best $ 5 K F-style

[jimbob]

OK...I have seen many posts about the best beginner mandolin, the best $ 1500 F-style, the best $ 2000 mando and so on...let's assume we are going to splurge...I have a very good Weber Yellowstone but I want to go up one more step. What is the best $ 5000 mando...do I buy a Gibson or look at the up-and-coming independent luthiers ? I don't mind a used instrument...in fact would probably prefer one in the right condidtion. I really like some of the gear I have seen from the independent shops, but for $ 3-5 K, there are a lot of options. I have waffled several times on this...get on a waiting list for an idependent or buy a Gibson...I know there are many opinions and it depends on the specific instrument. I am just soliciting those opinions for consideration. Thanks

I bet it's tough to find a good Bluegrass jam in Angola...... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[JimRichter]

My opinion--and it's not meant to offend Big Joe, Charlie, or any of the Gibson folk--is that if I were buying new, I would go with an independent luthier. Used, I think the playing field is a bit more open between Gibson and anyone else, though I would still choose the independent luthier. Though, of course, for $5K you might consider the vintage Gibson market and try to get an F4, a snakehead AZ, or even an F2 before the market goes totally bananas on them (already seems to be with the F4).

Since I've been one who has been fickle with the flavor of the month, I've gone through many mandos until, I think and hope, I've reached the one that is right for me (a Wayne Henderson F5 I bought from Maverick Hurley). I bought a Sam Bush F5 new, played it for over a year, and by the time I went to trade around/sell it, I saw the value decrease significantly. This, I think, is basically true of the signature artist model Gibsons, cause they really are niche instruments--the Bush in particular. For the money I spent on the Bush, I could have bought something from a Randy Wood, Kimble, Duff, etc. and had something with varnish finish and a pretty decent resale value if it came to that.

I traded the Bush for a Paul Duff F5 and by the time I sold it to buy Mav's Henderson, I actually made money on the Duff. The used independent luthier market --for either a respected luthier or an up and coming one--is a lot stronger than the used Gibson market. It's possible you might buy from an up and coming luthier--like Kimble--and see the used market explode like it did for Dudenbostel. I'm not a speculator, per se, but I do appreciate the value in things. The tone will be there in a respected luthiers instrument and ultimately I think it is a better financial concern. With Gibson, I think the Charlie Derrington signed mandos (which are well beyond the $5K price point) probably will be much valued in the future. If I bought another Gibson, I would get a Master Model cause they're terrific instruments and really are worth the price, because I think that value will be there for years to come.

Just my own observations after going through several mandos.

[ellisppi]

I would order a Weins, they were less than 5k last time I looked

[J. Mark Lane]

I do not purport to be any kind of expert. In fact, I'm really looking at the same question right now. But just to contribute to the dialog, I'll offer a couple of my own thoughts.

I have commissioned two (and owned three) high end acoustic guitars, from small but noted luthiers, and have played many more. I have also commissioned one (and owned two, and played a few more) custom mandolins (these of a more moderate level). I have also owned a number of "production" instruments that would be considered good quality.

My experience is actually pushing me back in the direction of the large makers, like Gibson, Weber, possibly Collings (funny, now they almost fit that description). The custom instruments I have owned have been beautiful, and at least the guitars have been exception in terms of tone, playability and workmanship. But...they have been finnicky and problematic over time. I can tell of neck resets, poor fret work that required re-doing, lousy bridges and nuts (carved poorly or with inconsistent string spacing or odd string locations), etc. I have had cracks and have had major repairs done. Consider -- the large producers can afford to have substantial stocks of wood, maintained in carefully controlled conditions, from which to select...and can test and reject imperfect pieces with greater abandon.

A lot of this stuff (like the nuts etc) can be "easily" fixed...for a bit of cash, and some time away from the instrument. Some of it is not so easy. Much of it, no doubt, would not exist at all with many of the better builders. Probably. Still...with a Gibson or a Weber, I know I can call the company and get excellent service, fast and effective...they can afford to take a hit on it to keep a customer happy. They can afford to back their products much more than a small shop.

As much as I like and respect the small builders, I'm probably leaning toward a Gibson, Weber or Collings as my next mando. (And my next guitar will probably be another Martin.)

Mark

[August Watters]

I think the big names have set a very high standard that is difficult for small builders to achieve. No matter how much attention a small builder lavishes on a one-of-a-kind instrument, it takes a LOT of study, skill, experience and resources to make a mandolin better than, say, a Gibson A9 or Collings MT. The result is that we're seeing lots of small-builder instruments that don't compare well to the big names.

That being said, however, I think that the best small builders are making instruments with refinements you won't find anywhere else. The sensitivity, range of dynamics, variety of tonal color, and overall expressive range of the best small builders makes their prices worth every cent, to me. And some of them are less expensive than the big names.

August W

[jjboone101]

the base Wiens price is now $5500 and I suspect that will go up even further once he gains more attention, like the upcoming builder profile in Mandolin Magazine this fall...

[Ken Sager]

Here's a couple pieces of free, yet friendly, advice:

* Play a few from different builders with mandolins in
#your price range and then YOU decide which is best.
#Seek 'em out and pick on 'em.

* Decide whether you're trying to LOOK like you spent
#$5k on a mandolin (recognizable brand name), or SOUND
#like you spent $5k on a mandolin.

I realize you're asking for a list of builders to consider, but everybody will have different opinions of different builders. What others have spent $10k on I wouldn't want to spend $5k for.

So why not just find what YOU like in that price range by shopping around, playing and listening to several different builders' mandolins, and then buying the one that picks you.

Just trying to be helpful,
Ken

[JeffS]

For me $5k is a lot of money. If I were spending that I'd go with a big name like Gibson where the warranty will be for my lifetime and not the luthier's lifetime. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But I don't know if the independent luthiers even offer much of a warranty to begin with so it is probably a moot point anyway. I don't think I could spend 5k on something I couldn't play and hear first though. That would be hard to do.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I would wait for a used good/well known independant small builder mandolin to be offered at a low price. Its a buyers market and there have been instances where Hendersons, BRW's, Randy Woods, Apitius's and many other well respected makers mandolins have been available for well under their normal going prices. Now is the time to find the right mandolin for you for the right price-maybe that is a Gibson-i'm still 100% for buying used-Value is the name of the game in the $5,000 mndolin market and those values are out there.

[Dan Adams]

Duh? Hilburn!!

[mandoJeremy]

I agree plinker8! I love my Bush model but I can tell you right now that if I had the extra money my first choice would be one of Jim Hilburn's mandos. I am still telling you guys that he is going to be the next Dude or Gil. He knows perfection too well and it shows in his work. Of course, I think Darby (Rose mandos) is also one to watch out for. Those two guys have impressed me so much here on the Cafe. Of course, all of the builders impress me by doing what they can do but those two just stand out to me. As far as price goes, I would order a Rose just because he is a little farther behind in being "known" than Jim (no offense Darby!). A Rose is also on my wishlist one day! Another would be sunburst (John Hamlett). His work looks mighty fine!

[Mandolin Guy]

For my self i would go with a private builder. I had a guitar from a private builder. Loved it. Had it for 2 years and made $2000.00 profit. But that's just me. It all depends on what YOU like. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[BrazAd]

Jim,

Do your homework, then order from a custom luthier that your gut tells you is right for you, and never look back. I understand the argument that it takes a small luthier a lot of time and attention to do what the big shops have been doing for years. That sounds good, without serious examination.

The opposite is more true, however. A serious, qualified luther who is proud of his work is going to give YOUR mandolin a much more thorough and personal touch in the building process, every step along the way, than any factory worker is going to do. His reputation and livelihood are depending on it!

I've had 2 custom guitars built, and both are incredible instruments. One was by a relatively new builder (mine was his 16th overall), and had a fret problem. He paid to have it totally refretted by Joe Glaser in Nashville (AND setup by Joe), and it has been great ever since. The other was by a noted luthier with a lot of experience, and his guitar has been awesome from day one.

With those 2 good experiences under my belt, I felt safe in ordering my first ever mandolin, 2 months ago. You can read a thread here, right under this one, that has a few pics of my new Cole 'A' mando. Ron was a dream to work with, and if he can produce a mando this nice for an "A1+", as he calls it, what kind of detail will be there for a F5?

The good news is that there are SO many great luthiers out there, most of them reasonable in their pricing, that it's hard to make a mistake as long as you do your homework first!

Best,

Gary
Atlanta

[jim_n_virginia]

without a doubt, if I had 5K to spend, it would be on a Gibson F-5L or Weber Fern... I might have to buy used but thats OK... might be broke in just right!

[pickinNgrinnin]

Here is a way to save yourself $500.00 and get a great buy:

http://www.massstreetmusic.com/show_indv.php?item=01775&img=1

This Bill Davis Artist F5, is an incredible Mandolin! The Mass Street Music site declares "Davis has reached a level of fit and finish that is equal to any maker out there." It's the total package and could stand side by side with the best of them.

[dj9124]

If you are looking for $5000 worth of tone for half the cost check into Rose mandolins by Darby Boofer. Just received my new Rose yesterday and it is an awesome sounding mando, a tone monster for sure. I am alot like Jim Richter and have gone through more than my fair share of mandolins looking for THE one and believe I have finally found it. The comments about Darby's mandolins are right on in my opinion and my new Rose far exceeded my expectations.
Dave

[bradlynch09]

check out the collings MF. they go for about 3,850. The good thing about a production model is that you can play a few of the same model, and sometimes on really stands out. Collings builds way fewer mandolins than say, gibson or weber, and their instruments have a much more 'artisan' feel...and sound. I played about 20 mandos before I got mine, up to about the 5000 dollar mark. The collings is, I think, way under priced. just play as many as you can...and don't overlook the vintage F4's. they are really special and a sound investment to boot! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[addcourt]

My money is on Hilburn--3 yr wait and a bit more than $5K for his varnish model but one I'm willing to stand in line for. #I currently have a Master Model which should serve me well in the meantime. #I agree with Jim R. regarding the Master Model and feel like it will hold value over time.

[Ted Eschliman]

For me $5k is a lot of money. #If I were spending that I'd go with a big name like Gibson where the warranty will be for my lifetime and not the luthier's lifetime.
This brings up a good point.
When my wife and I were trying to plug our infant daughter into a day care (6 years ago), we contemplated the benefits of a small, one-person "in-home" service, verses a more established larger "institutional" business.
With the "in-home" supposedly, you have more accountablity, personal attention. With the "institutional," you have the collective force of workers with childcare degrees, a solid cash flow base, and often a proven community track record of longevity.
The downside, the "in-home" is subject to that lone person being in good health 5 days a week, committed to staying in the business, and solvent enough to not shut down the doors. The "instituional" might be a numbers game, and assembly-line approach to the care and attention of a large (but government regulated) amount of children.
The analogy to luthiers is strikingly similar.
We've seen one particular builder recently go through ill health, have to close down his shop temporarily, leaving deposits paid in good faith now uncollectable. We've seen certain large manufacturers accused of playing "numbers," rolling out product with less than stellar consistency.
We had our best luck with the larger day care, we never worried about that call at work because an employee was sick, and they offered great educational programs, rather than plopping her in front of a video all day.
Small builders truly can be the best "deal" out there, but they are mortals. More "risk" certainly, but when it goes right, it's great. Ultimately, you want to know others who are familiar not only with their products, but their work ethic, attention to detail, and (overlooked sometimes...) their ability to get along with people.
With Gibson, Rigel, Weber, (and other crews I'm surely missing) you're getting a "team" of builders, quality craftsmen who can fill in. I think that translates into value (worth including in the decision making process).
Oh, and I wouldn't overlook a Rigel G5 in the search...