Fretting Hand First Finger Woes

[Soupy1957]

For some reason (maybe from an old hacksaw injury from YEARS ago, on top of my pointer finger middle joint; which I don't like to think about.....lol), I've been experiencing a sort of strain in my pointer finger of my fretting hand, when practicing.

The angle of that first finger bend, is frequently folded in about as much as I can do it, to play some notes. (Essentially, if you took your fretting hand pointer finger, and folded it in on itself as much as you can......THAT'S the position this finger ends up in on many notes).

Not sure if I'm explaining this very well, but I guess the question has to do with wondering if anyone else has felt tension or cramping in that first finger, or are ya'll playin so fast you don't have TIME to feel the burn.......lol.

-Soupy1957

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Hey Soupy,
snap a picture of your finger as it would appear when fretting and post it.
I have a feeling you're flexing farther than you need to in order to fret cleanly. So you may have an easily correctible technique issue.

Daniel

[KCrook]

Soupy - I experienced a similar problem as I began to work on the G scale.

My instructor had emphsized the need for me to keep the rest of my fingers down on their current positions before I really needed to move them, and as I transitioned from the A strings to the E strings playing the note on the 2nd fret of the E string (1st string) with the index finger of my left had, leaving my 2nd and 3rd fingers down in their positions on the A string (2nd string), I experienced a sharp pain across the top of the 'highly bent' knuckle on the index finger of my left hand, and it became worse as I practiced.

I had done it before without pain, but I was probably cheating with my other fingers which lessened the strain on my 'highly bent' knuckle. After I experienced the pain episode, I practiced other things on the Mando, and played the guitar, staying away from that position that really bent my knuckle for a few days. After 5 days or so, I tried again, and I was able to perform the scale without pain.

I have spent a decent portion of my early adult life performing manual labor (carpenter, lather, laborer, ditch digger, etc.) and I think that during those days, my knuckles lost some of their flexibilty (I can't count the number of times I hit my left hand with my lath hatchet...). Learning to play the Mando has forced me to 'stretch' those tendons and ligaments some over time so that I can get those weird bends that only a Mando seems to require. :-)

While I am certainly not a medical professional of any kind, for me it just took some patience and an understanding to give my hand some rest if it started to hurt.

I hope that helps.

[300win]

I have pain in that particular finger sometimes that is differant than the usual pain I have from arthritus. In 1998 I ripped that finger to the bone hooking up a piece of equipment on a tractor. Sometimes it gets stiff and burns a little, but you can't stop playing over that.

[Soupy1957]

So you want a picture of what I'm talking about eh? Ok.....

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/Soupy1957/PointerFingerBend.jpg

[papa willie]

Soupy,

I don't know if I can explain this properly but I'll try. If you point the fingers of
your fretting hand more toward the bridge it may help. Good luck!

[onassis]

Papa's suggestion is good. I know Mike Marshall talks in his DVD about approaching the neck with the hand at about a 45 degree angle (as opposed to perpendicular), like one would hold a violin neck. This might allow for a little more bending room for the index finger. Of course, this is for single note play. Chording, that's a whole different story.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Hey Soupy,
Yep. That's what I thought. Is your avatar an accurate depiction of the position your body is in when you play? I suspect maybe it is. That would make sense with your left hand positioning.

OK Here goes...
Find a straight back chair with no arms.
Place you mandolin in it's case at your feet when you sit in the chair.
Remove the mandolin from the case and close the lid.
Sit up straight without using the back of the chair, get your thighs clear of the seat too.
Rest your left foot on the case.
Place the bottom point of the mandolin on the inside of your right thigh and rest the top point on your left thigh.
Position your left hand as though you had just karate-chopped through the neck of the mandolin (pinky to floor, thumb to ceiling, but relaxed)
Touch the neck of the mandolin (the weight of it should be more or less fully supported by your lap) with the top side of your index finger just above the palm knuckle joint.
Rest your thumb on top of the neck. Try to leave a gap between the back of the neck and webby part of your hand between the index finger and thumb.

Now reach with your index and middle fingers for a two-finger G chord.

You shouldn't be curling your index finger now. Am I right?

Technique tip: try to keep your palm facing the body of the mandolin rather than facing the bottom of the neck. This will be nearly impossible when playing 4 finger chop chords, but returning to this position --after chopping-- to play melodies and harmonies should be easy.

Hope this helps!

Daniel

[Soupy1957]

When I practice, I usually stand, with the mando slung over my right shoulder (I used to do a guitar slinging, but have been trying to use the left shoulder, since that suggestion was made to me by a guy I am hoping to begin taking lessons from soon).

The Avatar picture was taken when I was just horsing around and had the mandolin with me for the heck of it (I tend to carry it around everywhere, when I can).

When I play, my palm faces the body of the mandolin, most of the time, but I find that there are times when I'm more parallel to the neck, like when I'm playing a 3-fingered "D" chord, (i.e.: 745X).

The scrunching (for lack of a better descriptive term) of my pointer is more prevelant when I'm playing 4-finger bluegrass chords like the "A" chord, (9745) or any other chords up and down the neck with that same shape.

Part of my problem MAY be that I'm still palming the neck and need to be more "away" from it when I play. Perhaps keeping my thumb further toward the back of the neck and not holding the neck so close to my palm will help.

My bigger issue, is the discomfort in my pointer finger, when "scrunched."

-Soupy1957

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Yeah. It sounds like you need to ease up on the "death grip". Allow your thumb to stay on the top of the neck. Try not to make a fist when you play four finger chords.

If you need to make a fist to fret cleanly, your mando may need a setup.

Good luck!

Daniel

[Marc Berman]

I had a similar problem with my pinky when I first started. I found stretching helped. I place my hands together palm to palm and slowly bend my fingers back.

[Soupy1957]

I was looking at some training videos on YouTube last night, and was re-visiting Brad Laird's offerings there. Ever notice how he holds his thumb on his fretting hand? It's like it's parallel to the neck!!! Woa!!

I'd think HE has pain!! But in a different finger!!

-Soupy1957

[Ivan Kelsall]

The small frets on a Mandolin do require us to bunch our fingers up far more than playing a Guitar or Banjo (or any longer scale instrument). What you have may (hopefully), simply be finger strain from overdoing it a bit. I'd just rest it for a day or so & see how it goes. I have trigger finger & tendonitis in my left hand,& to a lesser extent in my right hand as well. I've just had to rest up my own left hand for a couple of days. I have tendonitis in my left first finger & it stiffens up a whole lot at times,especially the first joint & it gets very painful.
I had an op.on my left hand ring finger & thumb around 8-9 years ago for trigger finger.One of the things my physio. told me told me to do,is to soak my hand in water as hot as to be comfortable,then to get a facecloth soaked in hot water & just to wring the living blazes out of the cloth a few times. It applies a lot of tension to the tendon & then relaxes it & it does work. If it gets really painful,i just rest it.
If you're worried about any long term problem with your finger,then a trip to the sawbones is the only thing to do,
Ivan

[Soupy1957]

I think you're right, Ivan..........I may be just expecting too much out of my fingers at my age.......and need to ease off the practice a tad........too much can't be all that good for me. (Even IF I like to play it every free moment I get).

-Soupy1957

[ELSOL102]

My index knuckle is sore too...I have a tendency to tendonitis...I take fish oil twice a day...and try to stretch the hands and I try to rest the hands...rest is key...take a breaks...I play the street and have had repetitive strain injuries off and on...the only solution is not to overdo it...but I do believe getting lots of omega 3s helps to reduce any inflammation and it is good for ya. I have had trigger finger in my ring finger and had to really rest for awhile till it went away...the doctor told me to tie my fingers together and don't move for o6 weeks...well I didn't do that but resting and not playing for more than 10 mins a day (I had been taking a class at the time) helped to get rid of lllllit....Good luck.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Soupy - I don't think either of us are 'spring chickens', (i'm 64), & these things just turn up due to wear & tear over the years. I'm usually ok to play most times,but if i overdo it,i get the pains & just rest my hands. When i began playing Mandolin,i'd play for 4 to 5 hours solid every day. Maybe not the best idea thinking on it,but if i have a tendoncy to tendonitis,there's nothing i can do about it except rest my hand when i need to. The weird thing is,that even if my left hand gets really stiffened up,after 10 minutes of playing or so,it's as free as a bird. According to my doctor,the tendons etc. 'self lubricate'. I'm working on adding a little lubrication of my own care of Mr Jack Daniels every now & again, & a quick rub down on the inside with a bottle of Southern Comfort works really well :grin:. These days i still get 2 to 3 hours a day in - but with frequent rest periods & i've increased my 'noodling' to compensate - no need to play flat out doing that ,
Ivan;)

[Mike Bromley]

Not sure if I'm explaining this very well, but I guess the question has to do with wondering if anyone else has felt tension or cramping in that first finger, or are ya'll playin so fast you don't have TIME to feel the burn.......lol.

-Soupy1957

Sounds like trigger finger....does the finger lock in a bent position? Do you have trouble straightening it once it's bent?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Mike - I have both Trigger Finger (middle) & Tendonitis (first) in my left hand,as diagnosed by my Doc.Although the first joint in my first finger 'clicks' in a similar way to the 'triggering' of my middle finger & is stiff,it was diagnosed as Tendonitis.Trigger Finger does exactly that,sticks & then pops out as the lump in my tendon pushes through the Flexor Sheath which attaches it to the bone in my hand. The op.i had about 8 years ago on my left ring finger,for TF,simply cut a little 'vee' notch in the Flexor Sheath to allow the tendon to pass easily through.
Soupy could have either it seems.What he has seems very similar to my first finger trouble,but his own Doc.would need to diagnose.TF doesn't 'usually' occur in the finger itself,it's a problem with the finger's 'pulley system' in the hand. Either way,if any of us suffer from either one,rest is important & physiotherapy can help ease the problem. Surgery,if needed,does get rib of the TF permanently. I'd go for that on my middle finger,but the 3 months of physio. & not being able to play,just doesn't sound appealing at the moment. One last thing - i mentioned in an earlier thread re.this problem, that i currently use an anti-inflamitory gel on my TF. It was prescrobed for a different problem,but i've used it to rub into the area of the palm of my hand,where the swelling in my middle finger tendon can be felt 'triggering',& it has helped to reduce the swelling qute a bit,
Ivan

[Jill McAuley]

Interesting thing I noticed this afternoon: I was was walking down to a little nearby park to play (and give my poor long suffering mandolin hating dog a wee break!) and stopped into a cafe to get a coffee. Proceeded to carry on towards the park, mandolin case in right hand, hot coffee in left. Well once I got sat down on a bench and started playing I immediately noticed that my playing was smooth, as if I'd "warmed up" already. Usually I have to run thru a few tunes before the left hand feels really fluid but today from the get go things were effortless - aided by the heat from the coffee cup perhaps?

Cheers,
Jill

[Ivan Kelsall]

That's a possibility Jim. Heat does help.The way it relieves pain is that our nerves transmit heat signals faster than most other pain signals & the 'heat' signal reaches the brain faster & 'damps' out the pain signal. My regime in a morning, is to soak my left hand in nice warm water & to wring out a face cloth soaked in warm water a few times - it really does the trick & i don't have to worry too much about my left hand fingers triggering or being stiff'
All hand problems,if chronic,need to be refered to a Doc.,regardless of what we ourselves do. I've got a couple of steroid injections waiting for me if & when i need them,that's been decided between me & my own Doc.,but if i can get by without,as he said "you don't want to go sticking needles in if they're not absolutely required" . At least i know that i've got a 'fall back' if i need it,
Ivan

[Mike Snyder]

I'm trying to lay off responding to threads where I have little of consequence to add, but this one is right up my alley. I get lots of hand cramps the first two or three hours of jamming, and I think I know why. I'm missing about 5/8 inch off my fretting hand first finger from a long ago tangle with a power tool. Got a nice hard pad on there, and it doesn't blister as easily as it used to, but she's gone..gone..gone, crying won't bring her back. The angle of hand that I'm forced to use, especially to work the G string on those Monroe songs, puts my hand badly out of position. So...we do what we have to do to get done what needs done. I really sympathize with Soupy and anyone else with issues related to the fret hand. I find myself watching pickers hands frequently, and wonder at the sheer LENGTH of them. You can see my stub finger in my avatar, but you may need a magnifying glass.