It Came to Them So Easily, They Wound Up Failures [Archive]

mandocrucian

Aug-14-2009, 12:49pm

This isn't really "Theory & Technique," but it seems more appropriate to place this here than in "General Mandolin Discussions", which it even less of. But watching (again) the Chet Baker documentary, Let's Get Lost brings this issue to mind.

Regarding Baker, there will be the "another great player lost to drugs" reaction, and while that is true, my reaction is that the dope was only the symptomatic means to blowing it. The guy was a natural; he never had to bust his hiney practicing to get good. It came to him too easily, and that was the problem. Same for Art Pepper.

It's not just in music; you've all seen this before in various forms. There's the junior high school star basketball player who fizzles out 4 or 5 years later. I've seen guys with 5 times the natural athletic abilities (in comparison with me) come and go through the karate studio lasting only a couple of years. They get to a certain point where they can throw some good kicks and punches and decide that they've really got a handle on it and quit before they ever make it to a deeper level(s).

The person gets good (at whatever) without really having to put in a lot of effort, then whatever acclaim they get starts swelling up their ego. It's not that much of a bigger deal (to them) than having their dump in the morning. And the younger the age, the worse the feedback cycle is. They can become inssufferable and arrogant little jerks.....it' not so much in their thought processes that they, for some reason have an innate ability for the task/sport/etc, but that everyone else just sucks and are therefore inferiorities that, at best, are to be tolerated. It's like spoiled little rich kids who get everything handed to them as opposed to the less moneyed kids who have to actually have to work to acquire the car, or the chops, and have some appreciation for what they've been able to buy, or accomplish.

The musicians who sem to be able to coast through things without putting in a lot of effort - it doesn't surprise me that they get bored and end up drinking, drugging, orgying, gambling, or whatever thrillseeking helps relieve the tedium of it all. Some of them can/will come out of the tailspin, but others just crash & burn though it may be a long drawn out descent.

NH

SternART

Aug-14-2009, 1:10pm

Or possibly they compare themselves to the "very" best and don't think they will ever get there.

Everyone goes through a process of finding out who they are, coming to grips with their limitations, etc. I know I started out as an architect......and was a darn good one.....but realized that the business of architecture and the process of the profession made it difficult for young architects to be creative, as there was a long apprenticeship and State tests ahead. Some think I sold out, wasted my talent......I know my parents did. But even with my talent I just didn't think I was meant to be an architect. I went back to school this time in Art towards a Masters, and haven't looked back. My parents are gone now, but I hope they eventually realized my talent was not wasted. Everyone's path is different.

With the Jazz artists I think they all looked towards the great improvisors........Bird, Trane, Davis
and many tried to emulate their lifestyle as a requirement to free themselves to be able to improvise. Unfortunately many got in over their heads. Possibly they wanted to be "the best" and comparing themselves to their heros they didn't think they had it.......just like an athlete might take steroids.......they thought maybe the lifestyle was part of being able to play like that. Drugs is just one vehicle, others can find the same levels on consciousness from hard work and practicing, or even something like meditation.

Creativity is a spiritual thing, as well as accepting who you are and doing the best you can within your limitations. Some are just artists trying to find their place...... or looking for the right medium to express themselves.

Even looking at it mandolinistically....not many can have technique like Thile, versatility like Marshall, the ability to write tunes like Grisman. To be in that league requires a gift as well as a lifetime of hard work and commitment. Even without the real world issues like earning a living, or supporting a family.......not everyone gets to follow their passion, or find out how good they could be. Daunting task to set your sights on any creative career.......especially comparing yourself to the best. I applaud anyone who is passionate about being some kind of artist, and makes a life of being the best artist they can be..... and who can also find equilibrium in life.

Niles brings up interesting points for consideration about not reaching your potential as a musician, or athlete, or an artist.........but the dedication required of this kind of life isn't for everyone.

Mandomax

Aug-14-2009, 1:22pm

"I believe in things that are developed through hard work. I always like people who have developed long and hard, especially through introspection and a lot of dedication. I think what they arrive at is usually a much deeper and more beautiful thing than the person who seems to have that ability and fluidity from the beginning. I say this because it's a good message to give to young talents who feel as I used to."
Bill Evans wrote that, and it has certainly kept me going. What's ironic is that Bill Evans was a practice fiend, but also a junkie. Odd juxtaposition. Niles, I agree with the idea you espoused above. Well written post

pigpen

Aug-14-2009, 1:31pm

So the corollary to your statement is "I failed often enough to become a success"?

I think you are onto something. Knowing how to handle failure is as important as any skill I can think of. Maybe Chet/Art/choose your own tortured artist on drugs... found the substance was one of their only ways of coping when they were eventually met with some of the real or percieved failures that we all experience. Or, as Nils points out, maybe they were just seeking that next thrill that music couldn't give 'em anymore when it became "too easy".

I like this personally since music has never been one of those instant connection-type things for me. It has always required much love and commitment to get my modest skills. However, I betcha Chet/Art/et al had plenty of love and commitment for the music to make it as far as they did. They had plenty of stuff get in the way along the way, and they were still able to perform despite addiction, personal crisis... I don't know tons about either of their biographies, but wasn't music something they were both still doing until the end at a pretty high level after much else had already been lost to them through their bad decisions?

Fretbear

Aug-14-2009, 1:41pm

300win

Aug-14-2009, 1:48pm

I have seen this happen. The main person I think about that this tragedy { for that is what it is } is Jimmy Arnold, one of the finest Bluegrass musicians that has ever lived. He came from southwest Virginia and was way ahead of everybody on any instrument. One time the story is told that at a festival he was picking the banjo and Earl Scriggs wassaid to have commented, "I believe I just better listen to this boy ". Jimmy grew up playing with Wesly Goldyn of Boone Creek fame with Ricky Scaggs. Anyway Jimmy could outpick anybody on anything, and sadly he turned to drugs and died at a young age. He could have been one of the most famous pickers of all time if not for that.

mandocrucian

Aug-14-2009, 2:00pm

Perhaps I should have used the term "loser" rather than "failure".

As far as drugs go, there are plenty of musicians who could "coexist" with getting high without it ruining their playing. The Bill Evans quote was quite good, because it parallels my point. The drugs aren't the issue, it's working at getting better at your craft.

The natural ability can be thought of as a "head start". But that "head start" only keeps you ahead for so long. It's Aesop's the tortoise and the hare fable. (paraphrasing) Thomas Edison: "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration."

Confounding the issue further is in what area does one become a "loser"? Hey, I really like Chet Baker's playing. It wasn't like he lost his chops and couldn't play well later on. But in terms of his life (beyond the specifics of what he played onstage or in the studio), he was a pretty sad case, and I'd say he brought most of it on himself.

Now Parker, yeah he died an old man at 35, but the guy practiced a lot to get good. (read Bird Lives). Hendrix lived and slept with his guitar in hand, as did SRV. There are plenty of tales of the excesses taking over, and sometimes they wake up and pull out of the tailspin, sometimes it gets them.

But there's the question of whether you coast through on the "head start" or do you work at improving like everyone else, albeit from a much higher initial level?

BTW: I don't have any problems with the person who decides, "I really don't want to do this anymore - I'll do something different." I thought Michael Jordan taking a shot at baseball was admirable.

NH

John Flynn

Aug-14-2009, 2:33pm

Another point to be made is that there have been studies on prodigies in various fields, including musical performance. They have looked at a lot of possible variables, including overall aptitude, dexterity, reasoning ability, and lots of other things. What the prodigies seem to have in common is an appetite for practice, or "perspiration" around their field of expertise. So practicing five hours a day, or whatever, is comfortable for them, maybe even enjoyable. I also think that starting early makes a difference. Prodigies or "naturals" may make it look easy, but I still think they have to put in the time to get there. I can't imagine anyone just picking up an instrument and being good at it without putting time in.

As for being self-destructive, that can happen to anyone, the talented and non-talented alike, the people for whom success came "easy" and the people for whom it didn't. In my military and corporate career, I have been required to take a fair amount of training on substance abuse detection, prevention and mitigation. What they teach you is that the casual observer cannot predict who could be an addict, alcoholic or other disfunctional personality by the way they've acted, performed or related to others in the past. It can happen to anyone you know.

John McGann

Aug-14-2009, 2:39pm

I'm glad you mentioned Art Pepper. His biography "Straight Life" (an extremely humorous title if you read the book) is a harrowing read about just what Niles is talking about. One of Pepper's most famous and appreciated sessions (Moonlight in Vermont?) was done strung-out and against his will with a damaged horn, from having never cleaned it or removed the mouthpiece from the last time he played it, and which had lay untouched like that for months and months before the session.

The session you speak of was with Miles' rhythm section of the time in the 50's, a nice record called "Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section". "Straight Life" chronicles the whole thing...

"Moonlight In Vermont" is actually Stan Getz, who also had lifelong bouts with the dark side but was an incredibly beautiful player...

JeffD

Aug-14-2009, 2:54pm

But there's the question of whether you coast through on the "head start" or do you work at improving like everyone else, albeit from a much higher initial level?

Really an important observation. Most quality college engineering programs will attest that a straight A high school student is often at more risk of not making it through college than the solid B student who has evidenced the ability to work at it. Many a straight A student had, for what ever reason, a "head start" over his fellow students in high school and came to college unprepared to work hard.

The irony is that you would expect a head start to be a motivator, "hey, I have a shot, its not a waste of time for me to work hard at this."

Charley wild

Aug-14-2009, 3:19pm

I've read that during the late 40's and 50's there was a school of thought among some jazz musicians that using heroin was "essential" if one was going to be in a league with Bird, etc. They had to feel what he and others who did drugs felt in order to play the music. It sounds crazy but some felt they doing what needed to be done. Stevie Ray Vaughn said that the thing that scared him most about cleaning up was they he wouldn't be able to play as well he did on drugs. SRV cleaned up, Miles cleaned up, Clapton cleaned up. Some people it seems just can't. Who knows why? I've known self destructive people in all walks of life. Talented or not.

Charley wild

Aug-14-2009, 3:21pm

I've read that during the late 40's and 50's there was a school of thought among some jazz musicians that using heroin was "essential" if one was going to be in a league with Bird, etc. They had to feel what he and others who did drugs felt in order to play the music. It sounds crazy but some felt they doing what needed to be done. Stevie Ray Vaughn said that the thing that scared him most about cleaning up was they he wouldn't be able to play as well he did on drugs. SRV cleaned up, Miles cleaned up, Clapton cleaned up, Ray Charles cleaned up. Some people it seems just can't. Who knows why? I've known self destructive people in all walks of life. Talented or not.

mandohack

Aug-14-2009, 6:08pm

I don't think it is as simple as a natural gift leads to boredom leads to "the darkside". It has been said that a lot of artist types tend to have "issues" and this is sometimes the source of their gifts. Maybe this isn't true statistically, the average guy doesn't get the headlines like a celebrity. Drugs alter perception and a creative person may draw from those experiences to develop ideas and viewpoints about their craft and the world around them. Of course this can and has been taken too far by many where it becomes a burden and detriment to life and the creative process. I think it just comes down to individual personalities, some have gifts and will go places without a hitch. Some have gifts as well as "issues" and will have their ups and downs and maybe ultimately crash and burn. And the same can be said for us average people too.

farmerjones

Aug-14-2009, 7:38pm

Don Stiernberg

Aug-14-2009, 8:17pm

Interesting points. Thanks again Niles and all...

It seems to me Chet Baker did grow as an artist. If he became bored early on it didn't keep him from evolving musically. He seemed to get better at conveying the emotion or essence of a song even as his voice, embouchure, and very life were rapidly crumbling...

I think the music was the only thing he took seriously, and perhaps the only thing he knew how to do. Perhaps he didn't feel worthy of the gift he'd been given..

I used to wonder at these discrepancies more--how does the most beautiful music come from the most messed up lives? Bix Beiderbecke, Jack Teagarden, Pee Wee Russel, Charlie Parker, John Lennon, Frank Sinatra, Stan Getz, John Coltrane, Ray Charles..I guess even Mozart "enjoyed a cocktail". I've never been able to figure it out, and it's difficult, but I try to avoid biographical knowledge when listening and just hear the music..

When the book Deep In a Dream came out, there was a tour that came to the Green Mill here in Chicago. As a Chet fan I had to go, plus a couple colleagues were on the band. I got there early and there was a line around the block! The man had been gone a decade and a half, but he was still filling the clubs! His son turned up, claiming the book was all lies, trying to disrupt the show. He was removed and the music continued...

Dig that record My Favorite Songs...Chet and a European Orchestra, near the end of his life. The melody lines are intense. No boredom there, but I'm sure he could barely find the gig and it probably hurt to play..

These are just the musings of a hopeless Chet head. Niles, your initial observation about naturals is intriguing indeed. And thanks again for letting us know about "Let's Get Lost". It's one of my favorite tunes, but one of the saddest movies...

Soupy1957

Aug-15-2009, 5:04am

Chet Baker is another sad example of wasted talent that need not be. How he ended up on the rails of a fence below his hotel room will never be known for sure, but it may NOT have been drugs at all.
Such a sad loss.

-Soupy1957

J.Albert

Aug-15-2009, 8:50am

bonny

Aug-15-2009, 9:44am

other than a circle, i don't know where we're heading here.
Everybody's different.
The human brain's an amazing thing.
For every case there is an exception.
Inteligence or talent doesn't guarentee happiness, in fact often the opposite.

Who's more frustrated, the confused, or the aware?

The aware....no wait, the confused? People who're aware they're confused?
I see one of the problems (and a source of my own chronic depression and past drug use) as the difficulty of not finding the balance of artistic desire and what we typically define as "success". A couple of years ago I ran into a friend and great musician who complimented me on my recent success in my non-musical career. I said thanks but I'd trade all that money for the success he'd had as a bass player. His response was, "I'm successful? Yeah, I guess I am....I don't have to play with sh**ty drummers anymore". Wish I'd understood that definition of success when I was 19.

Rick Schmidlin

Aug-15-2009, 10:09am

Yes there there are sad stories and waste. Then there are musicans like my ol friend McCoy Tyner. Never took drugs ,never drank to access, and was a fmaily man. He once told me the reason he did get involved in these vices was he did not want to let his mother down who paid for his lesson and believed in him. He also got to to see what had happened to neiborhood hero Bud Powel. He still tours today!

Jim Broyles

Aug-15-2009, 10:32am

Maybe I'm one of the fortunate ones. It came easy to me too, but I realized early on that I was not a prodigy, just a pretty good player with a good ear and with a good sense of rhythm. Other people, like parents and friends thought I was much better than I thought I was. I was called "the best" guitarist on the scene where I lived when I was in high school, but the summer I graduated, my family moved. To make a long story short, I auditioned for a couple of bands in my new area and I quickly found out how much I didn't know. I had wanted to make performing/recording a career, but I was taken down a few pegs by that realization, at 17/18. So I played in some bands, was usually the best musician in my bands and always wondered what might have happened had I pursued music as a career instead of getting married at 19. I believe that, in the cosmic sense, maybe I was protected from drugs and debauchery, because knowing myself and my appetites for pleasure, I may have headed in that direction as a full time musician. Now, I know how good I am and also how good I'm not, and I know how to be part of a music making entity and add to the total goodness of the sound, unlike my approach at 17.

Michael Gowell

Aug-15-2009, 10:35am

Interesting thread. But it went in a different direction than I anticipated - Nils' observations re personality problems caused by being a young gifted player. I've wondered at the pressures on barely-teenaged musicians who become "sensations" and find themselves onstage with pros and the focus of concert and festival crowds. I hope among those pros are some good friends and advisors.

From personal experience, a great artist can be - maybe even is likely to be - so distracted by their gift that they become a poor parent and an absent partner. Following a muse has consequences.

John McGann

Aug-15-2009, 11:32am

John Flynn wrote:
"I can't imagine anyone just picking up an instrument and being good at it without putting time in."

There is a story about Mark O'Connor - which I think I recall reading right here on the cafe - winning a mandolin contest, after never really having played the instrument much beforehand. Just picked it up, "fiddled" with it a bit (pun intended), and started playing.

As I said, just a story I heard.
But considering Mr. O'Connor's talents, entirely believeable.

- John

Well, he had already been playing for awhile by the time he 'just' picked up a mando- if you can play guitar and fiddle on his level, mando is going to be 2nd nature anyway.

Talent like his doesn't come around all that often...he has an incredible physical gift to play fiddle as he does, but he did work on it a bit as well, even if he claims to have quit practicing at 14 :disbelief: I'm pretty sure he had 6 years of hard labor behind him at that point. He's doing a residency at Berklee this fall, so I can ask him...

Desnosfan

Aug-15-2009, 3:07pm

One of the interesting aspects I find about this thread is that it could've easily been posted on a website discussing painting, writing, or even NFL couching. Really, in order to be great, really, really great, a person often finds themselves completely obsessed with the medium where one wants to succeeded. This is not something new, John Keats, who died in his twenties believing he was a failure, often want to extremes in his writings. If you consider the two most innovated musicians of the late twenty century, Coltrane and Hendrix, both of them not only struggled with their own drug addiction, but also with a personality that made their music an obstacle in their personal life. On a side note, there is a story of Coltrane practicing while in his hotel room and watching "I love Lucy" while his bus was suppose to be leaving. When his manager, (it could've been Jones, but it's not important) opened the door, Coltrane was flying through scales with blood dripping from both sides of his mouth. Really, I'm wondering if it wasn't because the music came easy to them, I'm wondering if it was because the music finally didn't leave anything else for them.

barney 59

Aug-15-2009, 10:13pm

John McGann

Aug-16-2009, 7:00am

a quote attributed to a famous actress (maybe apocryphal):

"When you've died, you've lost a very important part of your life".

Bertram Henze

Aug-16-2009, 8:26am

I think the more you feature other people's lives, the less you feature your own. Fame means other people's opinions determine how you feel, your life's purpose is diluted in vanity and you're nothing but a jack-in-the-box to be released at showtime. I think there comes a point when a famous person becomes aware of that emptiness - like a cartoon character who walks over a cliff edge but doesn't fall until he notices.

I am grateful that only a few friends hear me playing, not the remaining six billion strangers.

Bertram

SternART

Aug-16-2009, 10:06am

I don't understand this thread --what losers or failures are we talking about? Everyone mentioned made an indelible mark and will be remembered and studied for years to come. I have and enjoy Chet Baker recordings but I've never known anything about his life other than he was good looking and was photographed with beautiful woman and was one hell of a musician.

I'm an artist, and play mandolin so I have another passion besides making art......and I've always been fascinated by reading biographies of artists and musicians. When I find someone's work that really speaks to me, and I'm talking about to my very core......I want to learn everything I can about them, to try & understand how they got to where they could create like that. The research is more difficult if they have passed on.... I start with researching all the art or music I can find.......even visiting museums around the country to see art in person. Then reading an autobiography if one exists, or a biography is the next step. Or finding people that worked with or knew the artist/musician might be another step. Learning about other artist's lives is a way for me to better understand my own, and a way for me to find my own voice as an artist. Who did they study with? Did they have mentors, or patrons who had an impact on their lives? Who inspired them? What was it like to live in their time? Who did they hang out with? I find that a lot of the artists who inspire me, hung out with other creative people of their time, and I might find another biography to read.

After all if some creation (art/music) really speaks to my very core, there must be something about it, something in the intellect or spirit of the artist that is also possibly inside me. My quest for this kind of knowledge is a lifelong quest, that continues to inspire my own creativity. It is interesting to see, for example that artists who ended up very well regarded, possibly were ahead of their time, and had a difficult time. Or others who were gifted from the start, like the beginning of this thread.....and found easy success, I think it is interesting to see how they responded.........and what they created. For me knowing about the person, helps me understand the art/music on a deeper level.

Don Stiernberg

Aug-16-2009, 7:18pm

Well said Arthur....

I'm the same about the biographies--that's about all I read other than the sports page.

How do you reconcile beautiful creations coming from troubled souls or people whose lives seem so wrought with problems? That's the one that baffles me...listening to a Bix or Bird solo, for example,then considering that they unfortunately had only a tenuous grip on their own lives....

Chet Baker's biography Deep In A Dream was very informative, like learning that one of his first big gigs was playing for Jack Teagarden, who also played one beautiful soulful melody after another and also suffered from substance problems. Some of these books are hard to read, they're so sad, and we know what the ending is going in. But like yourself I don't like to miss them in case there's one granule of info that might lead to more understanding of where all the beauty came from...

SternART

Aug-16-2009, 8:24pm

How do you reconcile beautiful creations coming from troubled souls or people whose lives seem so wrought with problems? That's the one that baffles me...

Here is my take on it Donnie........I can make my best art when I have any "deep" feeling........it could be great happiness at a birth or great sadness upon a friend's death. As an artist I try to tap into my emotions.....for example, falling in love is a good one for spawning creativity. Anything that gets to my core being in an intense way, has the potential to be the catalyst for some great "from the heart" art. Being unhappy as a musician maybe go for that minor key sounding blues groove, or for a visual artist paint in somber colors, paint dark until you are ready to come into the light again If artists are sensitive, and maybe wear their heart on their sleeve, they are possibly closer to, or able to tap into their emotions easier than others. How many times have we said a musician "really played it from the heart"?! Both good and bad energy in your life can be the seed of creativity. I liken it to art therapy......I know both making art & playing music have the ability to make me connect with my emotions.......really "feel", and I try to use them as a vehicle to feel better. Troubled souls are trying to find the light too.

Paul Kotapish

Aug-17-2009, 12:43pm

There is a lot of research and discussion in the education world right now about the issue of innate ability (talent, IQ, etc.) versus effort in developing long-term success in academics, athletics, and the arts.

One interesting phenomenon is that many kids who achieve high scores on tests at a young age and are rewarded by acknowlegment of their intelligence and talent tend to have a harder time maintaining excellence and achievement over time than kids who score more modestly initially but are rewarded for their persistent effort and hard work. One hypothesis is that kids who believe that they are naturally gifted become increasingly afraid to try anything that might result in failure, and a psychology dominated by the notion that "I'm smart, so I shouldn't have to try too hard to be good at this." When such kids hit the inevitable wall, they aren't equipped to work hard to make their way over it.

There are some interesting essays on this in Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell's recent book about extraordinary success. In an essay about musical excellence, he cites the 10,000-hour rule, that suggests that the key to real mastery in arts and athletics is to spend 10,000 hours woodshedding. The apparent "overnight" success of phenoms such as the Beatles is usally predated by thousands of hours playing, practicing, and performing in obscurity.

I'm not sure how drugs work into it, or if they are necessarily a one-way street to failure. I'm sure we all know some great musicians who depend on drugs to make it through life and still crank out great music--killer players who get high first thing in the morning and work hard on their music all day long and really deliver in the recording studio and concert stage. I'm certainly not advocating drug use for anyone, but I suspect that many of the musicians whose lives are ruined by drugs would have found another way to ruin them if they hadn't discovered drugs.

farmerjones

Aug-17-2009, 3:43pm

While Academia pays lips service to the arts, what we really want are drones. Good solid workers.

From my hobbist's point of view; i put in about 18 hours a week, between play and practice. Slightly less than 1000 hrs. annually. So it would take 10 years to reach this milestone.
Let's double that dedication, to 36 hours a week. Or give yourself a few hours a day to sleep. A few minutes for a stale donut and a cup of coffee. Pretty soon, bills don't get paid, things don't get washed, and mates don't get attended. To most folks that would spell trouble. To the chosen few, it's a price that's paid, but may not even be considered. I think alot of good art could be done if society would truely leave artists to create. Drugs of one form or another, for the artist, are for escape or relief from being bothered.
Wait a minute. That doesn't just count for the artist.

P.S. Let's extrapolate those hours in a day to greater than 24. Let's imagine that society isn't the monkey-on-the-back, but the artistic mission. So consuming, that the only relief is artificial. Quite possible indeed.

stop thinking about Micheal Jackson :))