Deception?

[walt33]

Early last year, I went to a local, well-stocked folk music store to "look" at mandolins. The salesman said, "this one just came in as a trade-in." A Kentucky KM162. Now, I had never even held a mando before, so he tuned it up (to itself, without using a tuner) and played a little. Sounded great. Sounded better than any of the other half dozen he demo'd for me. So I bought it.

After a day or two of happily noodling with it at home, I thought I ought to check it with a tuner. Turned out to be tuned low, and when I brought it up to pitch, well it didn't sound very great anymore. Kinda tinny and tight. I'm still trying not to not like it.

A while later, I was in another local store looking at fiddles. Guy took one off the wall, plucked a G string on a random guitar, and tuned it up. Sounded good. But this time I had brought a tuner with me, and guess what, the fiddle was flat too, and didn't sound so good when I brought it up to pitch. But at least I didn't buy it.

Is this a common music store scam, tuning instruments low so they sound better to newbs? Just wondering. Maybe not.

We won't even get into how much the store charged me for that used mando and a junky gig bag. :mad: Caveat emptor and all that.

Walt

[MikeEdgerton]

It's common in the guitar business. Tune a dreadnought down a step or so and you get some real bass.

[testore]

NOT in the violin world. A good and well set up violin always sounds better at the proper pitch. Since all violinists are interested in power that always helps increase the illusion of reaching the corners of a hall.

[Jim Broyles]

Hey, I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, but I seriously doubt that every inexpensive instrument even actually sounds better tuned flat, or that shop owners would deliberately tune instruments flat in the hope that it may sound better than standard to a newb. Fact is, when I was a newb to the mandolin, I still knew what constituted good musical tone and what did not and I would not have been fooled by a flat tuned mandolin. I mean, the instrument is supposed to be tuned to standard pitch, right? Eventually someone might catch on. Is your 162 set up properly and is the intonation correct? Those mandolins, although inexpensive, have gotten good reviews on the Cafe, so maybe a good set up and new strings will get back the tone you heard before.

[jim_n_virginia]

Maybe some music stores keep instruments tuned low to save stress on the bridge and neck. I could see this especially if the store, like a lot do now a days, stock cheaper import instruments.

I wouldn't neccesarily jump to deception.

There are store owners on the Cafe so maybe they will shed some light.

[Charley wild]

I don't know how common it is but it certainly isn't the first time I've heard about it. I worked in an acoustic guitar store back when and we used to keep them tuned a half step flat but we always tuned them up to demonstrate them. Every store around did it. The theory was to keep some tension off the neck. It was nothing we tried to hide from the customer. Not saying that it isn't done for less than honest reasons but we didn't.

[Mike Bunting]

My local store, The Acoustic Music Shop in Edmonton, has a tuner the size of a wall clock, on the wall in the acoustic instrument room. Very handy for the staff who keep hings tuned up but a good sign for the customer too.

[jim_n_virginia]

My local store, The Acoustic Music Shop in Edmonton, has a tuner the size of a wall clock, on the wall in the acoustic instrument room. Very handy for the staff who keep hings tuned up but a good sign for the customer too.


Hey I would like to get a big wall tuner like that would you happen to know what company makes it?

I don't know what a "hing" is BUT I want one! LOL! :))

[Bob DeVellis]

I've run into this, too. I think the incentive may be that a lower-pitched instrument is easier for a beginner to play. A new player will often be turned off by the force it takes to fret a properly-tuned instrument, especially a mandolin. This isn't as likely on better instruments that will attract more experienced players, and certainly, not every dealer does this sort of thing.

A local shop had a sort of tuning fork thing that was the size of a wall clock. It was a resonating box with a large tuning fork incorporated. The resonant chamber gave it both volume and sustain, so that a whole roomful of musicians could herar the thing and tune to it. Very cool, actually.

[Tim2723]

Walt, I have worked in three small music shops in my life. They all tuned their instruments a half step or so low, as the others have said and for the same reasons. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd fully tune eight strings after demonstrating six other instruments. Especially not a used instrument that sells for around $250 new for someone who admits to only be 'looking'. Not exactly the best of salesmanship, but hardly a conspiracy against you or anyone else.

You failed to mention what happened when you returned the instrument and complained about it.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

think about it. if you owned/ran a music store and had all those instruments to keep in tune to accurate concert pitch, could you, or would you? i think most store owners presently are maxed enough just trying to keep the bills paid and the doors open.

[acousticnotes]

I've run into this, too. I think the incentive may be that a lower-pitched instrument is easier for a beginner to play. A new player will often be turned off by the force it takes to fret a properly-tuned instrument, especially a mandolin. This isn't as likely on better instruments that will attract more experienced players, and certainly, not every dealer does this sort of thing.

A local shop had a sort of tuning fork thing that was the size of a wall clock. It was a resonating box with a large tuning fork incorporated. The resonant chamber gave it both volume and sustain, so that a whole roomful of musicians could herar the thing and tune to it. Very cool, actually.

I think you nail it Bob. Lower pitch lower action and playability. Sales is the name of the game. Same as Taylor guitar using coated strings. They just feel better to most and last longer. A good sale technique but hardly a conspiracy.


Joe

[Tim2723]

I'm not even sure that constitutes a good sales technique, especially for a brick-and-mortar dealer. There's not a customer on the planet who won't eventually tune an instrument to concert pitch, and if they're unhappy with it, they're going to be back with a vengeance. Take Walt for instance. He's unhappy and here he is telling us about it. I’m sure you’re right that there are those who would do it, but I'd rather not even sell something under those conditions. Way to much pain involved for me.

I always thought Taylor used coated strings so their instruments would have fresher strings while they hung on the wall. Coated strings are more expensive, and manufactuters don't tend to spend extra if they're intending to trick folks. And being very popular, I doubt that Taylor has to play too many games.

[Matt DeBlass]

I used to work in a little guitar shop. We never deliberately de-tuned instruments, in fact, when it was slow one of my jobs was to walk around the shop with an electronic tuner and tune up all the guitars.
If it was busy, though, we didn't get to do precision tuning, and we'd just grab it off the wall and tune it to itself. Never any deliberate deception.

It might have just been laziness. Did you try new strings? Does the music store have freakishly great acoustics? Or does your home have incredibly bad ones?
Also, if you'd been noodling with it for a few days, then suddenly changed the sound of the instrument, you may just have the discomfort of hearing a sound you're not used to (which can be perpetuated by the sense of that sound being "bad" in your subconscious).

Or, it could just be a lemon and you got scammed. Strange about the fiddle though, they usually do sound best at their correct pitch (they're deliberately built that way).

[allenhopkins]

I've done a bit of part-time work selling stringed instruments, over the past 35 years or so, and I've never heard of this practice. The amount of strain on instruments' necks saved by tuning only a half-step low, would be pretty negligible. If you have a couple hundred instruments on display, it's not surprising that some might not be tuned to "concert" at any given time.

Dave Stutzman, second-generation proprietor of Stutzman's Guitar Center, (http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com/) where I've shopped since 1964 and where I worked for a few years, has been tuning, playing, repairing and selling instruments for so long, that he can put one into perfect A=440 tuning without ever using a tuner. Any one that he prepares for sale, is tuned to "concert," but you never know how potential customers may adjust or re-tune instruments on the floor.

The other part of the OP's narrative that's not clear, is how low the Kentucky was tuned when the store demo-ed it. A half step difference won't change a rich, full-toned mando into a tinny, tight disappointment. Also, remember that what "sounds good" is to some extent subjective; one person's "thin, tinny" sound may be another's "clear, bell-like tone," and some like a bassy sound, while others find it muddy.

Not being familiar with the store where the Kentucky was sold, I'd have a hard time verifying or disputing an allegation of "deception." And I don't blame the OP for not recognizing lower tuning, since he wasn't familiar with mandolins. It's too bad that the Kentucky didn't sound as good in standard pitch, but I hope that he didn't spend a great deal on it; KM-162's generally go for $250 new.

[Steve L]

I think the underlying assumption that a flat-tuned instrument sounds "better" is somewhat flawed. We don't intentionally de-tune in the store where I work though most of my younger co-workers really can't tell where it's pitched without a tuner. I tend to hear slightly sharp, but can usually get it within a few cents of 440 by ear.

[bonny]

I worked in a large GC type store for a few months as the bass guy and most mornings the first thing I did was quick tune as much of the stock as I could. I'd never heard of a store deliberately tuning low before now....probably 'cause I'd never do business with anyone who'd pull <expletive deleted by Moderator> like that.

[Mike Bunting]

Hey I would like to get a big wall tuner like that would you happen to know what company makes it?

I don't know what a "hing" is BUT I want one! LOL! :))
You never want to hear a "hing" that's out of tune! :grin: My keyboard has a mind of its own!
I think those wall tuners are made by Korg, I suspect they are available to dealers. Really would be handy in your practice room though.

[Tim2723]

I wish all the pubs had tuners like that instead of the stupid clock that's fifteen minutes fast. Nobody's ever fooled, and the cops have to shove them out the door anyway, so why bother?

[Fretbear]

Who knows about the music store's practices, but low tuning of acoustic instruments is an interesting topic, for both mandolins and guitars. I keep my flattop guitar tuned a half-step down at all times (capo at the first fret is pitch) and will use heavier gauge strings on occasion; the tonal response between tuning it there and at pitch is very noticeable, but I only started out doing it to easily accompany songs in lower keys. Every mandolin is constructed and graduated (by design or by accident) where it will sing out best at a certain "load". The gauge of the strings will also play a part in this as will the set-up. A certain mandolin (especially a factory one) might very well sound best tuned somewhere other than standard pitch. If you ever tried to play along with old Flatt and Scruggs LP's you soon found that they were often tuned slightly higher than pitch to add some more brilliance (beyond their own). The problem with the mandolin resonating well anywhere else but at pitch is that unlike the guitar, you don't have a lot of options, at least if you ever want to play with other people.

[GTison]

I think we have discussed this before, I don't think most music stores walk around tuning instruments all day. Because it would take some man hours all day every day. When a customer comes in he wants to play something right then. He tunes it up to his liking and puts it down. Is it tuned to standard if there's no tuner on the wall? I doubt it. If I worked there I would probably get a note off of a nearby guitar and tune to that. Especially for a lower end instrument. There most likely is no policy involved other than "demo that instrument and sell it, and get to the next customer quick , & repeat". But, I like them to be tuned to standard too when I go. I love that tuner on the wall in my local store.

[Matt DeBlass]

There you go, you can always just tune your mandolin down a half-step and use a capo ::ducks::

[JeffD]

I don't think most music stores walk around tuning instruments all day. Because it would take some man hours all day every day..

I have been to a number of shops specializing in vintage instruments. Every guitar, every mandolin I pulled down, was tuned perfectly. I don't know how they do it, but every instrument I tried out was in tune.

I have seen more and more of those large wall hanger tuners as well.

[Tim2723]

Pickle chips. This conversation reminds me of pickle chips.

A few years ago we were playing at one of our regular gigs in a local restaurant. There was always this persistent myth in the world that restaurant owners re-use uneaten pickle chips from customers plates. I asked the owner about it. I can’t remember his exact words, but he laughed and said something like, "No, of course restaurants don't do that. An owner has everything he owns tied up in his place. If he got caught doing that, the Board of Health would shut him down. Do you really think he'd risk it all for a lousy pickle? There's not even time to do that in the kitchen. We need to wash the plates and get the next serving out. Besides, there's no profit in it as we get the pickle chips free from the purveyor. You can't save money on something that doesn't cost money."

I’m not exactly sure what that has to do with cheating the tuning on a mandolin, but something just reminds me of pickle chips.

[CES]

This is why you should always ask for a tuner OR, as I'm doing more of lately, find an instrument with an onboard tuner (easier with guitars, obviously, but no reason you can't use it as a starting point). I never really thought about this other than to just tune by ear/to itself when I was trying instruments out until I started having some set-up work done on an ebay special. The luthier, who's actually a great guy, would do some work, tune it up, hand it to me to try, and it'd feel great. I'd get it home (a very short drive without really any significant environmental changes), play it until one of the A strings went out of tune, then check it with my tuner. Found it to be a half step flat. Tuned it up...now not so nice and playable, though the tone didn't really change. Happened twice before I thought anything about it. The half step does make a difference in playability. He wasn't trying to hose me in any way...the second time he didn't charge me to do further adjustment, but again tuned it a 1/2 step low. Either his tuner's not set to 440 or he's doing it by ear (haven't asked him outright yet). In checking around the store, some of the instruments are a little flat, but not often a 1/2 step, usually just a bit off.

The neck/fretboard on that thing is such a trainwreck that I actually HAVE tuned it down a step and capo'd at one before getting nut/fret work done...not what I wanted to do, but at the time it was all I had, and it was how I got to practice without fret buzz...::not ducking:: :)

[Nolan]

You never want to hear a "hing" that's out of tune! :grin: My keyboard has a mind of its own!
I think those wall tuners are made by Korg, I suspect they are available to dealers. Really would be handy in your practice room though.

I've been looking for one of those for years... no luck so far. Parkland guitars used to have one in the local GC.... and I saw a Korg in a music store about 15 years ago but so far all I've gotten is that they are given to the stores and aren't for sale.

[Steve L]

I've met a luthier or 2 who think they have a really sharp ear and it's not even close.

[Mike Bunting]

I've been looking for one of those for years... no luck so far. Parkland guitars used to have one in the local GC.... and I saw a Korg in a music store about 15 years ago but so far all I've gotten is that they are given to the stores and aren't for sale.

You talking about hings?

[acousticnotes]

I'm not even sure that constitutes a good sales technique, especially for a brick-and-mortar dealer. There's not a customer on the planet who won't eventually tune an instrument to concert pitch, and if they're unhappy with it, they're going to be back with a vengeance. Take Walt for instance. He's unhappy and here he is telling us about it. I’m sure you’re right that there are those who would do it, but I'd rather not even sell something under those conditions. Way to much pain involved for me.

I always thought Taylor used coated strings so their instruments would have fresher strings while they hung on the wall. Coated strings are more expensive, and manufactuters don't tend to spend extra if they're intending to trick folks. And being very popular, I doubt that Taylor has to play too many games.

Hey Tim,
Didn't mean to infer that Taylor was trying to to trick people and yes your right they do use coated strings so they can last longer at the dealer. My point was a guitar maker or mandolin maker given all the different choices one has today would be smart to have an leg up or edge on the competition. In the long run coated strings can help sell a guitar. As far as the dealer goes you have good one and not so good ones. Like everything else. So while I don't think every dealer is deceiving you by tunning down I'm sure some do. Maybe the person who has been playing a while will catch it but someone who is new to the game probably won't. BTW I own two Taylor's and really think they make a fine guitar:)