Bluegrass Hammers

[Bob Stolkin]

Question for the bluegrassers.

Do you use hammers and pulls, or do you pick every note? I use them a lot on guitar, but on mando I've always tended to pick everything.

Just curious what others are doing.

[Jim Broyles]

I use them but I don't think about it, I just do it so I can't tell you exactly when I'd use them.

[AlanN]

I use the hammer/p-o often, especially when doing the classic Monroe lick:

in A chord, play open A string, fret 3 on A, then hammer/p-o 2-3-2 to open A, then E string open.

Tough to write out, but it's the very common Monroe lick.

[Jim Broyles]

I'll hammer on from the minor to the major 3rd a lot.

[300win]

I thought hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides etc. were part of picking, What am I missing here ?

[woodwizard]

I thought hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides etc. were part of picking, What am I missing here ?

Absolutely... my thoughts as well :mandosmiley:

[Bob Stolkin]

I thought hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides etc. were part of picking, What am I missing here ?

That's what I always thought, too. Playing guitar, you have to use them a lot to play fast and smooth. But, my first teacher, a well-known local long-time bluegrass player, espouses the notion that you have to pretty much pick every note to get real power, and that hammers and pulls were too "weak" sounding for bluegrass. I didn't really think to question him, because he's a hell of a player.

While picking everything has helped me to develop speed, there are certain things I just can't seem to do fast enough without using hammers and pulls, so I was wondering what others were doing.

[mrmando]

Mike Marshall advises against hammer-ons and pull-offs in his workshops.
Simon Mayor recommends them in his workshops.

[Mike Bunting]

What's a bluegrass hammer (on)? Is it different than I might use in another style of music?

[Bob Stolkin]

What's a bluegrass hammer (on)? Is it different than I might use in another style of music?

No. Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Hammers in Bluegrass".

[mrmando]

No. Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Hammers in Bluegrass".
In that case, only a nine-pound hammer will do.

[Charley wild]

Mike Marshall advises against hammer-ons and pull-offs in his workshops.
Simon Mayor recommends them in his workshops.

Ahhh, the experts. On every instrument I've attempted to play there has always been expert "A" who says YES! And expert "B" who says NO!
Some body should kick both "A" & "B" right square in the you-know-what!:mad:

[Mike Bunting]

[QUOTE Some body should kick both "A" & "B" right square in the you-know-what!:mad:[/QUOTE]

With a hammer!

[AlanN]

I'll have to go back and listen, but I think Mike is all over h-o/p-o on some of his breaks on Dawg tunes - Cedar Hill and the opening track on Dawg 80 come to mind. Maybe he has 'seen the light' since then.

[woodwizard]

I was just thinking about all the hammer on /pull offs that the Dawg uses and it seems to work and sound plenty powerful to me. :confused:

[250sc]

There is a certain drive to picking every note but hammer on/pull offs are used. I view it kind of like right hand down strokes. They add a certain drive but I won't kill myself to try to only use down strokes if something else works for me.

[mandozilla]

Hammer-ons, slides, pull-offs and bends...absolutely! If you don't use them your bluegrass won't be very bluesy...I like my bluegrass mandolin picking with plenty of blues licks, notes and what not...I use fewer Hammer-ons, slides, pull-offs and bends when picking fiddle tunes, way more single note picking. :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:

[300win]

I don't care what the "big" names say, if you can pick it and it sounds good wjhat differance does it make ? Sometimes I think these guys are yanking beginners legs just to make some extra $.

[Bob Stolkin]

Good input, guys, thanks. I was thinking about it when I was working on Big Sciota last night, at a reasonably scorching tempo (as my buddies tend to play it). There are a couple of runs I've worked out that I like, but just cannot execute without putting in a few hammer-ons. I can either beat my brains out trying to get it down with every note picked, or just play the @#$% music and move on. Thanks for letting me move on.

[OldSausage]

This anecdote about Mike Marshall seems highly implausible to me. Hammer-ons are where it's at. Slides also. And pull-offs.

[mandocrucian]

Ahhh, the experts. Some body should kick both "A" & "B" right square in the you-know-what!

Sounds like somebody woke up on the screamy side of the the town hall meeting! :))

The "experts" (and no the poseurs) will usually offer advice within a context, and can give you the rationales for and/or against. This just demonstrates that they've thought about the subject a lot.

Personally, (with the exception of the Irish tenor banjo approach to mandolin*) I've grown to dislike the every-note-with-the pick sound more and more every year. Given the choice between a (bluegrass) tune, or a solo, being played with the exact same notes, on either a mandolin or fiddle, I'd much rather hear it on the fiddle. Why? Because, I think/feel that how the notes are connected together is as important as what notes are played. If a fiddler were to play everything with every note on a different bowstroke, I would throw up. Most people would say "that guy sucks" because it is so monotonous. (They instinctively know it is boring because they are so used to hearing fiddle played with bowings and slurs, and by comparison, the saw strokes just ain't getting it.)

I generally don't want to play everything with pickstrokes, because that's not how my mind's ear "hears" things. It's much more likely I'm hearing the phrasing in a fiddlistic way, or as if played by an an electric guitarist. But the question did refer to the bluegrass context, and in that situation, again, the fiddle phrasing will sound "right", or else the Clarence White "I Am A Pilgrim" mucho slurring guitar approach.

But that's my tastes. You do whatever it is that gets you the type of sound that you prefer. (Unless you play in a dictatorially run band, in which case you get to play it the way the boss wants to hear it! :crying:

(*but if I'm going to do that, I might as well do it on a tenor banjo and be able to hear myself and cut through the racket.)

NH

[mrmando]

This anecdote about Mike Marshall seems highly implausible to me.
Right, I just made it up. I didn't really take his workshop, or if I did, I wasn't listening. :mad::disbelief:

Hammer-ons are where it's at. Slides also. And pull-offs.
I use hammer-ons and slides a fair amount; pull-offs probably less so, but I'm sure I've used them as well.

Mike didn't say anything against slides. But he did state that his preference was to pick every note ... which is another way of saying "No hammer-ons or pull-offs." I remember him saying this, precisely because it is not what I expected him to say.

[JeffD]

I thought hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides etc. were part of picking, What am I missing here ?

Dosn't it depend on the genre? In bluegrass perhaps, and even a lot of old time music, hammer-ons and pull-offs can be considered part of what you do - you know - part of the normal playing style. Sort of automatic.

But there is a whole lot of music where a hammer-on or pull-off rare or non-existant, in which case if you are used to an automatic hammer-on style you will trip over inappropriate hammer-ons and pull-offs and it will get in the way.

[woodwizard]

It's just embellishments to me and if done right enhances a solo. IMHO... Sometimes they fit sometimes they don't etc.

[GTG]

I find them harder to do (and sound good) than on guitar, but generally easier than picking at speed. Therefore I find them to be a bit of a crutch, especially for triplet embellishments during an 8th note passage. That said, I agree with Niles that there's a certain slurring sound that is impossible (or merely very difficult?) to get when picking everything.

So when doing drills I try to pick everything because it's good right hand practice. When noodling or performing I try to play what sounds best, which tends to include HO's and PU's.

[adgefan]

Right, I just made it up. I didn't really take his workshop, or if I did, I wasn't listening. :mad::disbelief:

I use hammer-ons and slides a fair amount; pull-offs probably less so, but I'm sure I've used them as well.

Mike didn't say anything against slides. But he did state that his preference was to pick every note ... which is another way of saying "No hammer-ons or pull-offs." I remember him saying this, precisely because it is not what I expected him to say.

I have taken a couple of classes with Mike and can confirm he likes every note to be as strong and clean as the rest. He advised to pick most notes and only do hammer-ons/pull-offs if you can make them sound as strong as the rest of the tune. He also taught us a tune with some short chromatic runs in and taught us to use a separate finger on each fret, since sliding between the notes would weaken them.

But then he also acknowledged he is very much from a bluegrass/American background and others may play things differently. Caterina Lichtenberg was at one of the workshops and her technique was far removed from Mike's, and you could tell he was intrigued by the differences. He also mentioned how Vasen tell him off for swinging his eighth notes!

[AlanN]

Somebody mentioned the tune Big Sciota. I ran through it this morning and purposely threw in a lot of hammer/pull-offs over the I-V opening measures. They fit very well. And used the Jethro super pull-off at the beginning B part, from the B note (E string) down. I think that will be the new thing for a while.

[Bob Stolkin]

Somebody mentioned the tune Big Sciota. I ran through it this morning and purposely threw in a lot of hammer/pull-offs over the I-V opening measures. They fit very well. And used the Jethro super pull-off at the beginning B part, from the B note (E string) down. I think that will be the new thing for a while.

Thanks Alan, that was I (the OP) that mentioned Big S. I did the same last night, and liked the way it sounded. Smoothed it out. The key is getting max value from the notes.

Can you describe the Jethro lick a little more? Would like to try it.

[AlanN]

I'll try.

On Jethro's Tune, the opening lick is a descending line where he places his pinky on A - fret 5 on E string - (tune is in Dm), and pulls off with fingers 4,3,2,1 to the open E string. That's the basic lick.

For BS, the first measure of B part ends up on B note (fret 7 on E string). So, with pinky there, I pull off to fret 2, then run a triplet up to fret 5 (A note), all on the E string, with fingers 1,2,3,4.

Tough to write out (and tougher yet to pick :mandosmiley:)

[pickloser]

I got some good advice about Jethro's pull off technique in this thread. Don Stiernberg's advice is post #13.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50721&highlight=Jethro%27s+Tune