Sitka vs Adirondack spruce top?

[astroboy]

I've seen mandolin models supposedly "upgraded" from a Sitka spruce top to an Adirondack spruce top, for about $200 in a ~$1100 retail price mandolin.

Some questions for those more experienced than I ...

What's the assumed affect to the tone of the same instrument (oval or f hole) resulting from the different wood? Do people generally believe that the "upgrade" is noticeable and worthwhile for people looking for this tonal effect? Are there any other effects that changing to an Adirondack spruce top would have?

Thanks for any insight ...


Richard

[Spruce]

I've seen mandolin models supposedly "upgraded" from a Sitka spruce top to an Adirondack spruce top, for about $200 in a ~$1100 retail price mandolin.

I won't comment on the tonal comparisons of the two woods (I've done so at length on these pages), but I will have a go at the economical side of things...

Charging more for a Red Spruce top in a mandolin is absurd, whether you are a tonewood dealer, or mandolin maker...

In a guitar with a two-piece Red Spruce top, yes, charge that 200.00 upgrade due to the fact that Picea rubens is not a large spruce (44" is the largest diameter I ever milled), and guitar tops are rare indeed, especially compared to Sitkas, which commonly reach 6-8 feet in diameter and more....

But finding trees that will make mandolin tops is not all that difficult if you live in the area.
Hell, a 20" diameter tree will work just fine...

In a lot of ways, the builders are the ones driving tonewood pricing--pricing that builders tend to (hypocritically in many cases) gripe about later on down the line...

Start charging premium prices (sometimes 3-4 times what market value is) for a species upgrade in an instrument--Brazilian Rosewood comes to mind--and you'll find the tonewood supplier will do the same...

Some folks who work with chainsaws and sawmills can read... ;)

[Chuck Naill]

Charging more for a Red Spruce top in a mandolin is absurd, whether you are a tonewood dealer, or mandolin maker...

It's not absurd at all. Red spruce has a real or imagined mystique and the consumer right now is willing to pay more for it.

Also, finding nice tight grained red spruce, personal preference noted, is not easy to find. Many builders are not even interested in the best, but the cheapest red they can find.

[frankenstein]

you got it Spruce.. I don't mind paying a little more for rare, exquisite or old pieces of wood. Ordinary wood should not have extraordinary prices . as far as species goes they all have their advantages, just different not better..

[Spruce]

It's not absurd at all. Red spruce has a real or imagined mystique and the consumer right now is willing to pay more for it.

Also, finding nice tight grained red spruce, personal preference noted, is not easy to find. Many builders are not even interested in the best, but the cheapest red they can find.


Somebody want to start a thriving business in these troubled economic times?

Know how to run a chain saw, jointer, and bandsaw?

Live in Northern Maine or, better yet, the East Coast of Canada??

Because "nice tight grained red spruce" (or the medium-grained stuff that is my personal preference) is very easy to find for mandolin tops, and apparently no one is filling that niche at a reasonable price these days...

Guitar tops?
Well, that's another story entirely... ;)

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

i'm going out to look at the trees tomorrow, Spruce! But they are still, in my minds eye, not yet ready. Blessed with abundant Maple and Spruce, i wish i had the knowledge/wherewithall to get it to those of you who could do something more with it than i can. Maples have some diameter going on, but those Red Spruces have some growing (hopefully) to do to reach those parameters.

[Keith Newell]

I agree with Spruce. From the builder standpoint on a mandolin the prices for both are within about 30% so to charge that much is amazing unless the builders grandfather grew the Adirondack from a seedling and watered it every day and it has a huge sentimental value. The two species are my favorite and I like them each for what they bring to the final product.
Keith Newell
hmmm seems I need to change my website link
http://www.newellmandolins.com

[Fretbear]

John Monteleone has said that in the years before he was able to secure a good supply of Adi that met his standards, that he used to use German (European) viola wedges and found them to be excellent for mandolin tops and very similar to Adirondack.

[Michael Lewis]

Good tone wood is good tone wood. I find that I like both red and sitka spruces as well as European. Certainly there is a range of quality within each species but if you choose well you will not be disappointed with these varieties. There is also redwood, Port Orford Cedar, western red cedar, Alaska cedar, and the list goes on for suitable tone woods.

"The Market" tends to dictate what we use. As an example, who of you will buy an F style mandolin made with woods other than spruce and maple? There are lots of suitable woods, but the market says it wants something safe, like what everyone else has. To go a step further, who of you will buy other than an F or A style mandolin? Only a few will buy a 2 point. This is why I make F style mandolins, because that is what the market buys.

[trevor]

I did an experiment with Bill Bussmann having the same A4 made with walnut, maple, mahogany and rosewood back and sides. Details on my website. They all sold but I wouldn't have done the same thing with F5s.

[John Flynn]

I did an experiment with Bill Bussmann having the same A4 made with walnut, maple, mahogany and rosewood back and sides. Details on my website. They all sold but I wouldn't have done the same thing with F5s.
Trevor: I'd really like to see that comparison. I found a link to "Old Wave Great Wood Experiment" on your website, but the link seems to be broken. It could be some firewall thing on my end. Any other way to get it?

[Spruce]

"The Market" tends to dictate what we use.

And "The Market" tends to love tradition...

Thus, we have ash Telecasters, cedar or spruce (not Sitka!!) classicals, Brazilian Rosewood (despite the fact that dealing in BR is like dealing in jaguar skins) D-28 copies, and F5s with Picea rubens...

Man, if I was in love with the qualities of Red Spruce, I'd sure take a look at Douglas Fir.
It can be like Red Spruce on steroids....

[trevor]

John,
The link is down... getting it looked into.

[trevor]

Fixed now.

[Chuck Naill]

Anyone who does not get it about red spruce is just denying the obvious. It what most consumers would want if given the choice between it and Sitka, Englemann, or something from Eastern Europe.

It cuts like a knife through butter musically, has old roots with Martin, Gibson, et all, was almost non existant until the 90's, smells good, and cost more for the good stuff.

I would not think of ordering a custom instrument and specifying Sitka. I like Englemann very well, but spare me the Carpathian. I don't live there. :grin:, but red grows here.

[Spruce]

Anyone who does not get it about red spruce is just denying the obvious.

Obvious?
I could send you 10 samples of spruce, and I can absolutely guarantee that you (or anyone else) could not pick out the Red...

Nor could I if I didn't already know the samples... ;)

So-ooo, if you can't even tell it apart from some nice hard Engelmann, or lots of European that I would have sworn was Red (uneven graining, reddish streaking, hard to the fingernail, "that" smell), it ain't all that "obvious"...

Don't worry.
Bruce Hoadley or the Wisconsin Forest Products Lab couldn't do it either....

(Someday we should really do this)... ;)


It what most consumers would want if given the choice between it and Sitka, Englemann, or something from Eastern Europe.

It's Engelmann...


...was almost non existant until the 90's...

Oh, it existed, and was readily available to those who cared.
It just wasn't widely marketed to guitar and mandolin makers till '90, and the hype hadn't been created yet...

By the way, Red Spruce was milled and marketed to piano makers by a small mill in Dolgeville, NY, and it is thought to be in a high percentage of Steinway pianos.

And out of that mill came some guitar and mandolin wood for the few who were hip to the history...

[Chuck Naill]

Obvious?
I could send you 10 samples of spruce, and I can absolutely guarantee that you (or anyone else) could not pick out the Red...


It's not all about sound, brother. It is also about wanting to play a classic tone wood and/or something local (local to me). I think a good builder can use just about anything.


Oh, it existed, and was readily available to those who cared.
It just wasn't widely marketed to guitar and mandolin makers till '90, and the hype hadn't been created yet...


It did not exist for many builders wishing to use the material. What allowed many to get some was when John Arnold and Ted Davis came upon some Smoky Mountain red spruce. Then later in West Virginia.
muddy sound than red. It's not hype, just depends on what you want.

Personally, I do not have anything but red and Englemann in the house.

I am enjoying the exchange and not trying to upset you, Spruce. Anyone who goes by spruce is a friend of mine. ;)




Please don't say hype, because its simply not hype. Sitka has a much more

[Spruce]

....and/or something local (local to me)....

Now we're talking...
There's a lot to be said for that, and it's one of the reasons I got into this silly business... ;)



What allowed many to get some was when John Arnold and Ted Davis came upon some Smoky Mountain red spruce.

And I was right behind them by a matter of months....

It's amazing that Red has only been widely available for less than 20 years, no??

[Rob Gerety]

What about Lutz?

[Chuck Naill]

Now we're talking...
There's a lot to be said for that, and it's one of the reasons I got into this silly business...


That warmed my heart.


And I was right behind them by a matter of months....

It's amazing that Red has only been widely available for less than 20 years, no??

I got into all this stuff circa 1984. Most of us thought we would never have red spruce available again. In some ways maybe we are just getting out feel.

Where did you log your red spruce.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

speaking of a silly business - how does one go about learning it?
looked at the trees yesterday. encouraging. they ARE getting mature.
and as for mature, me too. i am soon retiring from my day business. still have my property and the accompanying taxes.
hate to turn all the going by hardwood into firewood (but i do), and watch the spruce blow down and sit. I have turned some of those blow downs into 8X8's. enough to build a barn. but I can only use so many at present.
fragile ground - marginal wetland, as well as aesthetics, have kept me from doing major timber harvest for sawlogs. i live in my small forest and we are partners, for this brief moment in time. mutual respect, i would like to think.

[man dough nollij]

Obvious?
I could send you 10 samples of spruce, and I can absolutely guarantee that you (or anyone else) could not pick out the Red...

Nor could I if I didn't already know the samples... ;)



I know this has been hashed out a bunch of times, but I'm really interested in Spruce's input on this. We can order a custom Weber, and pay $125 upgrade from sitka to red spruce, and we get some wood that's not necessarily better? I know you're in business to supply wood, Spruce, and would not like to diminish your own prices... I'm curious: is the difference really from board to board, rather than from species to species? I've been following these threads religiously (why? dunno.) and get the definite impression that Spruce does not believe in the "Engelmann Sound" or the "Red Spruce Sound". That the tap tone depends on the density and other factors, rather than on the species. What'ya say, Spruce? :mandosmiley:

[david blair]

In my mind's eye each wood has it's own sound. I hear differences, ranging from mellow to bright, or muddy though more defined overtones, then increased volume, balancing single notes to the same level as a whole chord, adding then more richness and clarity.
It seems to my ear that each wood keeps it's character finished in lacquer or varnish.

Most people aren't that picky is what it really comes down to here, and settle for "close enough".
redwood, cedar, mahogany, engelmann, sitka, koa, fir, silver, adi, alpine.

[Spruce]

Where did you log your red spruce.

I had a mill near Bristol, Vermont, in the early 90's, and got many logs from a clapboard mill near the mill...

I'd travel up through Maine, too...

But the best stuff came from the Adirondacks, near a little town called Speculator...
Those logs were coded "S1", "S2", etc., and were really my favorite wood...

It might have been second growth, too, which is encouraging...
There ain't no second growth Sitka, cedar, or redwood in any instrument I know of....

[Chuck Naill]

It might have been second growth, too, which is encouraging...
There ain't no second growth Sitka, cedar, or redwood in any instrument I know of.

I like the tight grain of those virgin trees if possible. Below are photos of a couple of violins. The top one is from a 1995 tree from the Smoky mountains brought down by Hurricane Opal which was removed from the park by a local contractor making it accessible to our fellow member John Arnold. The redish fiddle was made from a tree that John and the late Ted Davis bought in West Virginia. The cross section is from the 1995 tree showing year marks going back 400 years. The last photo is of me on a secton of trail where the 1995 tree was from and standing beside an ancient red spruce.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/twelvefret/IMG_0669.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/twelvefret/Smokies_SpruceHistory.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/twelvefret/IMG_0589.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/twelvefret/IMGP0118.jpg

These are John's word discribing the cross section. "Hurricane Opal Smoky Red Spruce (edit)
This is a section from the small end of the smaller log, where I counted 407 rings. That tree was already 14 feet tall in the year 1588. The dates I have highlighted are 1588 (at the center), 1620, 1688 (100 years old), 1776, 1788 (200 years old), 1865, and 1888 (300 years old). (edit)"

[clarksavage]

Thanks for that, Chuck. I recall the long threads on the UMGF discussing the Red Spruce saga, there's so much behind the building of these instruments that is fascinating in and of itself!

That said, just anecdotally, I've run around for the last several years trying to make up for my "poor" youth (when I might buy that Martin guitar or that Gibson mandolin but had to sell it a few months later because I needed food or rent!) I've played a lot of instruments in the guitar and mandolin family. In the under $5k range I was free to dream of buying them. I picked several instruments without any knowledge at all about the species of spruce on the top, I just didn't care much. I wanted a mahogany guitar, a rosewood guitar, and a mandolin, that was my goal.

I ended up purchasing several instruments that I play a whole lot now. My main instruments, my very favorites in sound, have turned out to have red spruce tops, even the mandolin.

Just anecdotal, but significant to me. I hear a certain characteristic from these instruments that is hard to describe, but it made them different from the others in a way I liked. My hearing is probably not average, I am a CW operator from way back (morse code) but I do notice in my 50's that 500 - 700 Hz tones are troublesome to my ears. Not a big contributor to my instrument sounds, but my internal multi-channel equalizer (my ears and brain) do some sort of magic on their own and for some reason, the red spruce tops work well with them :)

Love the stuff. If I was to commission an instrument, I'd probably pay the extra based on my experience.

Clark

[Fiddlesticks]

Hey Bruce, do you realize your name rhymes with "Spruce?" I am a bit puzzeled myself over those Adi markups, most of the mando wood (Red Spruce) we provide here at Old Standard will range in the $20-$25 per billet including bars..this goes to most larger production mando concerns building anything from $8000 mandos to the instruments you see coming out of China...those Chinese concerns sure don't add on a big markup. This is a good grade of Adi, perfect white coloration in most cases..an even grain appearance will only be double this price and it's not much more for the fine perfect growth the guy has pictured from the Smokies. I don't have much trouble finding logs that would compare to the wood in many of the old Loars or "The Gibson" mando type instruments, but finding a perfect mandolin tree of the slower growth/fine grain variety that grew perfectly even every year is a tough go, more difficult than accessing a guitar face sized log...and it's getting harder as each year passes. Much of the most perfect Red Spruce I cut comes from the finer grained side of the tree, usually the southern face. That wood represents the most of difference in consistancy of what is a very consistent wood..it can be slightly less stiff across the grain than the more open grained "muscle" side of the tree.
Vs. Sitka..I've cut some really nice sitka trees and it can be a great wood, the problem there is you need an expert to identify a really good tree as the Sitka can vary quite a bit in density and cross grained stiffness. I don't have much trouble with Adirondack for consistancy. The constant question with Adi is, "Is there enough quality product in this tree to justify buying it?" It has a much harsher environment to grow in and that small size means any kind of a defect can turn a mando sized tree into bars, crate material or firewood!

[Brent Hutto]

I am a total tonewood agnostic. I figure knowing good wood from better wood is the job of the guy getting paid to build the guitar. That said, three of the four best-sounding guitars I've every played had red spruce soundboards. Who knows what that means? They were generally high-$$$ instruments and high-$$$ instruments often have red spruce tops. It's all beyond my pay grade to sort out.

That said, if I were ever having a mandolin built and the guy said "I can do it with either red spruce or Carpathian" I'd be mighty tempted to choose the red. I don't know what makes one wood better than the other but after a while I do start noticing that pattern...

[Mike Bunting]

Kim Walker has an interesting video on Youtube about tone tapping various woods from Brazilian rosewood to the different spruces. Very interesting.
Just search his name with "tone tapping" added.

[foldedpath]

Good tone wood is good tone wood. I find that I like both red and sitka spruces as well as European. Certainly there is a range of quality within each species but if you choose well you will not be disappointed with these varieties. There is also redwood, Port Orford Cedar, western red cedar, Alaska cedar, and the list goes on for suitable tone woods.

"The Market" tends to dictate what we use. As an example, who of you will buy an F style mandolin made with woods other than spruce and maple?

Well, we're not all sheep driven by the marketplace. I bought a redwood-topped F5 Lebeda as my first mandolin after doing a lot of research, and I think it's a great instrument. I wasn't looking for a Loar clone.

It was trust in the builder's reputation, and also knowing a little about cedar and redwood as tonewoods used in guitars that made me comfortable with the decision. Mainly though, it's about trust in the builder. That's always the bottom line.

[Ivan Kelsall]

In answer to Michael Lewis's well put point,i for one, would go for a Mandolin made from woods other than Maple for the back & sides. When i look at some of the Elkhorn Mandolins made by Robb Brophy,from Cocobolo / Mango & Koa,i see some of the most beautiful woods i've EVER seen.Of course the real decider, would always be how it sounded to me,
Ivan

[Bernie Daniel]

....It's amazing that Red has only been widely available for less than 20 years, no??

Can you clarify that statement? The reason for this is the demand was not there? A source of trees (sufficient in size) was not known? I ask this because I thought the tops of the 1920's Gibson mandolins and Martin guitars were made of Adirondack spruce?

[Chuck Naill]

I am a total tonewood agnostic. I figure knowing good wood from better wood is the job of the guy getting paid to build the guitar. That said, three of the four best-sounding guitars I've every played had red spruce soundboards. Who knows what that means? They were generally high-$$$ instruments and high-$$$ instruments often have red spruce tops. It's all beyond my pay grade to sort out.

That said, if I were ever having a mandolin built and the guy said "I can do it with either red spruce or Carpathian" I'd be mighty tempted to choose the red. I don't know what makes one wood better than the other but after a while I do start noticing that pattern...

I had to look twice to realize this thread is a year old. That said, a friend of mine recently took ownership of a 2003 Martin Clarence White D-28. We were able to evaluate a Martin Vintage series, basically the same guitar with a Sitka top, and the CW. There was to both of our ears a noticeable tonal difference, not better or worse, but different.

Another picking buddy has a mid '80's Sitka topped D-18 that had been modified by Brian Kimsey. It is a has a beautiful tone yet more mellow than my D-18.

This has led me to consider Sitka to be a good strummer tone wood versus one that is to be flatpicked. The red tops might allow the notes to be more distinctive and louder. This is just my experience and I am sure some might have had other contrasting experiences.

[Bernie Daniel]

Kim Walker has an interesting video on Youtube about tone tapping various woods from Brazilian rosewood to the different spruces. Very interesting.
Just search his name with "tone tapping" added.

I remember seeing that video (he has several other wood videos too) and I thought the Sitka sounded significantly better than the Adirondack....for the samples he had at least.