Good instruments and great instruments.

[Nick Triesch]

Most guitars and mandolins from small builders and large alike make both good or not so good to great instruments. Just the way it is. For instance over the years I have had Martin guitars that sounded very ordinary and others that would fill a room with sound. Bad one are called turkeys. Why is it that some makers only build great instruments? Some makes come to mind like James Goodall guitars. After 30 years! I have never played one that was not fantastic! Then there are Nuggett and Apitius mandolins. Again the same is true to me that I have never played a so so one. Only great. Don't get me wrong..I have played many great mandolins from all the top shops. I just wonder why they can't figure out how to make each one sound huge. Just a thought. Nick

[Jim Nollman]

I'm curious if you have ever played a bad one by any of the elite among small builders like Mowry, Wilcox, Ellis, Brentrup, Altman, etc.

[GTG]

Well, every tree is different. And every inch of every tree is different from every other inch.
:popcorn:

[sunburst]

Several things.

The main thing is this:
Wood is variable.
In order to have consistent material (wood) from which to build one's instruments one must select it carefully for consistent qualities. The variation that we must accept in out wood must be dealt with in the building process by adjusting things to accomodate the natural variation. The more wood we use (higher production), the more variation we must accept. The more instruments we make (higher production), the less we are able to deal with variation. For those reasons, higher production can lead to less consistency in sound.

We do not fully understand how instruments work and what sound differences we can expect from variation in materials and methods, so results are not 100% predictable. Here again, as production increases and more hands and minds are involved in producing instruments, predictability decreases.

Generally, as individual builders gain experience and knowledge of materials and methods, their instruments become more consistent and predictable.
As factories cycle through employees, turn tasks over to machines, and deal with the ever-changing sources and quality of materials, their consistency can be very difficult to control.

[Santiago]

I think some luthiers command such a high price that they can scrap any mediocre instruments.That must be hard for a working luthier as opposed to an established artist. Greatness comes from real sacrifice. People supporting a family have to balance feeding the kids with creating the perfect mandolin or guitar. Lower-price models, of course, can support the R&D needed to work in the high-end market. The business must be as complicated as the art. I'm glad I'm on the player side of the fence!

[CES]

:popcorn:

[CES]

I think John's observations are probably the most accurate (he does this for a living, of course)...an experienced builder who does it pretty much the same way every time, and knows how to "read" wood and when alter his approach (re: thicknessing, bracing, etc), will produce a consistently better product.

I played a very nice Ibanez Cedar top/Rosewood B/S fingerpicker the other day in a local shop(priced around 7 or 8 hundred, I think) that sounded as nice or nicer than some of the much higher priced guitars I've played lately. The exact same model on the the wall next to it was really no better than any other import...there were $150 all laminate guitars I would have picked over that second guitar. Both from the same factory (theoretically anyway) made of "identical" materials (which can never really be the case from guitar to guitar, but...) and with a very similar setup, but worlds apart in tone.

I think some of the larger companies "get away with" selling the occasional mediocre to poor instrument based on sheer volume or, in Martin or Gibson's case, reputation. There are those that just want the prettiest guitar they can find, or want a Gibson, and so they get one without really knowing what they're getting. A smaller builder's reputation and future business lies with each instrument they build, to an extent, and most have higher standards, because they have to. I''ve seen a couple displays where builders had instruments that were experiments that worked out but that were made with less than perfect stock, or that they said had the "feel, but not the tone of ones I sell, so I use it at exhibits like these," so it's not that they never make a less than monster mando, I think they're probably just better at maximizing their materials' potential and more discriminating in what they put out there.

[allenhopkins]

If you own it, it's a good instrument.

If I own it, it's a great instrument.

Simple as that.

[Santiago]

If I play it, it's a dud, if Chris Thile plays it, it's a Dude...

[SternART]

Bravo....well said Santiago! ;)

[Capt. E]

Never played a bad Altman or a bad Ellis. Have definitely come across some Gibson's that were less than stellar. I would add that in the lower tier, Collings and Weber are both very consistent.

[sgarrity]

Why do some cars just run and run to 200k with very little trouble and others start making monthly visits to the mechanic just past the manufacturer's warranty?

[acousticnotes]

Most guitars and mandolins from small builders and large alike make both good or not so good to great instruments. Just the way it is. For instance over the years I have had Martin guitars that sounded very ordinary and others that would fill a room with sound. Bad one are called turkeys. Why is it that some makers only build great instruments? Some makes come to mind like James Goodall guitars. After 30 years! I have never played one that was not fantastic! Then there are Nuggett and Apitius mandolins. Again the same is true to me that I have never played a so so one. Only great. Don't get me wrong..I have played many great mandolins from all the top shops. I just wonder why they can't figure out how to make each one sound huge. Just a thought. Nick

I own several Goodall guitars. I like them. That said I have owned other hand made guitars that were considered top of the line (waiting in some cases in line two years to get) and were nothing special to my ears. But sound is pretty relative. A hard thing to describe. What you like I might not. So if you find a maker or brand you like based on sound you should stick with it and hopefully it can be repeated. For myself I recorded a lot which gives me the ability to "change things" when it comes to sound. I look for playability first when I buy an instrument intended for that purpose. But overall it has to have three things for me to say it's a great instrument. It has to be pleasing to look at, have the playability AND great sound....than I would say it is a great instrument.

Joe

[Big Blue]

I think there is a lot to be said for personal preference too. My "Dude" may sound like a dud to you etc. etc.

I have not heard a "Bad" Martin or Gibson. I have heard some that are more boomy and others that are brighter. I like some better than others and so on but I have never heard a "bad" one. I usually think the owner wants that sound they are getting or else they would get (or are looking for) a different instrument.

[Jim]

I have not heard a "Bad" Martin or Gibson. I have heard some that are more boomy and others that are brighter. I like some better than others and so on but I have never heard a "bad" one. I usually think the owner wants that sound they are getting or else they would get (or are looking for) a different instrument.
I guess Bad is as subjective a word as good, but I have heard and played some bad from both of the above mentioned companys as well as alot of others. I'm pretty much of the opinion it's the wood quality when you get up to the price of a Martin or a Gibson where the quality control (these days) is generally pretty good.

[Santiago]

Yeah, I love and greatly respect both Martin and Gibson guitars, and not every one I've played has been stellar. I don't know if I'd term any of them 'bad' instruments but there are variations. It's not like a car where you're putting mechanical parts together and they should all be uniform. There's a lot of handcrafting in there.

[shiloh]

Hey Nick,
I agree with the above thoughts - an eye for selection of wood (and having a wallet large enough to purchase it), location where the wood was grown.... The growing season(s) of the tree(s) and the harshness or mildness of the winter(s). But, having said all that, if you give the same identical piece of wood to different builders, why do some build with great and consistent tone, yet others don't? Don't know. Different hands are building the instruments in the large "shops" vs. a Sim Daley building all the instruments.
BTW, I'm still trying to play as good as you do. How come I play a tune that you taught me and it just doesn't sound as good as when you play it?
Talent.
Jill

[Nick Triesch]

Hi Jill!!! Hey, I think you play mandolin just fine. I think your style is very good. We just need to jam more! I think that you and John answered my question very well. Thank you. But I also think it has to do with plain luck . I remember a Weber custom Bitteroot at Buffalo Bros. a few years ago that sounded like your mandolin. Dang....I should have bought it on the spot! Thank you all! Nick

[sunburst]

But I also think it has to do with plain luck .

Yep, but the more I build, the luckier I get! ;)

[Rick Schmidlin]

Most guitars and mandolins from small builders and large alike make both good or not so good to great instruments. Just the way it is. For instance over the years I have had Martin guitars that sounded very ordinary and others that would fill a room with sound. Bad one are called turkeys. Why is it that some makers only build great instruments? Some makes come to mind like James Goodall guitars. After 30 years! I have never played one that was not fantastic! Then there are Nuggett and Apitius mandolins. Again the same is true to me that I have never played a so so one. Only great. Don't get me wrong..I have played many great mandolins from all the top shops. I just wonder why they can't figure out how to make each one sound huge. Just a thought. Nick


I feel this way about Collings.:cool:

[robertr]

In addition to all the above comments, I would also like to add that the tone of a mandolin, as in all stringed instruments, is extraordinarily sensitive to being in tune. My mandos really "wake up" when they near perfectly tuned, and the neighboring strings can ring sympathetically, adding to the tone. When comparing two instruments, how "in tune" they are can really alter your perception of their tone quality. Furthermore, I just downloaded an iPhone app by Perterson, a strobe tuner, which can help you get a string to within a cent or so of "in tune". Really can make a big difference. Highly recommended.

[Charley wild]

If you own it, it's a good instrument.

If I own it, it's a great instrument.

Simple as that.
Yes. YES!

[D C Blood]

And I would submit that Ken Ratcliff, with his Silverangels and Economandos, is one of the most consistent builders in the business today. I've never heard a "clunker" from Ken.