How do hear yourself over a saxophone?!

[Professor PT]

I play casually with a group of people, and quite frequently, a sax player sits in and plays so "durn" loud that I can't hear myself even through the PA. #I have made some mention of this to the guy who "hosts" the group; #he's apparently old friends with the sax player and wants her to sit in as much as possible. #Even without a mic, that thing is so loud...and we can't really turn up the PA since we're playing in a residential neighborhood. #What should I do? #I've already hinted, with decorum, that it's too loud. #Should I try to sabotage the sax? #Maybe I could pour glue in it. #Either way, I find myself not able to directly confront her; #maybe I should have a few more beers and then I'll do it. #What's even worse is that her husband, who is a fiddle player, sits in and plays loudly as well. #And, perhaps worst of all, most of the songs we play have no need for sax or fiddle!!! BTW, I tried to correct the error in the title of my post( I teach English--that's why I'm so picky ), but it wouldn't let me edit it.

[Bruce Evans]

The way I see it:

ROCK # # # #you # # # # HARD PLACE

If casual mentions aren't working and she doesn't bother the host, you're stuck. You will probably have to find some place else to play. There are a few places that I don't go anymore for similar reasons.

[softshell]

Get an electric mandolin and a very big amp!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Keith Wallen]

Build a sound box around her like they do for drum sets... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GVD]

softshell Posted on Aug. 24 2004, 06:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get an electric mandolin and a very big amp!

I recommend a Marshall TSL100 with the gain turned to 11 and reverb on full crunch. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

GVD

[mandopete]

Switch to banjo!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[250sc]

I played in a rock band that that would have a particular guest drummer come up and play a few songs with us but he played rediculously loud. After trying to comment on it a couple times I got in the habit of leaving the stage and sitting in the audience when he came up to play. When asked why I simply explained that playing music shouldn't be painful and I'm not going to go deaf because someone has a problem with dynamics. No anger or anomosity. Just stateing a fact.

It all worked out.

[John Flynn]

Sax is the banjo of the wind section!

[Flatpick]

Like a trumpet, I have seen a mute for a saxophone. Just a thought.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Flatpick

[Professor PT]

I've thought about putting a toilet plunger in her sax; maybe I can claim it's just a mute.

[John Rosett]

tell them that you're morally opposed to "sax and violins".
john

[jmkatcher]

Two words: resonator mandolin
It also makes a good club in a fight.

[mad dawg]

Switch to banjo!
In the unlikely (and unfortunate) case that Pete's suggestion doesn't work, make it a Deering Crossfire, and plug it into a Peavy stack.

[Flowerpot]

How about the ol' manjo? You know, those things tuned like a mandolin, with a skin head like a banjo? They are horribly loud and obnoxious... we used to have one sitting around in case a jam degenerated into a thrash-fest, and it would cut through like an air horn. They don't chop worth a darn, though.

[TommyK]

I've thought about putting a toilet plunger in her sax; #maybe I can claim it's just a mute.
Hey, the plumber's friend works for trumpet.... and the added benefit that you also have a club.

[TommyK]

Seriously,
This seems like a common problem with music groups. Somebodys's ex-girlfriends husband's daughter plays oboe and wants in on the fun. And nobody has the guts to say Thanks, but no thanks.

The first time someone utters the word 'group'. A set of rules needs to be set down.
Where we going with this? Pro? Semi-Pro, Con? Beer drinkin' with 'music' as an excuse?
What instruments do we need and how many?
Nobody gets added to the group, including a current member picking up a second instrument, without meeting the above criteria and an audition.
PUT IT IN WRITING.
The audition should seperate the casual hangers on from the serious musicians.
It's real easy to say, "Sorry, but we don't need an oboe for our current repertoire, but if we need one, we'll call." when it's in 'writing'.
Just my 2¢ worth

[Bob DeVellis]

This may sound lame and may not quite cut it against a sax, but try positioning yourself in a corner or at leas against a side wall. the sound coming off the wall(s) will feed your mando sound back to you. A big part of the problem is not the relative volume of the mando, but the path the sound takes -- straight away from the player. The walls can deliver some of that back to you. Also, make sure that you're as far from the sax as possible. I learned this little trick going up against accordions in Irish sessions.

[TommyK]

As far as your problem, Perfesser PT. Bring it up to the 'group', ask 'Why are we here?" Maybe this isn't your gig or maybe the others are asking the same. If it's to make music, Tell the foghorns to tone it down... get a mute... act like a musician for cripes sake! there's more than fffs on the chart. If they don't understand or don't know how to do this, then it's time for someone to leave. It could be them or it could be the musicians.

[Professor PT]

Yeah, those are good points. The problem is that I am the relative late-comer to the group, so I don't have the authority to ask her to leave. We play mostly for fun, and we occasionally do a party or benefit gig. The "no commitment" part is what I like. I've been thinking of going off on my own, but it's nice to come over to someone's house who has the room to have the PA set-up and all that other stuff taken care of. Maybe what will work is to try to schedule our playing for when she is out of town or playing a gig...then maybe she'll just get too busy to play with us.

[TommyK]

P'fesser, just what kind of group has a mando and a saxophone? Maybe you're just in the wrong group.

[peterbc]

Yeah, what kind of music is it?

[mad dawg]

This may sound lame and may not quite cut it against a sax, but try positioning yourself in a corner or at leas against a side wall.
Do we need to stand pointing at the corner for best effect? #(Bad mando player! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif )

[JiminRussia]

Dang! I haven't been stood in a corner for over fifty years. Why not make the sax player stand in the corner. That way, he'd be forced to torture himself!

[Jaded]

A guy I jam with sometimes once had some friends that showed up with a digiredoo and a set of bongos to a jam we were at...it was his house tho so we just did the best we could with it. I haven't attempted to play with a saxophone since band class...can't say I enjoyed it much then tho <g>

At a practice for our church's "bluegrass night" recently, we had someone walk up to us and say "all we need is a harmonica player now! Harvey plays harmonica doesn't he?" He didn't seem to understand the look of horror on our faces.

[Professor PT]

P'fesser, just what kind of group has a mando and a saxophone? #Maybe you're just in the wrong group.
No, actually the sax doesn't fit with a lot of what we do, but I guess no one has the guts( or other body parts ) to tell her to sit it out. We play a very eclectic mix: some folk, some old country( Hank Williams ), some roots music, blues. I play electric guitar on some songs, and man, I still can't hear myself!!! And if I turn up, I get weird looks from everyone. I think I am going to start working on putting together my own band--I actually write a lot of songs that are harder edge, electric guitar based. I play mando a lot, too and this group is kind of a fun diversion, for the most part. There aren't a whole lot of people who actually appreciate the mandolin around here, and most of the people in the group really like it. I do write quite a few mando based songs as well, and the group really liked one that I played for them recently. I guess it all boils down to how much bovine excrement you can put up with, and playing in a band is full of it at times.

[TommyK]

Okay Jaded,
Just what is a digredoo? #I know its an Ausie (sp?) thing, but other than that I haven't a clue. #Is it the thing you use to flip shrimps on the barby? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Just another geographically challenged Yank!

[mandocrucian]

How many people are at this jam, not counting the sax player and fiddler? #What's the instrumentation" #What size sax does she play: tenor, alto or soprano? If a tenor player, does she also have an alto? How proficient is she on the instrument? How proficient are the other players on their instruments?

Aside from the relative volume differences, which could be alleviated to some degree with a mute (plunger), stage placement, or player volume control, the actual instrument is not really the problem but a symptom of underlying issues: limitations (stylistic or tehcnical) of the particular player, limitations of the group's director/arranger(s). If the sax player doesn't know what sort of lines she should be playing, is there anyone there that can tell her what she should be doing instead? Does she have any material she does that the other folks could get behind (i.e. Harlem Nocturne)

Sax/fiddle husband/wife team...... #you know what that suggests to me?....... Western swing, Comander Cody & His Lost Planet Airmen, Asleep At The Wheel. # Fiddle/Sax horn section riffs, harmony leads/solos.

Sax could also double the walking bass line, do off-beat toots, sustained pedal tones (high, or low ...i.e. "Locomotion"). If it's a Hank Sr. tune, maybe she should learn some of the steel guitar lines and play with that sort of phrasing.

Sax/Uillean pipes would seem to be a totally mismatched pairing, but the Irish band Moving Hearts used it and it sounded fantastic.

Now, maybe it is a lost cause. #Perhaps nobody is willing to take any direction from anyone else, or nobody has the enough expertise to make interplay suggestions to minimize the chaos. #Maybe folks are locked mentally into certain sonic preconceptions and can't make the jump into a hybrid genre sound until it bites them on the ...

Unusual instrumentation is a two edged blade. You may get chaos and the instruments fighting each other. But if you can make things work, it means you have a big advantage - uniqueness.

Niles Hokkanen

BTW: I've seen some Finnish and Swedish folk bands (i.e. Gjallarhorn (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:qpaxlf3ejcqp~T1)) who've used didge and it sounded tremendous! Like a low bagpipe drone, but rhythmic. #Dark, primal and archaic.

[John Flynn]

Suggest the sax guy play "tenor." That is, ten-or or twleve blocks away!

[Seth Rosen]

Professor PT,

One of the bands I play in has a sax player (tenor and alto), and drums, electric bass and piano. #My solution is simple: I play through an amp. #The mandolin sound is quite directional (as is a sax btw)...an amp on a tilted stand pointed at your head will get heard over the sax even at a moderate volume.

Some don't do this because of the loss of 'acoustic tone', while I'm sympathetic to this, I don't think that a transducer DI sounds particularly acoustic either, I like the sound I get (through a stomp box pre-amp/EQ into a tube amp) better...sounds less sterile to my ear. #Playing into a mic to get a true acoustic sound is not a realistic option in a band with electric bass and drums playing in a noisy bar. #

There is a tune of mine on the mp3 section of this site that would let you here what this set-up sounds like.

Also, as I said, the sax is quite directional too...if she points the bell away from you, that might help too.

--seth

[Asha]

I'm playing mando in a Klezmer group. Usually I've got 2 clarinets on one side of me, and 2 violins on the other. Occasionally we even have a trumpet player; and don't even mention the drums! I would also echo the simple solution of playing with a pickup through an amp in back of you facing out. Although I am still working out some of the finer details of this arrangement, it really works like a charm for me.

[Professor PT]

A lot of good ideas have been mentioned...maybe I can get her to stand out in the driveway. That may be the best solution. I think also maybe turning the PA speakers towards us a bit may help out. If that doesn't, I'll probably have to buy a pickup for my mando--something I have been fighting.

[Jacob]

Many years ago, my first trombone instructor scolded me for playing a symphonic passage "blastissimo".
She said that if you are playing in an ensemble and can't hear every other musician,
it's a good indication that you are probably playing too loudly.
I've made that a rule of thumb ever since, no matter what instrument I was playing.
Now you just need to enlighten the sax player.

[Moose]

WHAT!!! - A pickup on your mandolin!!## - Is nothing sacred anymore!? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Ted Eschliman]

This has been a very interesting thread.
I've faced the same dilemma myself, not so much because of acoustics, but who's putting what notes where...
I played in a church band with a drummer who held the philosophy that melody was just wasted time between drum fills. We'd get to the end of a phrase, and he'd launch into an immediate "tour" of as many toms as he could hit before the melody would start again. It's not that he was a bad drummer (rhythm was great), it was an issue of monopolizing the "spaces." A better musician would share this space, rather than compete, let alone hoard it. (I rather enjoyed being the role of "fill" person when he wasn't there.)
The problem was, he was always getting encouragement and positive feedback from the congregation. Drums are more flamboyant, if not more primal than a mandolin, I guess. He had it in his head that constant sound was his responsibility as a drummer (his personal "mission"). Even our bass player who wanted a cooperative "voice"in establishing the groove had to reign in his creative inputs. It just seemed insurmountable, and since we were rotating drummers from week to week, it just didn't warrant a confrontation. We'd just wait it out for the next drummer.
The big galoot was really a nice guy, we loved him personally, but just had to face the fact that when he played, we were going to be overshadowed.
I didn't have an acoustic problem; being plugged in, I could just turn the volume up, but as mentioned, that would have been a disservice to the rest of the band and the congregation. Funny, I was positioned two feet from his ride cymbal, so I always wore an ear plug in that ear. He still didn't get it.
The social dynamics of playing with others are certainly complex...

[Ken Sager]

Try this:
Tell loud players (politely) to pipe down.

It's not a competition to see who can be the loudest. Ask them to think of music as a conversation and conversations at full voice are nothing more than uninteresting shouting matches. Use a quiet voice to explain that for a musical dialog to be meaningful it doesn't need to be loud.

Dynamics are seriously under-rated and largely ignored.

Plus, it's OK to let folks know when they're playing too loud. Let them know you're not out to hurt their feelings, just to give the music more depth and to let the other interesting (sometimes quieter) voices be heard, too.

Loud has a place, but constant loud music can quickly become noise.

Great big loud love to everybody,
Ken

[Emmiemando]

I've had a similar experience-but with a banjo player. And I agree with Mando Johnny. Saxes are banjos of the wind section!!!AH!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Jaded]

digeridoo (http://www.mills.edu/LIFE/CCM/DIDJERIDU/gallery/didjeridu/didjeridu_gallery.html)

They are actually very interesting instruments and can be very cool sounding in the right hands. The dude that showed up at the party with one was not what you'd call a skilled player http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Asha]

Another thought... #You might ask them to tell you if you are playing too loud, so that you can turn it down. #I realize you are not (yet) amplified! #Doing this takes the focus off the other players and (humourously) puts it on yourself in a non-confrontational way. #That may be one way to get the message across.

[solerydr]

Get the pickup..youll use it.

[Professor PT]

Well, here's perhaps the solution to my dilemma--I'm ashamed to say. I just got word tonight that the sax player's husband--the fiddle player--broke his back in a hang gliding accident. This is serious--no joke. He's going into surgery tonight. So, I'm guessing she( and he ) won't be coming to "jam" anytime soon. Good god, I hope I didn't send so many negative vibes their way that...at any rate, send some positive vibes his way. He's a good guy.

[Adare_Steve]

Join another band and stop trying to compete with the leader's old friend. You'll not win.

BTW, I saw TWO errors in your title (I'm a picky - pun intended - teacher, too).

Steve
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Professor PT]

I mentioned that earlier. #The software would not let me edit the title after I posted! Also, the comma was automatically placed there.

[Oren]

It seems as if every time I post around here, it's in praise of my Godin A8 acoustic-electric mandolin. I can't help it--the thing sounds so acoustic, and yet I can turn it up and hear myself when others get loud. I sometimes play with a really bombastic drummer, but it's no longer a problem, if I'm playing mandolin.

Recently I've been gigging with a dynamite singer who plugs her Rainsong guitar in and turns it up so loud that I have trouble hearing my electric guitar solos--but not my mandolin. It cuts right through and still sounds like an acoustic mandolin. The A8 has truely changed my musical life.

By the way, I have no connection with Godin--I'm just a newly-retired social worker who likes to pick.