So... what have you learned? MAS and the pursuit of the TONE

[Rick Crenshaw]

Changing an earlier thread around... what did you learn from your experiences with mandolin purchases and your MAS as you pursue the TONE you are looking for? RULES:
1. Do not name brands/makes
2. stick to generic mandolin tone, set up, appointments only. No brand/make specific information.

Stick to things like: balance, tone on specific strings, or high end, mids, bass, neck profiles, radius, black face, satin, gloss, varnish, etc.

Let's keep things helpful but no bashing. Remember people have different ideas about tone, set up, etc. Tell us what YOU learned for YOU.

[300win]

Well Rick, a hard question in some ways. 44 years ago I began to learn mandolin, and I'm still at it. But I always coveted a certain famous type, but was not able to get one due to funds until the past year or so. I grew up playing inferior mandolins, and on occasion got to pick a really good one, so I knew from way back what I wanted. Clesr mellow, woody tone, clear trebles and mid-range, even across the board, and enough volume that I did not have to strain and hamper my picking ability. As far as finish or what it actually looked like, fancy beautiful are nice on the eyes, but give me great tone everyday, I don't care if it's plain looking as long as "the sound" is there. The awesomest guitar I've ever had in my hands was a old D-18 Martin that looked rough as a cob, but was the best sounding/playing guitar I've ever held.

[Rick Crenshaw]

Well, I'll get it going by telling what I've learned (and I'm still learning).
1. You can get used to any neck, but slimmer necks just seem easier and faster for me to play upon. I like a V shape to it also.
2. If you really, really want an F5.. go ahead and spring for it. You'll never be happy until you own one... despite the fact that the A model you have may sound terrific.
3. Don't purchase a mandolin just because it has a 'killer' (insert E,D,A, or G here) string. They all need to sound super.
4. Don't discount the G string just because so many mandolins don't have it there. The good ones do, but don't buy one that's all G string either.
5. If the mandolin doesn't excite you the first time you play it, be careful about buying it. It may not get any better. Even if it 'opens up', it may not be what you want.
6. Mass produced mandolins vary... A LOT. Play many, many before you buy if it is a big purchase for you. I know that's tough for many people. Not all PacRim mandos or even American made mandos are created equal. BTW, some of these are the ones I've noticed seem to 'open up' more than others. But the good ones started out good, too.
7. Buy used when you can. People trade killer mandolins all the time. We are a crazy bunch. Many want the old mandolin back after a few years.
8. You're more likely to get a good mandolin sight unseen if you go with a bench-made small shop mandolin from a maker with a good name. It'll be more expensive, but you'll retain a lot of value and likely all the value if you buy it used. The good makers don't let poor sounding mandolins out of their shop... as a rule. Don't hold me to this... but it's very good bet.
9. Bite the bullet and get a mandolin that is a bit more than you want to spend. Then play the fool out of it. You can skip a lot of mandolin trading if you
a) wait to find a really good sounding example of the <$2000 models, or
b) get more than you think you deserve (as long as you know you're gonna play mandolin
10. Use patience. If you are a beginner listen and play as many mandolins as you can, especially good ones. But remember, a lot of the tone is in the hands of the players. Don't buy a high dollar mandolin tilll you know what sound you want (unless you are well off, then buy away and support your local mando maker!

[jim_n_virginia]

what did you learn from your experiences with mandolin purchases and your MAS as you pursue the TONE you are looking for?

I've learned it NEVER over! You may THINK it's over but it is NOT it is only quelled for little while! LOL!
:mandosmiley:

[John McGann]

People frequently put too much stock in MAS (or gear acquisition in general) and not enough in musicianship. A lot of instruments have been blamed for faults that may be more due to the driver than the car.

IMHO and YMMV of course.

[Fliss]

This I've learned re MAS and tone:
1. the instrument makes a difference but in terms of tone, the player matters more
2. a good instrument is a joy to play
3. comfort / playability is more important to me than tone (although tone matters hugely!)
4. instruments vary a lot, so when you find the right instrument, buy it (don't think that if you commission one it will necessarily be the same)
5. for comfort / playability I like a radiused fretboard and an action as low as it can go without buzzing
6. for tone, I like sweetness, overtones and sustain
7. for looks - I like to keep it simple. No scroll, minimal bling, nice wood
8. taking a chance on buying something without playing first can pay off, but works best if the price is low enough that I can sell it on without taking a hit if I don't like it
9. it's very subjective - some mandolins seem to come alive in my hands, others just don't. The latter are the ones to avoid.
10. two mandolins is a good number to have :)

Fliss

[Dagger Gordon]

I suggest you develop PAS (pick acquisition syndrome).

Makes a huge difference to the sound and how easily you can play, and is considerably cheaper.

I am a man who has only ever used white Sharkfin picks for about 20 years and have recently decided to experiment. I still can't play with really stiff picks, but the difference in tone and volume between various types can be dramatic.

[Soupy1957]

I admit to being a little confused about a couple of points that "Rick" made, that I'd like clarification on:

"3. Don't purchase a mandolin just because it has a 'killer' (insert E,D,A, or G here) string. They all need to sound super.
4. Don't discount the G string just because so many mandolins don't have it there. The good ones do, but don't buy one that's all G string either."

As for "M.A.S.:" I have to keep away from the "Eye Candy" section in this Forum.
As for "Tone:" I look for solid woods, my particular string preference, the Tone Gard, an armrest
and string silencers.

-Soupy1957

[red7flag]

That some instruments just lend themselves to certain types of music. I had an F5 but that was mahogany back and sides. Beautiful instrument, but really struggle to play grass. It would sing and was happy playing celtic. That most of the oval holes I have played sound great playing Celtic. This is totally ridiculous, but I feel more comfortable playing Celtic with an A. This part has nothing to do with the sound, just the ambiance. That there are two main family trees in the high level F5 (or A5) market, the Gibby approach and the "Modern" approach. They sound different and feel different playing. I have one of each and both fit a nice niche in my playing. I have come to appreciate non bluegrass instruments, my oval A and oval mandola and the Octar. They have expanded my playing. That if I am only going to have one mandolin, it would be an all purpose mandolin. But that if I can have a number of them, I want specific instruments that fit specific niches in my playing. I think you can see that in my instrument list in my signature. That, as soon as I think I have all the instruments that I could ever want, MAS has a way of creeping back in my life. That is where I am now. A walnut guitar shaped OM. Two months ago, that would have been a crazy thought...oh my.

[kudzugypsy]

i learned that the FIRST good mandolin i ever bought was the one i should have stuck with and that climbing up the mandolin food chain did nothing for my playing....and brother i have climbed to the top over the last 20 years.

i think a mandolin will bond with you if its the right one, and just be content and play - dont worry about all the hype and name and status or pride in owning X brand / maker.

[fatt-dad]

Here are a few things I've learned:

Scroll is not for me and not worth the money as it doesn't offer any value in tone (the lap point may be nice, however).
Sometimes what you really want is right in your own backyard (sappy reference to the Wizzard of Oz).
Being a great player is much more difficult that being a great collector. Maybe it's because I now realize I'm not likely to be great "either," I've settled for improving my playing.
I really do think my two Flatirons are great mandolins and that's all there is to that!
I bought an IV kit to get it done, but haven't gotten it done yet.
I'm not sure that the made-in-Japan Alvarez, Ibanez, Kentuckys, Arias and the like are really that much different from what's being produced in China. I did really like my MIJ KM-250s back when I had it and kind of wish I kept it.
My Stiver was one heck of a great mandolin and should have kept it too. It was the tuition I paid for scroll envy, but I truely did learn.
If it isn't fun, stop doing it, afterall music is for our mental health, isn't it?

f-d

[Lee]

I was ready to post a long narrative describing what I've learned. But when I re-read it I realized how little I'd learned.

[Mike Bunting]

I admit to being a little confused about a couple of points that "Rick" made, that I'd like clarification on:

"3. Don't purchase a mandolin just because it has a 'killer' (insert E,D,A, or G here) string. They all need to sound super.
4. Don't discount the G string just because so many mandolins don't have it there. The good ones do, but don't buy one that's all G string either."

As for "M.A.S.:" I have to keep away from the "Eye Candy" section in this Forum.
As for "Tone:" I look for solid woods, my particular string preference, the Tone Gard, an armrest
and string silencers.

-Soupy1957
3 and 4 are self explanatory. As for "tone" what do you listen for. All those gadgets won't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. I suppose that it one's tone is real bad, those string silencers might come in handy!

[mcH]

What I've learned?

Buying an instrument for looks has never satisfied my MAS. Every instrument I bought like that, has been sold again, and I haven't missed them.

Don't rule out your current instrument until you
-- listen to someone else (who can play) play it. It really can sound different when you stand on the other side of it.
-- have it set up by someone who KNOWS how to do a setup. This is not necessarily the same person who made it (or the same shop you bought it from).

Play a lot of mandolins to get an idea of what you are looking for in sound, and if you don't know what you want, then find a teacher who will help you pick out a good mandolin. If you have any doubts, then don't buy it (or you'll definitely sell it again).

Never buy an instrument you haven't played in person first.

One of the best mandolins I've ever played is a Paul Schneider 'Summit'. I don't own one, and may never, but the sound of the one I played at Gryphon strings really struck me. And I still like the sound of my Weber. (And don't feel compelled to replace it.)

And last -- once you find your great mandolin -- stop looking and start playing.

[sgarrity]

This is a good idea for a thread. Here's what I've learned:

1) Tone is very subjective but I know what I like and I know when I hear it.
2) You don't have to spend a fortune to get a darn good sounding mandolin.
3) You don't have to spend a fortune to get a mandolin that looks really good.
4) You do have to spend some pretty serious cash to get both looks and tone.
5) I prefer slimmer, more traditionally shaped necks. This is the one area where a lot of builders miss the mark IMHO. I've played and owned some mandolins that sounded really good but the necks were so big they were most uncomfortable for me to play. And I've discovered that my hands can get used to a smaller than average neck easier than a bigger than average neck.
6) I like varnish finishes. Not necessarily for any tone "improvement" but I like the way they look and wear.
7) A really good player can make almost any mandolin sound good. A really average player (like me) benefits from having an easily playable and good sounding instrument.
8) An instrument I really like makes me want to play more and get better.
9) I really like F-style mandolins but I think they are highly overrated!! A-styles are usually half the price and sound just as good!
10) I like buying used.
11) At some point yo need to focus on the music and not the instrument. It's taken me a while but I'm there and finally happy with the mandos I have.
12) When the economy is good, buying and selling can be fun. I've learned a LOT by owning various instruments.
13) I have the greatest respect for mandolin builders. None of them are getting wealthy from what they do, yet they keep at it. It's truly a labor of love and I'm a little jealous that they make a living doing something they genuinely love.
14) Don't worry about what others are thinking and just PLAY!

[fredfrank]

As for tone, I've learned that the string silencers go on the tailpiece side of the bridge!

[bonny]

I love a beautiful instrument as much as anyone but my sound will always fundamentally live in my hands not the instrument.

[billkilpatrick]

i learned that wailing song and a good (mandolin) are the only things that i understand - poor boy!

[Pete Martin]

I don't worry what it says on the headstock, I just listen to the sound.

HOWEVER, the instruments I purchased just for the sound had the names Martin, Gibson, Old Wave and Gilchrist on the headstocks.;)

[GRW3]

Well you know what the princess said. "You gotta kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince!"

I am surprised by how much more I know about mandolin tone from just playing a lot of mandolins.

The more you play the more sophisticated your ear will get. You will be less likely to be distracted by a pretty face.

Don't buy or trade for any mandolin that does not sound at least as good green as the mandolin you have played in.

No one else can choose a mandolin for you, you have to do the work...

When someone asks for help with a starter mandolin evaluate it for playability not tone, they likely can't hear what you can and wouldn't want to pay for it anyway.

Buy the one that makes you sweat over it...

[JeffD]

I learned that in a blind taste test the killer tone and buttery playability often reside with the high end mandolins whose names you were trying not to be influenced by.

[allenhopkins]

1] Want several different tones? Buy several different mandolins. Keep all of them. Every single one.
2] Different strokes, as they say. What works in bluegrass may not in Celtic. First time I realized this was around 1989, when I determined I needed an F-2 as well as an F-5.
3] Some mandolins just seem to "fit" instantly. Others have a courtship period. Usually, though, it's worth the extra time and effort. If nothing develops, put that one in a case on a shelf. However, see Rule #1; all mandolins are "keepers."
4] Some day I've got to start trying different kinds of strings. There are "tone" results available there, but a lazy person (me) keeps throwing the same ol' strings back on the same ol' mandolins.
5] If you disregard Rule #1, and sell/trade/discard, the time will come when you wish bitterly you had that one back! Where's my Weymann Keystone State mandolute now that I need it...?

[Chris Biorkman]

I have learned that a big part of the enjoyment that I obtain from playing the mandolin is from the excitement I get from purchasing new instruments. I've kind of come to terms recently with the fact it doesn't matter how much I enjoy what I currently have, MAS will never go away. I love the two mandolins I now have and I know, logically speaking, that I would have a very hard time finding anything better, but it doesn't stop me from looking.

I have learned that it's unrealistic to expect an instrument to develop into a great instrument if it wasn't that way in the first place. It either has it or it doesn't IMO. I've learned what kind of tone I prefer and what I prefer playability wise. Like Shaun, I prefer slimmer necks and I think a lot of builders out there build clubby ones.

Finally, I've learned that my wife doesn't think mandolins occupy the same level on Maslow's hierarchy of needs as I think they do.

[literarymadness]

Actually, I have learned a lot from this thread and thank those members who were generous enough to post their experiences. I live in the Miami-Dade Metro area which is very mandolin deficient. There are no decent mandolins to cross-compare. Drive four to six hours north in the state and that somewhat changes. After owning a number of low-end mandolins, I bought a Gibson A-5L five years ago sight unseen from California and it has served me well. I finally took the plunge and put my name (and a deposit) on a high-end maker's list. My logic was to get the lowest price instrument (model "A1") from one of the highest-rated makers. As much as I love eye candy, a simple looking instrument (very little binding and orimentation) with great wood from a great maker should serve me well...at least that is what I have gotten from this thread. THANKS!! You guys have made me feel better about my purchase.

[Steve Ostrander]

I learned a lot from this site, and I learned a lot by making some mistakes.
1. You can't get a good-sounding new mando for less than $500.
2. A-style mandos give you more for your money. But I still like Fs.

[fredfrank]

But I still like Fs.


I like Fs, too. Reminds me of my old school report cards. Or perhaps it's because that's my initials - FF

One sentiment I would like to echo here, and I'm being serious for a change, is: if it doesn't sound good to you when you first play it, it won't change a whole lot later on.

Oh, I know a lot of folks say they will open up as you play 'em. But they don't change a whole lot in the first couple of years. I've owned extremely high end mandolins that didn't get better in the first two years of playing, and from now on, I don't buy one if it doesn't sound good -- NOW!

I'm gettin' too old to break in any more new ones, anyway.

[Willie]

In fifty plus years of playing I found that I will never think a mandolin is made that will satisfy me 100%, I always find something that I am not happy with ....I found that you should never purchase a mandolin that has some minor flaws and you think you can fix them or make them better....I do think that a picker should try different kinds of strings and a different thickness in picks...I also have found that string silencers don`t change anything, and I found that not all players will agree with things that I post on this board so most of the time I keep my keyboad silent here lately...
Willie

[Fretbear]

It's pretty easy to tell, if harder to locate or obtain;
A great mandolin will sound as good or better above the eighth fret, especially on the G and D strings, as a mediocre one will in open position. Knowing how to get (any) mandolin "to talk" will help as well.....

[grassrootphilosopher]

I found out that there is a mandolin for each genre of music while some mandolins are so versatile that they fit in many genres.

I found out that there are some really great mandolins and builders out there, some of which make a better mandolin than others.

I found out that my inexpensive (vintage) mandolin has qualities of its own that my expensive (newer) mandolin does not have and vice versa of course.

I found out that the prewar F 5 sound is something very special. I found out that without winning the lottery I will not be able to acquire a prewar F 5.

I found out that my expensive mandolin is extremely nice. I found out that it would take something like a musical earthquake to turn my focus/interest on a different mandolin. I am waiting for that moment to come.

[Tripp Johnson]

No matter how nice my mandolin may or may not be, it's just a tool serving the greater good of making music. Invest in good tools and keep them in good working order.

[John Flynn]

One dimension of MAS and tone that I've been thinking about is what I think of as "solo/miked tone" versus "ensemble/jam tone." Case in point: I think my overall best sounding mandolin is a Parsons flat-top that I only paid $250 for used. It's got a really sweet sound and it is incredibly even over the fretboard. I have received unsolicited compliments on the tone in multiple situations. But it's tone gets lost at a jam or in a big group, because it's not loud enough overall and just doesn't project forward very well.

On the other hand, I've played mandolins that I don't like the sound of nearly as well solo, but when you put them in an ensemble or at a jam, they can be heard, and the tone that breaks through sounds great when blended with the other instruments. Sometimes we talk about volume/projection as a separate category from tone, but if we're talking about what the listener, versus the player, actually gets to hear in combination with other instruments, I think it's a factor that needs to be considered.

This really hit home to me hearing a guy play a National RM-1 resonator mandolin at a session once. Solo, I think the Nationals have a great tone, but it's different and there are instruments that sound better to me played alone. But in this big, loud session, the tone sounded great, especially since he didn't have to "spank" the instrument to be heard. So my MAS is now focused on getting a National.

[David Anderson]

i learned that wailing song and a good (mandolin) are the only things that i understand - poor boy!

What about a greenback dollar?

[Nick Triesch]

I have learned that buying a good sounding mandolin (to me) is a c*** shoot. A $3000 mandolin can sound better than a $7000 mandolin and a $7000 mandolin can sound better than a $21,000 mandolin. While there are huge differences in build quality, a perfect mandolin can sound weak and thin with not much volume. I wish I found this out years ago. Nick

[John Kinn]

I have learned that there will always be mandolins out there that are better than the one(s) you own, thus keeping MAS alive.
I have also realised that I love my old A-style Gibson for functioning on all kinds of music(bluegrass,celtic,rock),and for having a dark,woody,balanced tone.So this old lady keeps my MAS at low level, but it's still there...
So I still search the attics and lofts in old houses, hoping to find....something nice:)