listening to Grisman (Tone Poems) as I write, and just finished listening to the Punch Bros latest offerings...I don't personally have issues with the tone on any of the tracks I've heard tonight.

I think, for the most part, it's about personal preference and what you play best with. I don't yet play with really heavy picks (1.5 or greater) because I feel like I do lose tone as I go heavier. But, I also don't even try to pick mando with anything lighter than 1.0 anymore, because I feel like I also lose tone and speed there (and also get more pick noise). I go through phases where I really prefer a rounder pick, though presently I'm playing a regular shaped Fender Heavy. In a couple of months I'll probably be playing with something else. I think the rounded picks are easier to tremolo, but that's just me. On my mandos I click the fretboard extension pretty much the same regardless which pick I'm using.

I also think tone is a very subjective entity, and your desired tone varies whether you're playing BG, classical, jazz, or whatever else you may play...I tend to play with what feels and sounds good to me, and I don't worry about what Grisman or Thile play, as I'm not anywhere near their level...no issue with your criticizing their tone, but I'd say to play what you like and don't worry about what anyone else is playing with...the same discussion can be had regarding strings, style of mandolin, etc.

[barney 59]

Thile's tone is lacking? Tone? I always felt that that was his strongest suit.
I have played around with round picks a bit lately having to shape them from big fat triangular picks because I haven't found round ones for sale. The reason for this is that I have been having trouble with my thumbs and with the pick turning on me. With a round pick it can go right ahead and turn and I can maintain a lighter grip! I think that everyone finds what works for themselves and there a hundreds of picks to chose from. Some will use heavier picks or shorter picks or pointed or not pointed and they get used to that and that is about all there really is to say about it. Thile likes round? He's a pretty great player so why second guess him? I hope Grisman uses a "Dawg"-

[Chris Biorkman]

Chris Thile uses a pointy pick. I prefer rounded, but can play with both. I think it's just what you're used to.

[Mike Bunting]

It depends on many factors, the mandolin, the strings and how the two work together, the style of music, the tone that you want to get out your axe. If the mando is too bottomy with not much in the way of highs, you may want to use the pointy pick, conversely, if the mando doesn't have to much bottom end and too much high end you may want to use the round pick to compensate. How they handle is also a factor, a pointy pick may hang up on the strings if you should pick too deeply and so slow you down. In short, "Do what thou wilt, under the law."

[Chris Biorkman]

I think Mike is right. My Ellis is a pretty dark sounding mandolin that sounds better to my ears when played with a pointy pick. My Kimble is brighter and I prefer a rounded pick with it.

[John Flynn]

I have tried the very rounded picks, like the Dawgs and the Golden Gates. I feel like they ride over the strings too easily, so it makes me reflexively want to "dig" more to get some "bite," either by attacking the strings harder, or more flat to plane of the string. But if I have a pick with more of a point, not a sharp point, but a very slightly rounded point like you might find on Fender Extra Heavy or Pro-Plec rounded triangles, I get just enough "bite" that I can relax my hand and wrist. But as gets said over and over, it's personal preference. And I really don't care about the personal preferences of big name players, because those are THEIR personal preferences, and I am quite comfortable with mine.

[Jim Ferguson]

I will weigh in on this discussion as probably one of the more neophyte players in the discussion I am sure. Having picked up the mandolin ~5 years ago (after a 35 year hiatus) I experimented with lighter gauge & heavier gauge picks right from the start. It took me all of a couple of sessions plucking around to realize that FOR ME 1) the heavier picks were best, & 2) the rounded picks were best.
Here is why......I am a heavy player whether strumming or picking (although I am much more refined now than earlier on in the relearning process). Soooo.....I have never had an issue with loud enough tone (much to the chagrine of my bandmates....:-) Also......the rounded picks made it easier for me to do tremolo. The sharp picks made tremolo a challenge for me.
Re: Thile & Grisman & tone.......I have listened to both and never thought that either was tone-challenged.
Peace,
Jim

[John McGann]

Thile is clearly a great player but his tone is lacking. (same for Grisman) If used properly, a pointy pick can do everything a round pick can and more just like a heavy pick can do everything a light pick can and more. It seems very few great players use light picks so why do these great players use round picks?

:popcorn:

Lots of Irish players use light picks, lots of classical players use pointy picks- these are different sounds. Personally, I think the sound of someone playing their behind off is what counts, whether point, round or a piece of gravel!

Maybe you should tell Dawg and Chris their tone is lacking :)) Better yet, show 'em how it's done right!

[mandotopia]

Playing with a round pick makes the tone change in a way similer to the change your voice has when you speak into a drinking glass. If/when I get a chance to talk with Thile or Grisman I will have this discussion with them. Many good points have been made about pick type compensating for mandolins w/ boomy base or extremely bright high end. I thought I might be stepping in it when I chose to critique two of the best mando players on the planet. Saying they lack good tone was perhaps poorly worded. What I should have said is I believe their tone would be even better if they put the time into a pointier pick. I acknowledge that personal preference trumps my opinion. Peace

[Chris Biorkman]

Thile plays a pointy pick! The Blue Chip CT 55. Before that, he played a Wegen TF-140, which is also a pointed triangle. There goes that theory.

[Steve L]

I play Irish music and I like a pointed pick but don't like the tone of thin ones. I use the green Dunlop pointed jazz tortex which are .88. They might be considered thin by comparison to some. I've tried using rounded picks and just can't get the triplets to speak the way I need to. It was like trying to play with a baseball. I like the tone I get with the Dunlops.

[Spencer]

Shape isn't the only factor. The pick I like best on my F-hole mandolin is a Wegen MF150, which is pretty round. I have a Golden Gate pick, which is exactly the same thickness (1.5mm) and very close to the same shape, but I do not care at all for the sound with that, as it seems more muffled to my ears. The differences are the material, as the Wegen is stiffer and the beveling, such that the playing edges are different in thickness. What causes what is a good question that somebody else can try to answer. I've found a pick that I like and that's enough for me.

I use a pointed pick on the round hole.

Spencer

[John McGann]

I play Irish music and I like a pointed pick but don't like the tone of thin ones. I use the green Dunlop pointed jazz tortex which are .88. They might be considered thin by comparison to some. I've tried using rounded picks and just can't get the triplets to speak the way I need to. It was like trying to play with a baseball. I like the tone I get with the Dunlops.

Most players feel the same way about getting the triplets 'snappy' with thin picks. Most players are using Irish banjo techniques, and many use the same pick on the single strung banjo as well as mandolin, and play the instruments with the same approach, which evolved around the banjo's instant decay/lack of sustain compared to (modern) mandolins. The right hand does everything, and there is hardly ever any left hand slurring.

The trouble for me is the tone with a lighter pick when I'm NOT playing triplets, which for most tunes would be a very high percentage of the time :cool: so I use a 1.5 and I don't play blazing picked triplets as often as most mandolinists, in favor of other ornamentation techniques. The fiddle style ornaments are more subtle and get swallowed quickly in a session without being mic'ed, so there's always a tradeoff...but a mandolin gets swallowed whole anyway, which is why so many (Irish style) mandolinists play banjo as well!

Seriously, it would be cool to have a pressure activated section of the pick that would shoot a lighter extension out at the moment you want the lighter pick for the triplets...I'm sure top engineers are working with the nanotechnology specifically for this application at this very moment! :)

I use the shoulder ('dumb end') rather than the point. Bigger and fatter tone IMHO.

High cholesterol isn't bad if it's the good kind :mandosmiley:

[AlanN]

Grisman's tone has always been lauded as one of the fattest around. Put on his Quintet record and give a listen. The recording space and set-up surely has a lot to do with it, but ultimately it comes down to pick on string.

Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

[Steve L]

I like a flappier pick (Dunlop nylon .73 or Clayton acetal .50 or .63) for banjo. I can't use them on the mandolin. John's ability to play those other ornaments on the mandolin is really something.

[mandotopia]

My source for the Thile uses a round pick was an article in the Fretboard Journal. He was pretty clear that he, like Grisman, uses a round pick primarily to solve the pick noise problem. Pointy picks do not cause more pick noise than round picks though it seems easier to limit the noise with a round pick. It also seems easier to play fast with a rounded pick. I have played for 30 years and have tried what seems like every material and shape of pick and settled on an enlarged Pettinne shape made of celluloid (cut and filed from a larger guitar pick) and have been happy for about 10 years. I play mostly folk/rock jamband and classical styles. I was trained by Herman von Bernewitz in the orthodox arched wrist classical style and have always applied these techniques to other styles and feel no need to maintain the orthodoxy if it doesn't do the job. The classical mandolin world spends a lot of time on very minute details of pick shape and right hand technique so I have become rather opinionated about these issues. People change picks all the time so maybe the Thile story is old news. I will look into a blue chip pick since so many people seem to like them.

[Bob Stolkin]

For me, it seems to depend on the pick (material, etc.), and probably the mando. I prefer a rounded Blue Chip (TPR50), as the pointy one is too bright for my taste, but I like a more pointed Red Bear, as the rounded ones are too dark for me. Feel-wise, I like the bite I get from the point, but tremolo for me is smoother with the rounded. Always trade-offs!

[Charley wild]

I've spent the last thirty or so years playing with the shoulders of Fender Heavy picks because of a medical problem. Just lately I have tried to use the point some. For some reason I can use the point on a mandolin with no problem. (On a guitar I still can't use the point). I like it a lot! A lot more volume and a LOT more control. It's a real awakening. I just got frustrated with rounded picks. The sound I was getting wasn't consistant. Especially with tremolo. I always thought the rounded edge made tremolo easier. I have no problem doing it with the point. Again, more control. I'm rambling. Anyway you're never to old to change or adapt. I'm a confirmed "point" user from now on!

[Michael Gowell]

Yeah, you did step into it in my opinion. Thiele and Grisman have racked up quite a lot of CDs in their careers. What's your score after 30 years?

[bonny]

Yeah, you did step into it in my opinion. Thiele and Grisman have racked up quite a lot of CDs in their careers. What's your score after 30 years?

Now what does that have to do with anything? Y'know there are a lot of great unrecorded musicians who have opinions every bit as valid as someone who's made lots of records. If everyone who hadn't made as many records as Grisman or Thile kept their mouths shut things would be pretty darned slow at The Cafe......

[jim_n_virginia]

I think it's whatever you get used to too! When I studied with Herschel Sizemore for a while I was VERY surprised he used a VERY thin rounded pick. It was very flexible and yet he could pull tone like nobodies business.

Now I myself have tried to play with rounded off picks and I just can't for the life of me get used to them. I can't even turn the pick sideways and play with the shoulder! I NEED somewhat of a point it doesn't have to be a sharp point but somewhat pointed and I need the pick to be thick to play and I have no trouble doing triplets with a 1.5mm pick.

Like I said it is just what you get used to! :mandosmiley:

[Patrick Bouldin]

This may be oversimplified as I'm not nearly as good as most on here, but personally I use a standard dunlop 1mm. When I'm doing a lot of melody picking I'm pretty close to the pointy edge, as I move into tremelo I seem to naturally rotate the pick almost completely on its side (rounded). For me, I can get much more accurate speed on non-tremelo breakouts with a point. But, I don't hold my pick as recommended by most, so that may affect this somewhat. I hold it where the point is more in parallel to my index finger, and perpendicular to my thumb nail - so my pick is not really "giving" in the back direction much at all. I've tried the recommended route many times, can't get there with any confidence. Finally a private lesson pro said "hey, if this works for you quite banging your head against the wall!"

Patrick
:mandosmiley:

[SincereCorgi]

I had my first lesson with a local bluegrass eminence the other day (sigh... my first step over to the dark side) and this exact topic came up- he suggested that I start using a round pick instead of what I'd brought with me (a Fender heavy). Now, like most of you, I've tried a lot of picks and the one that I've settled on seems pretty good all-around and not too expensive. This gent was emphatic, though, that the bluegrass mandolin sound is better achieved with a round pick.

Anyway, what clinched it for me he then borrowed my Fender heavy to demonstrate and played a lick on his mandolin, then played the same lick with his own pick. To my ears, the pointy Fender heavy won hands down- I thought it made his mandolin sound great, ringing and clear. His round pick tone, however, was very 'Grismatic', which is nuanced and dull (not perjoratively 'dull') and sort of sneaky- it really slaps the accents and retreats to almost nothing for the other notes.

I don't know what to make of this. This guy has years of experience on me and knows bluegrass inside and out, so I've been thinking that maybe there's some nuance that's escaping me. Just my ¢2.

-Trevor

[John McGann]

The OP states that Pettine style picks give a "superior tone". That is a perfectly valid opinion, in that it is merely an opinion; one shared by many folks coming from the classical mandolin world. Many non-classical players would disagree heartily with this opinion.

As far as tone production goes, the chain ABOVE the pick (hand, wrist, arm position, elbow, shoulder, heart, soul and brain) as well as below (instrument, string choice, setup etc.) has an awful lot to do with how the music is going to sound. The pick choice is important, but in many ways the least of the problem.

[mandocrucian]

pointy vs round picks?

Why is it always either/or?

Since you can obtain a somewhat different sound between pointy and rounded, (and between thick and thin), having both in hand seems to be (at least to me, anyway) the best option.

That's why I use the big rounded trangular Fenders (xh). I leave one point as it is (XH pointed), I take a file and round off the second point (XH rounded), and the third point is left pointy but is thinned down with sandpaper to a medium thickness (M pointed). Now I have a three-in-one pick, my own personal plastic tone-knob which I can rotate in my hand to choose from a wider palette of sonic options. (I can also use some of my right hand fingers to pluck the strings)

And as John McG aptly says above, the pick is only one aspect of tone production. (and don't also make the mistake of thinking that every one of those aspects devolves to a single either/or choice as well).
NH

[Will Patton]

Interesting thread - I can bore folks for hours on my pick selection!
I use a rounded over triangle pick -used to be a turtle - on some jazz and ballads - a pointy tortoise shell for faster gypsy tunes... a small very thick bone pick for choros and intricate stuff. And for fiddle tunes, I've been favoring a solid silver pick I bought in Santa Fe - no kidding - it really articulates. This is all subject to change at a moment's notice.
John, do let me know when they go into production on the pick extension- thingey.
best, Will

[mandotopia]

I guess we can settle this with the answer to one question.
What did Bill Monroe use? :))

[woodwizard]

Sense we're going on opinions ... mine is to my ears that I get much better tone with a rounded pick. I use a TPR60 BC ... I get a bigger & fatter tone with rounded vs: the pointed picks which always sound too thin and tinty to me. I think one should use a pick whatever the shape that sounds good to their ears.

[JeffD]

Now I have a three-in-one pick, my own personal plastic tone-knob which I can rotate in my hand to choose from a wider palette of sonic options.


:)) That is great.

[RobP]

I'm with Niles

I used to use the large 1.14mm Dunlop Ultex triangles. Then I had a lesson with Reishman at a festival, and he suggested rounding one of the points. I did that, used that pick exclusively for a long time (I managed not to lose it in 2 yrs.. amazing!). I liked the tone better, but for me it does take more effort to get volume with a rounded pick. Then I discovered the Fender Extra Heavy triangles at a music store. The points on those are less pronounced than on the Ultex pics. These Fenders are now my fav. Some of them I have rounded one of the points a bit more to give me some different options (for tremolos for instance).

Regards,

Rob

[Alex Orr]

I use a Wegman MF-1.15. I LOVE it!!!! Seriously, pointy picks are honestly dificult for me to use anymore on a mandolin. Much easier to play tremolo with a rounded edge.

[Roger Kunkel]

I recently picked up a Blue Chip that is triangular with two pointy and one rounded. Very handy. Apply the most effective point as needed.

[CES]

I guess we can settle this with the answer to one question.
What did Bill Monroe use? :))

Whatever he could get his hands on at the time :))

Seriously, I really have no issue with you stepping on toes, as long as you're wearing boots big enough to do the stepping! We tend to get caught up in thinking these guys (insert famous mando player here) are perfect, and they're not...pretty darn close sometimes, but not perfect. In the remembering Monroe thread there are a couple of posts already suggesting that if you don't love his music, you just "don't get it." I do like his music, but there really are some who don't, simply because they don't, and that's OK. Same for Thile, Grisman, Bush, etc. If we all liked everything...well, as long as boy bands are around that won't be an issue...diversity is what keeps things interesting as long as folks don't get nasty about it.

Niles, I'm laughing, but only because I've been close to doing the same thing and have just been too lazy (instead just carry a couple different picks)!! I'm imagining myself debating the merits of Dremel vs hand filing...

:mandosmiley:

[John McGann]

I guess we can settle this with the answer to one question.
What did Bill Monroe use? :))

Good point (no pun intended)- he used whatever and always sounded great!

Maybe he'd tell us all to "shut up and start playin'!" :mandosmiley::mandosmiley:

[Capt. E]

I recently picked up a Blue Chip that is triangular with two pointy and one rounded. Very handy. Apply the most effective point as needed.

That's the one I prefer as well. I think it is the 1R...comes in different weights, I have a 35 and a 40. Both are good, but I tend to prefer the 35.

[Dfyngravity]

When was Thile quoted saying he uses rounded picks? As far as I know he is using a triangle shaped Blue Chip pick. I think he has used a triangle pick for quite some time now. About 3 years ago I saw him and talked to him about his set up and various other topics, but he said then he was still using a triangle shaped pick which he showed me and it's what he had been using for a while. But I wouldn't consider his pick to be rounded at all.

Anyways, to me it depends on your pick stroke. If you strike the strings at an angle and or pick softly, a pointed pick is probably your best bet. But if your pick does not hit the string with much of an angle and or you hit the strings fairly hard, you might benefit from a rounded pick. Music style like mentioned before also call for different picks too.

[Ken_P]

I'm incredibly particular about the point of my picks, I can't have it go too much in either direction. I hate when it's too pointy, the tone just becomes shrill to my ears. Too round, and I loose too much brightness and I can't control it as well. I'm using the Blue Chip Chris Thile model (CT55), but I had to dull the points a bit to get the tone and feel I want out of it.

[epicentre]

:grin: D'Andrea PRO PLEC 1.5mm. but:

"As far as tone production goes, the chain ABOVE the pick (hand, wrist, arm position, elbow, shoulder, heart, soul and brain) as well as below (instrument, string choice, setup etc.) has an awful lot to do with how the music is going to sound. The pick choice is important, but in many ways the least of the problem."

What he said......very very least of my problem anyway. merci mr. McGann.

[300win]

pointy picks = pointy tone, no question, end of story.

[Paul Kotapish]

pointy picks = pointy tone, no question, end of story.

Sir, some of us prefer to think of it as tone with a point, rather than pointy tone. For us, using a perfectly round pick is . . . pointless.

Me, I like an every so slightly rounded point on a fairly fat pick. To my ear, and for my playing, that achieves the best compromise between a fat, warm tone and clear articulation. The big triangular Wegen TF 140s are just about pefect.

I know Dawg gets fabulous tone with a round pick, but many other players--me included--tend to sound muddy and indistinct when using a round, pointless pick. Hurrah for those who succeed.

[MrFantasy]

Chris Thile and David Grisman were lacking in tone?? What Universe are you from?

[John McGann]

Chris Thile and David Grisman were lacking in tone?? What Universe are you from?

It would be great for the OP to tell us what players aren't lacking in tone, if Chris and Dawg are...

[250sc]

OP stirred the pot than left the room.

[300win]

Sir, some of us prefer to think of it as tone with a point, rather than pointy tone. For us, using a perfectly round pick is . . . pointless.

Me, I like an every so slightly rounded point on a fairly fat pick. To my ear, and for my playing, that achieves the best compromise between a fat, warm tone and clear articulation. The big triangular Wegen TF 140s are just about pefect.

I know Dawg gets fabulous tone with a round pick, but many other players--me included--tend to sound muddy and indistinct when using a round, pointless pick. Hurrah for those who succeed.

What I was meaning by what I said, if you use a thin or thick extreme sharp pointed pick, the tone will suffer. I use a Blue Chip 50 that has " very much rounded" points, not a round pick. To me if you use a very sharp pointed pick the tone will sound shrill and tinny no matter how good a mandolin you have.

[mandotopia]

Marylin Mair and Andy Statman are two players that come to mind that I believe generate exemplary tone from their instruments. Dave Appalon was an extremely clean player but recording technonogy at the time makes it difficult to have a serious opinion about his tone but I suspect his pick was on the pointy side. There are more obscure and unrecorded musicians who have admirable tone in my opinion. Dave Evans from the Baltimore Mandolin Orchestra is one of those. Norman Blake and company sounded great on the Underground Music from the Mysterious South album. If I were to guess, I would guess Blake uses a pointy guitar pick on that recording. Because this discussion has had so many posts I will reanswer a couple of questions. My source for Thile uses a round pick was an interview from the Summer 2008 issue of the Fretboard Journal. The cover Shows Thile with a white round pick in his hand.Grisman does the interview. I did not purchase the magazine or I would post the exact quote. At that time they both agreed and could not understand why anyone would use a pointy pick. Hence my response. Several people have since pointed out that Thile currently uses a pointy Blue Chip. So, Thile has come around to my point of view. Punny huh.

[John McGann]

Andy doesn't use a pointy pick...and there's a big difference between a Pettine pick and a Blue Chip, there aren't within a mile of each other tonewise...

[Steve L]

What I was meaning by what I said, if you use a thin or thick extreme sharp pointed pick, the tone will suffer. I use a Blue Chip 50 that has " very much rounded" points, not a round pick. To me if you use a very sharp pointed pick the tone will sound shrill and tinny no matter how good a mandolin you have.

In your hands, perhaps so.

[mandotopia]

What does Andy Statman use? A Pettine is rather pointy, the one I use is similar to a Pettine but slightly larger and slightly less pointy but still more like a Pettine than any other pick. I am not saying the pointier the better. I am saying that if used properly, a pointy pick can do almost everything a round pick can do but a round pick cannot do almost everything a pointy pick can do. There are certain tonal extremes that only a round or pointy pick can achieve but for overall tonal versatility, a pointy pick is more versatile. If one wants to alleviate the shrillness associated with pointy picks then the the string must be plucked in such a way that the string vibrates more vertical to the top. Developing a good rest stroke facilitates this. Equally important is the pick cannot be held too tight. People tend to hold picks too tight and this makes pointy picks especially shrill sounding. The nice thing about the shape of the Pettine is that the non pointy end is narrower than most mando picks ( like a gibson heavy, or most of the Bluechips I saw on the web site) and it tucks nicely into the fold of the index finger allowing it to be held more loosely without dropping it. To really get good tone from a pointy pick (or any pick I assume) is to follow the advice of my late great teacher Herman von Bernewitz who said "You must caress the string rather than pick it". If the Blue chip material is as good as people say, than perhaps they will make a Pettine shaped version. I'm sure there is a market for it.

[300win]

In your hands, perhaps so.

I stand by what I said. In my 44 + years of playing on mandolins from what I've heard and seen. extreme pointy picks produces a thin shallow tone regardless of the mandolin, or the player, each and every time, period !

[fishtownmike]

I use the large triangle dunlop ultex picks in a 1.14 gauge. I use these for guitar and mandolin. I found this is a pick that I'm comfortable with and has great tone compared to standard picks. I tend to vary my picking technique as i play. I will extend the index or curl it up and lighten or tighten my grip to vary tones. I have tried the rounded pick like the Dawgs and just not happy with them....Mike
http://www.jimdunlop.com/files/1153434658_ULTEX%20TRI%20NO_426_GRP_463X342.jpg

[Steve L]

I stand by what I said. In my 44 + years of playing on mandolins from what I've heard and seen. extreme pointy picks produces a thin shallow tone regardless of the mandolin, or the player, each and every time, period !

Nonsense.

[Chris Biorkman]

This has to be the silliest argument I've ever seen on this board. Fighting over pick shape? Wow.

[Steve L]

This has to be the silliest argument I've ever seen on this board. Fighting over pick shape? Wow.

You should see the capo threads!:))

[300win]

You should see the capo threads!:))

Nonsense.

[John McGann]

What does Andy Statman use?

Last I looked, a Fender heavy.


If one wants to alleviate the shrillness associated with pointy picks then the the string must be plucked in such a way that the string vibrates more vertical to the top. Developing a good rest stroke facilitates this.

In my experience, the rest stroke makes the strings vibrate in a nice circular pattern, rather than the vertical movement that a free stroke generates. The rest stroke is undoubtedly fatter and warmer...

[Jim Broyles]

I use the large triangle dunlop ultex picks in a 1.14 gauge. I use these for guitar and mandolin. I found this is a pick that I'm comfortable with and has great tone compared to standard picks. I tend to vary my picking technique as i play. I will extend the index or curl it up and lighten or tighten my grip to vary tones. I have tried the rounded pick like the Dawgs and just not happy with them....Mike
http://www.jimdunlop.com/files/1153434658_ULTEX%20TRI%20NO_426_GRP_463X342.jpg

I use the 1.14 triangles for mandolin and the 1.00 for strumming on acoustic guitar. The 351 shape 1.00s sound good on electric but tend to go with a celluloid heavy 351 for electric guitar. I like the Jazz III's for jazz on flatwound 11's for my semi-hollow guitar, an Ibanez Artcore. The ultex material just produces such a nice tone on strings, to my ear.

[Glassweb]

[QUOTE=John McGann;712957]Last I looked, a Fender heavy.

Andy has used Fender X-tra heavy for years, but I recently got him some Red Bear and BlueChip picks of the same shape and gauge to try. Not sure which one he's "connected" with at this point. In any case, Andy, who has fantastic control of his tone (maybe the most beautiful double stop tremelo in the biz) used (gasp!) those pointy end Fender picks for years...

[Rob Gerety]

I pick up whatever is laying around on my table or in my pocket and make the best of it. Usually it a fender heavy, martin heavy or Blue Chip medium. I'm beginning to notice that I tend to go with something more muted when my strings are band new and something brighter when my new strings have reached middle age.

[David Thompson]

I used to use the stiffest thickest rounded picks I could find , had been on a shell pick for years then I had to reset the neck on my old mandolin ,
sine most of my playing was nowadays in front of a mike I used a dgree or so less neck angle and now the stiff picks just dont work for me any more, I guess less neck angle , less string pressure a more flexible is giving me a much better sound now than the heavy picks and now I dont have to pound the mando so hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRyxlhOIV7M

[Charley wild]

[QUOTE=John McGann;712957]Last I looked, a Fender heavy.

Andy has used Fender X-tra heavy for years, but I recently got him some Red Bear and BlueChip picks of the same shape and gauge to try. Not sure which one he's "connected" with at this point. In any case, Andy, who has fantastic control of his tone (maybe the most beautiful double stop tremelo in the biz) used (gasp!) those pointy end Fender picks for years...

Andy is not only a great player but has excellent taste in picks!:grin:

[SincereCorgi]

Last I looked, a Fender heavy.

Wait, so is a Fender heavy (or extra heavy) considered to be a rounder pick, then? Man, maybe I'm not in the pointy pick camp after all. I thought a round pick would be like a Golden Gate or a Dawg, which I can't get to work on the higher strings at all. If Thile and Marshall use those big triangular ones and Statman uses a Fender shape, I'll consider myself in excellent company and never worry about roundness envy again.

[Rob Fowler]

In response to the OP's statement about Thile using a round pick in the Fretboard Journal article. Here's Grisman and Thile's quotes from the interview:

Dawg said that he has always tried to mellow out the treble on the mandolin.

CT: Right, your Dawg picks do that to the sound. I remember the first time I used your pick, I realized, wait that's part of the sound I love.

Dawg: And a lot of people think it sounds dead, but I find that with a point on a pick you get more click and brightness. It's adding another element.

CT: It is. On a pointed pick, you're going to hear more pick and less mandolin. It's funny, I eventually went from the Dawg pick to something with a little more point, but still not like a Fender Heavy kind of a point or anything like that. I think ultimately I just don't have a terribly powerful arm......

On the cover it looks like Thile was playing with his past-favored pick, the Wegen TF140; there's also a picture of him in the interview with his loar and it looked like the same pick.

Just wanted to clear up this little-important misunderstanding.....:grin:

[mandotopia]

Mr. Fowler, thanks for finding the original article. Thile and Grisman are a little less strident in their advocacy of round picks than my fading memory captured. I disagree with Grisman that pick noise is a necessary byproduct of a pointy pick.




In my experience, the rest stroke makes the strings vibrate in a nice circular pattern, rather than the vertical movement that a free stroke generates. The rest stroke is undoubtedly fatter and warmer...

Do you mean vertical to the top or the ground? I just assumed the freestroke made the string vibrate horizontal to the top and a rest stroke was more vertical. I did not consider that the warm fat tone of the rest stroke was because of circularity rather than verticality.

What is pointy? I fender heavy is in my opinion about the middle between pointy and round. The Pettine picks are pointy but I doubt many players have ever seen one. I have never seen one in a instrument store and usually bought mine when visiting Providence Mandolin Orchestra territory. I stocked up. Someone up there is/was the source. They are a little small so I made (cut and filed) a slightly bigger one from a guitar pick. Because these picks are not widely distributed, they have not been widely tried. It is entirely possible that Thile has never run across one.

So much of what one believes is a good tone is esthetic. I, for example do not desire the woody bark of a Loar. I once had a conversation with the late great luthier John Zeidler about this very topic when I was considering purchasing one of his Mandolins. He said he was not trying to recreate a Loar but was after a more of a bell like tone. I had a chance to play one a fellow mando player had at a Winterhawk festival in the late 80's. It was beautiful sounding but not Loar like. (alas I could not afford an mere $3k in the 1980's. Hindsight...) This is analogous to pick shape. It really depends on what sound you are after. But know this. Pointy picks do not necessarily have too much pick noise and sound shrill. It takes a considerable amount of time using a pointy pick to overcome these tendencies but once mastered, a pointy pick has clear advantages in articulation and clarity of tone IMHO (If that is the sound you want). I think a player as great as Thile could prove me right (If he chose to put in the time to master a pointy pick) and bring forth an era where pointy picks are accepted beyond the classical world. Me, I am just a mando nobody with good tone and a strong opinion. ,

[John McGann]

The free stroke, to my ears and eyes, makes the string vibrate vertically in orientation to the top, rather than the spinning vibration seen by the rest stroke. This is easy to see and hear.

Pointy picks make less contact with the string and tend to not draw out the deeper tones of the instrument, but emphasize the high end- to me, the mandolin has plenty of high end in general. I've always felt that the thicker picks maximize volume and range of tone, and allowed me better access to a wider range of tones. For me, a standard guitar pick played with the "dumb end" rather than the point has yielded the results I want to hear- that the pick acts more like a violin bow, drawing/coaxing sound from the string at a slight angle, rather than (as ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons would say) "spankin' the plank!"

The Pettine pick, to my knowledge, was not designed for F style mandolins, but roundback style instruments and maybe the Lyon and Healy type instruments, which produce an entirely different kind of sound. I also acquired a few via the Providence Mandolin Orchestra back in the early 80's.

Many contemporary classical mandolinists, especially in Europe, now use Pettine shaped picks made of rubber of varying densities. This cures the shrill brightness of pointy plastic and provides a richer, darker tone that I prefer to hear. My friend Annika Lückebergfeld turned me on to them. They seem to work better (to my ears) on the roundback instruments.

I know a little about John Zeidler (http://www.johnmcgann.com/zeidler.html) as we were best friends from '75 to '02 when he passed away, and I have only played his mandolins (except for a starter Harmony that John revoiced and refinished) my entire life. It's very true that John felt that the best instruments "had yet to be built", and that he did not view Martin or Gibson as being the ultimate instruments- often great, but he was searching for something else.

Being different can be a blessing or a curse. People often settle on an 'ultimate sound' exemplified by existing instruments, and their ears become attenuated to that sound, and anything else can be substandard in contrast. It's hard to sell someone on new sounds if they are convinced the ultimate has already been achieved (you know, how all the great orchestral music has already been written by dead white guys).

I love what John achieved in 99% of his work, and have never lusted after Loars (although I've played a bunch of them). They are awesome instruments, of course, but I feel I've developed (if I can be so pompous as to say) "my sound" FWIW around the Zeidler.

With the 'dumb end' of the pick, of course. If my tone is 'lacking' in any way close to Dawg and Chris, I'm a happy camper! :mandosmiley:

[Steve L]

With many of the Irish players you might hear, there can be a thinness of tone due to using thin pointed picks as John mentioned earlier. My own learning curve (In no way remotely comparable with John's) has led to to using a much thicker pick than most Irish players and a much pointier pick than bluegrass based players will use. For me, it's a good compromise. The instrument functions in my music differently from Bluegrass. I found in my own playing that thin tone had more to do with the density of the pick than the point but the idiomatic sound I'm after is inherently different from the bluegrass derived tone.

What rankled me in this thread were the dogmatic, parochial assertions that owing to my choice of plectra that (a) I can't possibly sound good, and (b) I'm too obtuse to realize this. It's vaguely insulting. If I had read this stuff on a bright sunny day, I probably would have shrugged it off but it was a lousy day, I was in a bad mood and it bugged me.

I think for many people, the Monroe based sound is the sine qua non of mandolin tone in the way that for years the fat warm Charlie Christian based guitar tone was the standard for electric guitars. There are more colors in the paint box and a lot of subjectivity on which to use and how to use them. Taste, skill, and context surely count for something.

[Fretbear]

If you can play like either CT or Dawg, then it wouldn't really matter to you what type of picks they use or what shape they happened to be, as you would have already made your own decisions and choices. For us mere mortals, we have to get on with the business of doing the best we can with the materials we find at hand. The Dawg pick would my first choice for a manhole cover or a replacement ceramic floor tile. For mandolin playing, I have no idea how he gets his tone (which is amongst the finest you will hear anywhere) with that thing. To say that a pointed pick will always sound thin is just not so; the tone it will produce has at least as much to do with the material that the pick is made of and how it comes to it's edge, as the shape of it's tip will. I have found that a "blunt" edge on a broadly pointed pick gives entirely different results than a beveled edge on the same thickness and shape of pick. People should be aware that they don't have to limit themselves to what is sold "off the shelf" in their choices of picks or strings in their quest for their tone, or think that just because someone else uses it, even if they are your musical ideal, that it must be good for you as well. Your tone is everything, as it is the very heart of the sound that you are producing.

[Don Whitener]

Many contemporary classical mandolinists, especially in Europe, now use Pettine shaped picks made of rubber of varying densities. This cures the shrill brightness of pointy plastic and provides a richer, darker tone that I prefer to hear. My friend Annika Lückebergfeld turned me on to them. They seem to work better (to my ears) on the roundback instruments.

Can you cite a source for these picks?

[Charley wild]

I agree with SteveL and Fretbear. I love to jive Jim in VA and JeffD about Blue Chips picks. But it's done good fun. I think they realize that. It's everybody's own choice what they use. I respect those choices. If you're happy with the type pick you are using far be it from me to tell you that you're wrong.
And Fretbear is right IMHO. I mentioned that I had just come around to using the point of a pick and I have seen no problem with my tone being thinner. I can move the point to slightly different angles to suit what I'm playing (tremolo, etc.) just like I could with the rounded edge. I just feel I have more control and my sound is cleaner and less muffled. What the various pro's cited above do is fine for them but it may not be for me or you. As FB stated, remember, it's you doing the playing!

[John McGann]

Can you cite a source for these picks?

Annika brought some over for me from Germany, but I don't know how easy they are to find (here or there!)

[John McGann]

It's everybody's own choice what they use. I respect those choices. If you're happy with the type pick you are using far be it from me to tell you that you're wrong.


The only wrong choice is one that doesn't work for you, I think...

[Rob Gerety]

What rankled me in this thread were the dogmatic, parochial assertions that owing to my choice of plectra that (a) I can't possibly sound good, and (b) I'm too obtuse to realize this. It's vaguely insulting.

I don't blame you for being rankled.

[Paul Kotapish]

This thread has developed a little bit of that "dancing-about-architecture" awkwardness.

It's almost impossible to conduct a meaningful conversation about tone and its variants without the sonic information on actual instruments with actual picks and strings to illustrate what we mean when we talk about tone.

What might sound "crystaline and silver" to some will be characterized as "thin and tinny" by others, while "fat and warm" might be "muddy and flat" to others still.

I read once that Hugo D'Alton--the great English classical mandolinist--thought that Lloyd Loar's F-5 design was an abomination and that its characteristic tone was completely inappropriate for "authentic" mandolin music, despite the fact that Load had, in fact, designed it primarily for classical music.

His fundamental ideal for mandolin tone was very different from the ideal that many of us have been shooting for in the post-Dawg-influence era.

Those kind of differences can lead to some significant misunderstandings, frustration, and hurt feelings.

Me, I like all the variety, and I think it would be a big loss if everyone was shooting for a uniform ideal sound. Like John said, "the only wrong choice is one that doesn't work for you . . . "

[Don Stiernberg]

A couple months back I had the pleasure of playing a few tunes with five-string banjo genius Yens Krueger. On pretty tunes his banjo sung, seemingly sustaining longer than a Les Paul,with vocal-type vibrato even. On the hard grass he had the bite and drive expected by the hard-core purists of that genre. Along the way there were many other perfect choices of touch and tone. Did he changes banjos, or picks? No.
Someone even commented, "Man, what kind of banjo is that? It sounds so beautiful! " I pointed to Yens's hands, then his brain, then his heart. "Here's your sound" I said.

One time Dawg came to town. I thought I was having a problem with a mandolin. He graciously offered to look at it and see if it was set up wrong or something.We went into a tune and I stopped him in the middle of an improvised chorus, saying "OK, man, I see---nothing at all wrong with the mandolin!" He was peeling the paint from my living room wall--tone for days.

Dan Crary came in once for a Taylor guitar workshop. Among many other golden observations was.."There are tons of great guitars nowadays--Martin, Bourguois, Collings, etc.. THE ONE YOU SPEND THE MOST TIME WITH IS THE ONE THAT WILL SOUND BEST...

Did Wes Montgomery produce a beautiful sound?Most say yes, still unsurpassed 40 years after his death. HE USED NO PICK AT ALL.

These anecdotes are offered in the spirit of remembering that what we really like to hear are notes, ideas, and the soul of the instrumentalist, as opposed to picks,string guages, or other technology. Young or new players, strive for clean and full tone regardless of your setup, equipment, or the opinions of stylists and manufacturers. You can do it! Sure, everything matters---nylon sounds different from bone or plastic, etc. The great players transcend all that. Hand David Grisman a $35 mandolin and a quarter for a pick, ask him to play a tune....you would know instantly that it was him. It would sound GOOD! So good...

Another time Andy Statman appeared as a guest of Bela Fleck, in an outdoor venue where the sound was a challenge. Surrounded by amplifiers and synthesizers in a boomy hall, Andy played into an SM57. Every note seemed carved out and hand delivered to this listener. Were we hearing
the mandolin? The pick? The mic? No, we were hearing the Notes, the Music, his ideas and his intent.

I'm realizing now that I have several favorite mandolin players and no two of them use the same pick.

OK, cats, sorry to go off like this. Now back to the notes..

[Caleb]

I have several picks that I regularly play with (Golden Gate, JazzMando 1.50, et al) but I mostly use the rounded edge of a Fender heavy. On most things it just sounds better to me. I like the JazzMando pick for some tunes, and I find that at times when I sit down to play I want that rounded, fatter tone, so I reach for the JazzMando pick. But the Fender sees the most use for some reason. It has a bright sound that I love, and it's rounded edge, or "shoulder," seems perfect for what I do (which isn't much!).

I've seen great players use the rounded edge (Tim O'Brien) and one of the best mandolin tones I've ever heard was from Butch Baldassari, who used the pointy end. As far as I'm concerned, tone and technique don't get much better than what Butch did. I still think he had about the best tremolo technique as well, and somehow he did it with the pointy end of the pick! I've tried and it's like walking on stilts or something. I just can't get the pick to glide at all with the pointy end.

And as far as Dawg's and Thile's tone, I like them as well. I don't care what kind of instrument they use or what kind of pick, etc. I just like to hear the music they make.

[AlanN]

And as far as Dawg's and Thile's tone, I don't care what kind of instrument they use or what kind of pick, etc. I just like to hear the music they make.

As the ladies call out at church....BINGO!

[Ronnie L]

When I started out playing Mando I used Pointy picks but hated the thin clicky sound so I started using Golden Gate then Dawg picks.Both of which I had to import into the UK from America. I still use them for folky and old time styles but for 'Grass I trim the sides off the Dawgs. They Still have the tone but I can get more definition.

http://www.ronworld.f9.co.uk/Dawpk.jpg

[woodwizard]

The only wrong choice is one that doesn't work for you, I think...

Now that ... I will for sure agree with. :mandosmiley:

[AlanN]

Wow, that Dawg looks like a shaved poodle!

Just picked up a BC Jazz 50. Talk about a small pick, it is a pronounced teardrop shape down to a small point. I'll try the shoulder.

[fishtownmike]

I have been experimenting with a reshaped dunlop ultex triangle pick i cut and filed down. I have to give it a while before i can decide if I like it. I really like the ultex material sound.

[AlanN]

Well, have had a few days with the Blue Chip Jazz 50. Using the shoulder, I love it. I bought 2 other BCs before this, a 50 and a 60. They stay in the pick pouch.

I wrote to Matt, the BC guy, seeing if he can customize a Jazz 50 to the shape of my fave.

[Mark Marino]

I recently tried these really odd looking round picks- kinda like a small frisbee. Met the company owner at a festival and was given a few. They are pretty good- ridged pocket in the middle so it's almost hard to drop them- and tremelo worked out really well. Best of all, they are about a buck a piece. Would be nice if they were harder material- maybe they'll look into that down the road.

Check them out- http://www.pointlesspicks.com/

[Chunky But Funky]

Seriously, it would be cool to have a pressure activated section of the pick that would shoot a lighter extension out at the moment you want the lighter pick for the triplets...I'm sure top engineers are working with the nanotechnology specifically for this application at this very moment! :)


Isn't that why they invented these: Dava Control Pick (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Dava-Control-Guitar-Pick-110700-i1123798.gc)

Pretty cheap as far as mando pick experimentation goes! :mandosmiley:
(I couldn't get the companies site to load, so I had to use GC)

Doug

[JeffD]

As far as I'm concerned, tone and technique don't get much better than what Butch did. I still think he had about the best tremolo technique as well, and somehow he did it with the pointy end of the pick! .

His is the tone and tremolo I strive for.

[Caleb]

His is the tone and tremolo I strive for.Same here. I still watch his instructional tapes just to hear the mandolin. Often times I don't even have my mandolin out of the case; I just watch him do his thing. He was truly a master of the instrument.

[pickinpete]

Just a few quick statements of mine own opinion that popped into mine head while reading this thread. First on tone..Ive always found that the thinner the pick the thinner the tone, the fatter the pick, the fatter the tone. Secondly on thile, I have the video he made at 15? and he is using a pointy pick, I also know the blue chip chris thile is pointy. I havent read the afore mentioned article but the pronouncement that he uses a round pick is news to me, maybe he switched to a round pick for 5 minutes around that time and switched back, I dont know. I started on dawg pick, golden gate round ones and then tried clayton triangles and found I didnt have to work as hard for the notes. Now I am a sworn wegen user (TF-180 no holes) made just for me and I have no interest in trying anything else.

Ps. No snobbery or down nose looking was used in this post. All opinions are sole property of the poster and are not neccasarily those of the mandolin cafe.