Upside-down guitar?

[Nash]

Hello,

I have been playing the guitar for several years now, but I love the sound of the mandolin. I am worried, however, that if I learn to play the mandolin I will just become confused since the tuning is opposite the guitar.

So I was wondering, why wouldn't I just string a mandolin upside down so that it matched most guitar chords? OR even just buy a left handed mandolin and use it as a right handed mandolin? Then I wouldn't have to relearn tonnes of chord shapes, and where all the notes are.

Is this crazy?

[Bill Snyder]

:confused: Huh?
They are not tuned backwards to each other. The lowest strings on both are nearest your chest and the highest are nearest your belt.

[GRW3]

It would be neither fish nor fowl...

I think you would be mightyly dissappointed. There would be no TAB that would work with it. You would run into the same 4th finger crunch that was a big problem with the Gibson M-6 mando guitar.

[OldSausage]

I can guarantee that you will not damage you guitar playing ability by learning the mandolin. And learning a new tuning on the mandolin and all the new things that leads to will expand your musical horizons (=good). There's really no point in learning the mandolin otherwise you should just play your guitar higher up the neck.

So, yes, in my view, your idea is crazy.

[Fretbear]

I don't know how much real-time use there is for it, but it is true, whatever notes the mandolin shares with the guitar (four) are noted (upside down) at the same places to make the same chords as on guitar. The two-finger G chord on the treble of the mandolin (G & B on the high E & A) are the same notes as on the bass of the guitar (G & B on the low E & A). The big difference between the tuning of the two instruments is that the mandolin is tuned symmetrically, which means anything you can do in one place (open or closed), you can do in another place (open or closed).
The asymmetrical tuning of the B string makes the guitar's tuning different in this respect.

[John Flynn]

I get the reason why you are saying the mandolin is opposite of the guitar, in that the mandolin is GDAE and the guitar is EADG(plus BE), but it's really not correct to say it's tuned opposite, since both tunings are low-to-high. So if you reversed the strings on a mandolin, or flipped a left hand mandolin over, the strings would be high-to-low. The correct way to look at it is that mandolins are tuned in fifths and the guitar is tuned in fourths, except for the B string, which is a third above the G.

The reason against retuning the mandolin is that tuning in fifths has a lot of advantages over guitar tuning, especially for the shorter scale of the mandolin. At the beginner level, it allows for lots of two-finger chords. At a more advanced level, it allows for closed chords that sound great and don't bunch your fingers up on the small fretboard. For melody playing, tuning in fifths lays the notes out very logically and evenly over the fretboard and takes advantage of the reach you get on the smaller scale. Many people here, including myself, have learned the mandolin in GDAE after years of playing the guitar. It's not that hard and well worth it.

[Strado Len]

I play both. Started with guitar and then taught myself the mandolin. If anything, playing the mandolin has made me a better guitar player. If you start to get confused as to which instrument you are playing, remember - the guitar is bigger.

I recommend learning to play the mandolin in standard tuning. It won't take long getting used to an instrument with a different tuning. And you'll have fun learning new chord forms, scales, licks and tunes.

[JCLondonUK]

You won't get confused. And you won't have to learn tons of new chord shapes -- you can learn patterns for chords up the neck, the mando equivalent of the CAGED system on guitar, so you only have to learn the patterns and the open chords. And learning new things is fun!

I agree with OldSausage -- otherwise you might as well forget the mando and capo your guitar high up the neck.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually, I use that upside down guitar tuning concept now and again if I'm trying to figure out an odd chord and that's just about it. I played guitar for 40 some odd years before I played mandolin. Don't think about it and you'll be fine.

[mandroid]

Upside Down Dude, study the Circle of 5ths .. [?] sharps are added to the key signature in fifths , going around the other way flats are added to those key signature in 4ths ..

EADG in 4ths 5th fret Unison note same pitch and name .. in 5ths GDAE Unison is the 7th
Flip them over and the same note names are an Octave apart.

[allenhopkins]

I used to have the same worries, that I'd inadvertently be making chords from one instrument on another instrument, with un-listenable results. I started on banjo, went to guitar, then to mandolin, in the period 1962-70 (does anyone realize how damn long ago that was?).

Hasn't really been a problem. One of the things I would recommend, though, is not to learn two instruments at the same time. You've been playing guitar several years, so you have the guitar chords well-established. You need to learn a new set of fingerings on top of those, and the mandolin feels different enough in your hands, that your brain will realize that "this ain't no guitar," and not tell you to make guitar chords. If I were trying to learn guitar chords and mandolin chords at the same time, I would be worried that I'd get them mixed up.

There are a lot of musicians who retune their instruments for various reasons. You're sort of considering tuning a mandolin in fourths rather than fifths, to replicate the "fourths" tuning of five of the six guitar strings. You're free to try anything, of course, and you may come up with an alternative tuning that you prefer. I would say, however, that instruments are built and tuned in a particular way for a reason, developed from centuries of experimentation, innovation, and finally consensus. In my limited experience, most instruments work the best tuned and played in the way they were designed to be tuned and played. Not without some interesting exceptions, but I find it more useful to adapt my playing to the instrument, than to adapt the instrument to my playing.

On the other hand, Tommy Todisco, the LA studio legend who played on the soundtracks of hundreds of movies, TV shows etc. -- and used to write a wonderful Studio Log column in Guitar Player magazine -- reportedly owned hundreds of different stringed instruments, played them at thousands of studio gigs -- and tuned every one of them like a guitar. So not only can you do it, you can become internationally famous for doing it.

[Wendell Jeong]

Nash,

Welcome to this great forum. I've played guitar for over 40 years and had no problem switching to mando a year and a half ago. If you try this alternate tuning be sure to let us know how it works out for you. I have wondered myself how the sound would change if the tuning were to be reversed. My analysis of this is that I would lose the high string droning that the normal tuning allows. For example, playing an open string D on the 2nd and 3rd sting and droning the open E on the 1st string won't work with a guitar tuning.

Wendell

[Jack Roberts]

Actually the upside down concept was useful the first week I played mandolin. Whenever I need to play a chord, I knew I could always invert the chord shape from guitar.

Beyond that, playing from notation quickly became a lot easier on mandolin with its tuning in 5ths compared to the 4th-4th-4th-3rd-4th of the guitar. The trick is that there are two frets per finger on mandolin instead of one as on guitar, so they are different enough that you don't get confused after a few weeks.

Tuning a mandolin in 4ths would greatly reduce the range in first position. The mandolin can play 28 notes in first position. If you go to fourths you would lose 6 notes and you would have different fingering for the high string compared to the other 3 strings.

You could also tune like the four high strings on a guitar and have D G B E and guess what? You've got a ukulele!

[lenf12]

What string guages would you use to tune a mandolin like a guitar (E A D G low to high)? It would take some experimentation and shopping around to find the right strings to achieve the proper pitch and support the correct string tension to drive the mandolin top. I suppose a light guage C mandola string could be tuned up to E especially with the shorter scale length, etc.

It makes my head hurt to think about it. ;)

Len B.
Clearwater, FL
(I have no problems switching between mandolin and guitar)

[John Flynn]

What string guages would you use to tune a mandolin like a guitar (E A D G low to high)? It would take some experimentation and shopping around to find the right strings to achieve the proper pitch and support the correct string tension to drive the mandolin top. I suppose a light guage C mandola string could be tuned up to E especially with the shorter scale length, etc.

It makes my head hurt to think about it.
Actually, that part is pretty easy. A lot of string vendors, including Elderly, will put custom sets together for just about any application. Also, there are sites online where you can calculate string tensions and there is also Doug Deiter's "Universal String Tension Calculator" that you can download. You just put in scale length, string diameters and tunings for a regular mandolin string set, change the tunings for an octave above guitar, then adjust the string diameters until the tensions come out relatively the same.

A set that is roughly the same tension as J74's, tuned EADG one octave higher than a guitar on a 14" scale, I estimate would be .45w/.32w/.24/.19. You could also do a .26w on the D if you wanted.

[mandroid]

You could buy one of those Gold tone 6 string guitar sopranos, and play it instead . :disbelief:

or the Bass and get more work .. :whistling:

[JeffD]

Hello,

I have been playing the guitar for several years now, but I love the sound of the mandolin. I am worried, however, that if I learn to play the mandolin I will just become confused since the tuning is opposite the guitar.

So I was wondering, why wouldn't I just string a mandolin upside down so that it matched most guitar chords? OR even just buy a left handed mandolin and use it as a right handed mandolin? Then I wouldn't have to relearn tonnes of chord shapes, and where all the notes are.

Is this crazy?

Yes. Well not crazy, but its not a way to get done what you want to do? Do you really even want to play mandolin? Perhaps a suprano guitar is what you are after. Same chord shapes, up a fifth.

Is chords all you want to play? No double stops, no tremolos, no melody, no flatpick breaks? The mandolin is SO much more than a small guitar with double strings.

[Charley wild]

The only problem I've encountered changing from guitar to mandolin is that it took me years to rise to my present level of mediocrity on the guitar and I don't know if I have that much time left to accomplish it on the mandolin!

[JGWoods]

The only problem I've encountered changing from guitar to mandolin is that it took me years to rise to my present level of mediocrity on the guitar and I don't know if I have that much time left to accomplish it on the mandolin!

No problem. I found I can be mediocre on 4 instruments and it has only taken me 10, 7, and 5 years to do the last 3

[OldSausage]

Yes, it's true, I found once I'd truly achieved mediocrity on one instrument, I could achieve it in any endeavor I really put my mind to.

[Steve Ostrander]

I never thought of the mando as an upside down guitar. I had no problem learning new chord structures. I picked it up a lot quicker than guitar. It only took me a few months to get to mediocre.

[Charley wild]

Hey, JG, David and Steve! We could start a band "The Mediocre Mandolin Boys"!
Who knows, we might hit the Smalltime!;)

[TEE]

I would tell you to play right side up but I would have told Hendrix not to play with his teeth, SRV to not play behind his back, Jeff Healy to not play it on his lap and Albert King not to play upside down.

For some reason it is not considered unusual to play a guitar upside down (Many Do) but evidently it is for mandolin.

By the way, why would the string gauge be any different or chord shapes be any more bunched up played upside down?

Why would two finger chords be any different?

Why should someone be discouraged from learning mandolin if they want to play upside down?

If I understood the OP correctly he did not mention retuning anything just playing upside down or restringing upside down.

Being a guitar player and seeing many accomplished upside down guitar players I am just curious as to why a mandolin can not be played upside down?

[Santiago]

Learning mandolin has helped my guitar playing, except that I have lost interest in it.

[Coffeecup]

Nash, I had the same concerns when starting mandolin but, as the others have said, the fears were groundless. The only thing that has suffered is sight-reading on the guitar which was never strong anyway. This is more than compensated by a better understanding of theory and melody gained on the mando.

[Wendell Jeong]

If I understood the OP correctly he did not mention retuning anything just playing upside down or restringing upside down.

Being a guitar player and seeing many accomplished upside down guitar players I am just curious as to why a mandolin can not be played upside down?

TEE,

You are right. I was thinking retuning when I responded. Just simply playing upside down should work fine. I too have seen excellent guitar players play upside down.

Wendell

[Bill Snyder]

...why wouldn't I just string a mandolin upside down so that it matched most guitar chords?...

Well that is not exactly turning it upside down. The mandolin would still be played right handed but restrung with the g on bottom and the e on top.

[OldSausage]

Hey, JG, David and Steve! We could start a band "The Mediocre Mandolin Boys"!
Who knows, we might hit the Smalltime!;)

You're right, we could really have a short and disappointing future together, if things go well. :)

[TEE]

Uh- Oh, Someone didn't get the memo.

[TEE]

Well that is not exactly turning it upside down. The mandolin would still be played right handed but restrung with the g on bottom and the e on top.

Not sure how that would not be upside down, but why would the chords change, tabs not work, scales be altered just by playing it upside down or as you say with the e string on top and the G string on bottom?

Just curious.

[Bill Snyder]

It is strung upside down but the instrument would still be fretted with the left hand and picked with the right. Looking at tab you would have to reverse the order, thats all.

[mandroid]

Haven't Heard again from 'Nash' the OP ... really .. if you make the effort to learn the mandolin as is ,
a violin with frets, after all , then after a while you have to forcibly remind yourself you even Own a Guitar ..

:popcorn:

[JeffD]

Why should someone be discouraged from learning mandolin if they want to play upside down?


People can play the mandolin any way they want. But the OP was talking about learning the guitar, specifically making the transition from guitar to mandolin easier.

If a person already proficient playing mandolin wants to experiment with cross tunings, playing upside down, or what ever else, I would have absolutely no comment, my opinion being go for it, its all good.


If someone wants advice about how to learn the mandolin I would be doing that person a diservice if I did not point out the advantages of learning to play the conventionally configured instrument in the conventional way.

[Mike Bunting]

[QUOTE=Nash;703138]Hello,

I have been playing the guitar for several years now, but I love the sound of the mandolin. I am worried, however, that if I learn to play the mandolin I will just become confused since the tuning is opposite the guitar.

So I was wondering, why wouldn't I just string a mandolin upside down so that it matched most guitar chords? OR even just buy a left handed mandolin and use it as a right handed mandolin? Then I wouldn't have to relearn tonnes of chord shapes, and where all the notes are.

Is this crazy?[/QUOTE}
Yes, it's crazy. What is wrong with making the effort to learn it properly?

[Ivan Kelsall]

When you play Mandolin - be a Mandolin player,forget the Guitar, Banjo etc.,when you play either of those or any other instrument,forget the Mandolin & the other instruments. Trying to think of one & playing the other isn't a recipe for success.
I've played Banjo for 46 years & Guitar for around 15 years,& i never had an confused thoughts when i began playing Mandolin - i simply played Mandolin as though i'd never heard of a Banjo or Guitar. Yes,you can remember the musical intervals,chords etc.that you play on a Guitar & apply
them to Mandolin. I remembered chords & notes from Banjo to be able to play some of my Banjo tunes on Mandolin,but i certainly didn't 'think in Banjo terms'. IMHO,i think that you have to learn a new instrument on it's own terms,apply what you can from other instruments,certainly,but immerse yourself in the new one,
Ivan;)

[Ronnie L]

I didnt have a problem technicaly speaking changing from Guitar to Mandolin but for the for year I did make the common mistake of playing it like "A little guitar" Eventually it did sink in that the Mandolin had its own dynamic and lyric that was beatifull to behold. I still have my first compositions on my space as a permenant lesson and reminder for me!

[Soupy1957]

When I started learning the mandolin, someone stated that it was "like guitar; upside down and backwards." I tried to approach the mandolin from its own direction, rather than to try and figure out what chord shapes were "upside down and backwards" like the guitar.

Similar to Santiago, I found that I grew OUT of love with the guitar (not completely, mind you), and play the guitar rarely anymore.

Like Charlie Wild, I found that I progressed MUCH faster on the mandolin, in a much shorter span of time, than I did on the guitar, over the years.

In one other thread, I TRIED (somewhat unsucessfully, since most threads in here tend to migrate away from topic), to find out if there were any alternate tunings that might be interesting to try on the mandolin, (like I used to do on the guitar for Richie Havens songs), but still haven't heard of any specific ones. (I think I was looking at the time, for a quick and easy way around learning established chords, and realized that there are no shortcuts to learning the instrument).

-Soupy1957

[TEE]

If someone wants advice about how to learn the mandolin I would be doing that person a diservice if I did not point out the advantages of learning to play the conventionally configured instrument in the conventional way.

Well actually you told the OP to try another instrument, that double stops would not work and that he could not play melodies. All of course he could.

Some others told him to study circle of fifths, that the scale would be different and he would not be able to play tabs. All of which is wrong, except the circle of fifths which would apply to any musical instrument strung any way you choose.

My thoughts were simply to tell him (as many did) that he would adjust to the mandolin fairly easily without turning it upside down without telling him to just capo the guitar, play another instrument besides mandolin or that he was crazy.

If that did not suit him there is no reason that I can think of that would prevent him from playing upside down. I would not recommend he do it either but the reasons given are not correct.

[John Flynn]

Well, I just tried playing my mandolin "upside down." I can see that it can be done, especially if you managed to teach yourself to read tabs and chord diagrams "backwards" and you learned to do scales going the opposite direction vertically, meaning that you would be going up the scale by starting on strings "further from your face" and progressing to strings "toward your face," the opposite of "normal." It still would not be, as the OP thought it might be, the same as playing a guitar, because the guitar strings go from the low to high as you move vertically "away from your face." All you would be getting is some partial chord shapes that you would not have to re-learn from the guitar, even though those chords would be different inversions.

As was also mentioned, you could also restring with strings that would mimic guitar tuning and that has been done by a couple of builders and performers. Then you would be playing just like a "little guitar," with the scales and chord inversions going the same direction as the guitar. But both approaches seem to me to be going "the long way around" just to avoid learning something new, something that is not that hard. Also, the mandolin tuning in fifths has some real advantages. That's why that design has stood the test of time. If you want to forego those advantages, knock yourself out.

There are always going to be people who play an instrument differently in some way. In addition to the examples already mentioned, I am reminded of the way Kenny Hall holds the mandolin and also the lap guitar style of the late Jeff Healy. Both of those players developed their styles because they were blind and had no visual reference for the way most people played. And they both became great players. Playing in a radically different way like that is all well and good if you had to learn that way for some reason. But while other great players might try to emulate the musical ideas those guys express, you don't see most great players emulating the radical ways they learned to hold/play their instruments. As people have already said, why intentionally do it the hard way if you don't have to?

[TEE]

I have no problem telling the guy that playing upside down is going to be awkward Etc...But telling him he can't make chords, read tab, tremolo, play melodies and that the scales are different, That he should just play a different instrument are just not correct.

Many people answered like he was going to tune the mandolin like a guitar but the OP does not mention that or even infer it as far as I can tell.


By all means convince the guy that it is advantageous to learn mandolin the traditional way and give him valid reasons but don't give him reasons that just aren't true.

[OldSausage]

Many people answered like he was going to tune the mandolin like a guitar but the OP does not mention that or even infer it as far as I can tell.


He did say: "So I was wondering, why wouldn't I just string a mandolin upside down so that it matched most guitar chords?" and I certainly took that to imply that he wanted to tune it like a guitar.

[John Flynn]

I took the same inference from that phrase also. Even if he didn't say that, though, it's a logical option that would deserve discussion based on the topic of the thread.

[JeffD]

I have no problem telling the guy that playing upside down is going to be awkward Etc...But telling him he can't make chords, read tab, tremolo, play melodies and that the scales are different, That he should just play a different instrument are just not correct..

Tee I see your point. I stand corrected. Your point is that chords tab double stops etc are possible, and I should not have implied different.

Doing as the OP was suggesting would perhaps (and I am not convinced but I will give the benefit of the doubt) make doing chords easier.

The trouble would start when ever he tried to learn any melodies or double stops or learn scales in standard notation - with any of the standard instructional materials out there. i.e. he has conceivably made it easier to do a bunch of chords using a short cut of sorts, but all the other stuff will be harder to learn because there would not be any published sources of infomormation for his tuning, and all advise from other mandolin players would have to be translated - you get what I mean.

And things would sound different. The double stops would be different. The root with the third above would not be fingered the same. The root with the fifth below would not be fingered the same. The open string below the note being played would not have the same relationship. The natural harmonies of the instrument would be different. The chords would sound different, not incorrect I admint, but not the same. The order the strings sound when strummed would be different.

Certainly it would still be playable. But at what point is it not really learning the mandolin.

But to be precise, you are correct, chords, melodies, double stops all can be played on any instrument with more than one string.

If you will grant me a slight exaggeration, I don't think you would gig me if I told someone "you can't play unless you tune up" even though we all know that that is factually incorrect, one certainly can play an instrument that is out of tune. Its just kind of awkward.

[Keith Erickson]

Nash,

I completely see your point. When I first picked up the mandolin in the fall of 1986, I thought of this instrument as an "upside guitar with inverted bass and treble strings while missing the B & E". (try saying that 5 times) :))

Anyhow, I learned one song and didn't touch the mandolin for another 18 years. When I picked up the mandolin again in 2004, I knew that this method would be the basic of the basics to help me get started again.

However when I discovered the Mandolin Café, I found this link (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/chords/ch.pl) which helped me learn "real mandolin chords". From that point, it was pretty evident that if I was going to learn the mandolin, I had to think of it as a completely different instrument from the guitar.

I know that I'm one of many opinions on this subject. I just though I would share my 2½ pesos on this subject.

Cheers ~o)

[TEE]

Tee I see your point. I stand corrected. Your point is that chords tab double stops etc are possible, and I should not have implied different.

Doing as the OP was suggesting would perhaps (and I am not convinced but I will give the benefit of the doubt) make doing chords easier.

The trouble would start when ever he tried to learn any melodies or double stops or learn scales in standard notation - with any of the standard instructional materials out there. i.e. he has conceivably made it easier to do a bunch of chords using a short cut of sorts, but all the other stuff will be harder to learn because there would not be any published sources of infomormation for his tuning, and all advise from other mandolin players would have to be translated - you get what I mean.

And things would sound different. The double stops would be different. The root with the third above would not be fingered the same. The root with the fifth below would not be fingered the same. The open string below the note being played would not have the same relationship. The natural harmonies of the instrument would be different. The chords would sound different, not incorrect I admint, but not the same. The order the strings sound when strummed would be different.

Certainly it would still be playable. But at what point is it not really learning the mandolin.

But to be precise, you are correct, chords, melodies, double stops all can be played on any instrument with more than one string.

If you will grant me a slight exaggeration, I don't think you would gig me if I told someone "you can't play unless you tune up" even though we all know that that is factually incorrect, one certainly can play an instrument that is out of tune. Its just kind of awkward.

Good post JeffD, All valid and great reasons to play conventionally. Very well said.

[wogster]

Hello,

I have been playing the guitar for several years now, but I love the sound of the mandolin. I am worried, however, that if I learn to play the mandolin I will just become confused since the tuning is opposite the guitar.

So I was wondering, why wouldn't I just string a mandolin upside down so that it matched most guitar chords? OR even just buy a left handed mandolin and use it as a right handed mandolin? Then I wouldn't have to relearn tonnes of chord shapes, and where all the notes are.

Is this crazy?

It's not opposite though, strings run low to high, the strings just start in different places, it's the same with any instrument, they are all different, it doesn't take much though for your brain to realise that difference, and adapt, once you get down the concept of the basic notes, you will find that your not relearning chords, but your brain is translating, then after a while you pick up the other instrument, and it's all just there, without really thinking about it, even stuff you have never seen on that instrument before.